What's in a name?

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" goes the old saying in response to schoolyard type taunts.

It's struck me recently in reading and listening to various commentators, journalists, and bloggers on here and elsewhere about the language that is used to describe various elements and factions within the rugby community.

At International time, out come all the the usual shorthands for describing your own team and those of the "enemy"

Taffs versus the arrogant English or Poms, Jocks vs the Saffas, Paddies vs the Frogs, convicts vs the sheepshaggers, and so the list goes on.  For the most part, it's all harmless banter and good fun.

When it comes to arguments between the hemispheres, the names become a bit more charged and pointed in their intent - The antiquated Home Unions, the NH-dominated IRB, say the southerners. "basketball scores, and soft scrummaging" comes the reply from the north.  Again, harmless, and often inaccurate name calling to get the jibes in.

In the current row around the Heineken Cup, it's been interesting to note how each side describes the other.

PRL is always careful in describing itself and the French as the Premiership or Aviva Premiership and the Top 14, (but rarely the Orange Top 14).   The other teams are variously described as the Celtic Unions and oh Italy, The Rabbo, the Rabo teams, the Celtic League, the Magners, the RaboPro12, the Rabodirect, etc, etc.  Rarely, if ever, is the league called by its proper name, the PRO12.   It's worth noting that commentators such as George Hook, Tony Ward, Conor O'Shea and Jonathan Davies also refer to the league as the Rabo.  And on blogs such as these, Rabo has become common parlance for the PRO 12.

So are the other descriptors just careless language, or an intentional putdown - as in "I can't really remember what they're actually called because they're so insignificant" - or just easy, albeit lazy, shorthand?  

For example, in today's Telegraph, Mark McCafferty is quoted thus:
“This season former Heineken Cup winners London Wasps and Bath Rugby are in the Amlin Challenge Cup so if it is good enough for them why isn’t it good enough for teams from the Rabo Pro Direct? Last season the only Rabo Direct side in the Amlin was the Dragons."  

Is it not odd that a key senior figure in rugby does not know the actual name of a league that he is hoping to entice into a new, better European competition?

Austin Healey in the same paper writes:  "If I am being brutally honest and, if you take your nationality out of it, the Celts and the Italians have had it good for too long.  For most of them it has not mattered where they finish in their league - now called the RaboDirect Pro 12."   He goes on to write later in the article: "...It has been a wonderful situation for those teams in the Celtic League for a long time and it has helped them grow their games in those countries....."  "If I had a chance of throwing my money behind an Anglo-French competition or what is now called the RaboDirect, I know which one I would support."

The language is also changing around the description of the Heineken Cup.  Even though there's actually two comps, the Heineken or Heino even, often serves as a descriptor for both.   More lately, the more formal titles have started to emerge, the European Cup and the Challenge Cup as various parties start to talk about a new European competition.  Maybe it's just a coincidence, but Paul O'Connell was quoted in an article today about future games coming up for Munster - "Leinster, two ERC games, and then Glasgow."

Is it just different names?  Accidental or coincidental?  Or more purposely, intentional putdown?

Have your say.

This happens all the time. Brand names take over. A lot of people still refer to vacum cleaners as Hoovers for example. Its the way of the world.

Can you ever imagine the Heineken cup being called anything but the Heineken cup?

2 season ago we were the Vodacom Stormers, now we're the DHL Stormers.

Sponsors come and go... even those who have a long relationship with their club/competition etc will come to an end...its business, when a contract is up both sides are free to negotiate for their own best purposes.

Pot Hale wrote:"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" goes the old saying in response to schoolyard type taunts.

It's struck me recently in reading and listening to various commentators, journalists, and bloggers on here and elsewhere about the language that is used to describe various elements and factions within the rugby community.

At International time, out come all the the usual shorthands for describing your own team and those of the "enemy"

Taffs versus the arrogant English or Poms, Jocks vs the Saffas, Paddies vs the Frogs, convicts vs the sheepshaggers, and so the list goes on.  For the most part, it's all harmless banter and good fun.

When it comes to arguments between the hemispheres, the names become a bit more charged and pointed in their intent - The antiquated Home Unions, the NH-dominated IRB, say the southerners. "basketball scores, and soft scrummaging" comes the reply from the north.  Again, harmless, and often inaccurate name calling to get the jibes in.

In the current row around the Heineken Cup, it's been interesting to note how each side describes the other.

PRL is always careful in describing itself and the French as the Premiership or Aviva Premiership and the Top 14, (but rarely the Orange Top 14).   The other teams are variously described as the Celtic Unions and oh Italy, The Rabbo, the Rabo teams, the Celtic League, the Magners, the RaboPro12, the Rabodirect, etc, etc.  Rarely, if ever, is the league called by its proper name, the PRO12.   It's worth noting that commentators such as George Hook, Tony Ward, Conor O'Shea and Jonathan Davies also refer to the league as the Rabo.  And on blogs such as these, Rabo has become common parlance for the PRO 12.

The full name of the league is not the PRO 12 it is the RaboDirect PRO12 according to the league's website.

So Austin Healey was right to call it that?

Cannot be right. If Healey is ever correct, the surely the world will stop spinning?

It was the Celtic League for 5 years. The Magners League for 5 years.

Then it re branded at the end of the 10/11 season as the Pro12.

Partly I suppose that it was no longer just a league, it had play offs for the previous 2 years.

And Partly to reflect that 2 Italian teams had joined the previous year. Meaning that it was no longer exclusively "Celtic" (what ever that means) and that there were now 12 teams.

Rabo Direct signed up for 4 years, but are bailing at the end of the season after 3. Mainly because they have no presence in any other teritory than the Republic of Ireland.

I imagine it will still be called the "Pro 12" next season, whoever sponsors it.

Should have called it Super 12?

or "semi-pro 12" if they don't sign up to the new deal.

I think we need to invent a new name along the lines of 'the Jeff'

lostinwales wrote:I think we need to invent a new name along the lines of 'the Jeff'

That was a debate on V1, liw. A geordie bloke came up with the name (plus later a photo) of his kid's pet hamster. No equivalent name for the Rabo (or whatever it was called at the time) ever stuck.

The consensus was that to remove corporate sponsorship from league names was desirable iirc.

I refer to the Premiership, the Celtic League, and the Top 14. For two reasons:
1. Clearly laziness when typing.
2. And seriously, each of the three leagues will survive long after the commercial names have changed a dozen times. I don't really care if Aviva or Domino's or K-Y sponsors the Premiership (as long as someone forks over some dough). They are simply that - the Premiership. Same for the Celtic League and the Top 14.

In fact, what would we do if Durex (the sponsor of my men's team here in the US) sponsors the Premiership, Kotex sponsors the Celtic League and Pampers sponsors the Top 14?

doctor_grey wrote:I refer to the Premiership, the Celtic League, and the Top 14.  For two reasons:
1.  Clearly laziness when typing.
2.  And seriously, each of the three leagues will survive long after the commercial names have changed a dozen times.  I don't really care if Aviva or Domino's or K-Y sponsors the Premiership (as long as someone forks over some dough).  They are simply that - the Premiership.  Same for the Celtic League and the Top 14.  

In fact, what would we do if Durex (the sponsor of my men's team here in the US) sponsors the Premiership, Kotex sponsors the Celtic League and Pampers sponsors the Top 14?

Except the name Celtic League was dropped in 2006. The official name of the league is The PRO12. Same as The Premiership and Top 14. The sponsors names are irrelevant since they change from time to time. Unless the comp format changes necessitating a name e.g. PRO 12 to reflect Italy joining, and The Rugby Championship for Argentina's inclusion.

Exiledinborders wrote:
The full name of the league is not the PRO 12 it is the RaboDirect PRO12 according to the league's website.

The official name is The PRO12. When RaboDirect exit next year, and let's say that Axa Insurance were to sponsor it, then it would likely be called The Axa PRO12. Ditto the "Aviva" Premiership or the "Orange" Top 14.

Personally, I prefer the name PRO 12 to calling it the Rabo or any other sponsor's name, but what the hey.

What's in a name? This guy clearly doesn't care...

lostinwales wrote:I think we need to invent a new name along the lines of 'the Jeff'

Didn't someone (it may have been MaestegMafia) suggest 'Celtalian'? Unless he was referring to something on his prescription, that would be perfect.

Pot Hale wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:
The full name of the league is not the PRO 12 it is the RaboDirect PRO12 according to the league's website.

The official name is The PRO12.  When RaboDirect exit next year, and let's say that Axa Insurance were to sponsor it, then it would likely be called The Axa PRO12. Ditto the "Aviva" Premiership or the "Orange" Top 14.

Personally, I prefer the name PRO 12 to calling it the Rabo or any other sponsor's name, but what the hey.  

It is currently the Aviva Premiership, officially. If someone else takes it on it'll be the [whatever] Premiership. That's part of what the sponsorship payment are for.

People use what they think will identify what they're talking about if the conversation is about English rugby I'll use premiership. If another premiership could be confused then I'll say English prem, Aviva prem or just Jeff. I use Pro12 for the Pro12, as most on here seem to.

Pot Hale wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I refer to the Premiership, the Celtic League, and the Top 14.  For two reasons:
1.  Clearly laziness when typing.
2.  And seriously, each of the three leagues will survive long after the commercial names have changed a dozen times.  I don't really care if Aviva or Domino's or K-Y sponsors the Premiership (as long as someone forks over some dough).  They are simply that - the Premiership.  Same for the Celtic League and the Top 14.  

In fact, what would we do if Durex (the sponsor of my men's team here in the US) sponsors the Premiership, Kotex sponsors the Celtic League and Pampers sponsors the Top 14?

Except the name Celtic League was dropped in 2006.  The official name of the league is The PRO12.   Same as The Premiership and Top 14.  The sponsors names are irrelevant since they change from time to time.  Unless the comp format changes necessitating a name e.g. PRO 12 to reflect Italy joining, and The Rugby Championship for Argentina's inclusion.  

See reason number 1. I am too old to change. No offense intended (and frankly, none ever offered).

Pot Hale wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:
The full name of the league is not the PRO 12 it is the RaboDirect PRO12 according to the league's website.

The official name is The PRO12.  When RaboDirect exit next year, and let's say that Axa Insurance were to sponsor it, then it would likely be called The Axa PRO12. Ditto the "Aviva" Premiership or the "Orange" Top 14.

Personally, I prefer the name PRO 12 to calling it the Rabo or any other sponsor's name, but what the hey.  

No. The official name is the RaboDirect PRO12. When they get a new sponsor they will change the name.

Pot Hale wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:
The full name of the league is not the PRO 12 it is the RaboDirect PRO12 according to the league's website.

The official name is The PRO12.  When RaboDirect exit next year, and let's say that Axa Insurance were to sponsor it, then it would likely be called The Axa PRO12. Ditto the "Aviva" Premiership or the "Orange" Top 14.

Personally, I prefer the name PRO 12 to calling it the Rabo or any other sponsor's name, but what the hey.  

Not necessarily, so far when the sponsors have changed so have the tournaments name, granted that coincided with when the Italians joined. But it is possible that it could end up with a new sponsor and new name, especially if the HEC folds. It could end up being given a name that makes it sound like a European League.

Exiledinborders - whoops should have read your post first sorry.

Casartelli wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I think we need to invent a new name along the lines of 'the Jeff'

Didn't someone (it may have been MaestegMafia) suggest 'Celtalian'?  Unless he was referring to something on his prescription, that would be perfect.

Much too sensible. What about the Nesbit?

Exiledinborders wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:
The full name of the league is not the PRO 12 it is the RaboDirect PRO12 according to the league's website.

The official name is The PRO12.  When RaboDirect exit next year, and let's say that Axa Insurance were to sponsor it, then it would likely be called The Axa PRO12. Ditto the "Aviva" Premiership or the "Orange" Top 14.

Personally, I prefer the name PRO 12 to calling it the Rabo or any other sponsor's name, but what the hey.  

No. The official name is the RaboDirect PRO12. When they get a new sponsor they will change the name.

Not sure what you mean by "they will change the name" The name of the league is the PRO12 which is managed by the board of Celtic Rugby. When they get a new sponsor, that sponsor will replace RaboDirect - see here for example - http://www.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/story/195927.html

If they also decide to change the brand name of the league for another reason, so be it.

Putting a team no. digit in the league names creates a hostage to fortune imo.

What about the Jeff?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Putting a team no. digit in the league names creates a hostage to fortune imo.

Indeed, see Super 10, 12, 15. Maybe that's why SANZAR eventually went with SuperRugby as they're looking to expand the comp further.

I bet that hamster's dead by now but on v2 his name lives on, Scrumpy.

Good job he wasn't called JeffXII if and in case the ERC 'negotiations' go t!ts up.

I think we should call it mickey, after my favourite organ.

The Rabo is a bit Mickey Mouse.

A mouse is a rodent as is a hamster.
Can I see a v2 nickname for the Pro12 evolving?

Problem is we can't call it hte Mickey Mouse as that is the Anglo-Welsh cup. Although since LV= have sponsored that it has evolved to the Low Value Cup.

I never said mouse. Ok Willy then. that's a bit more universal.

This is more mickey mouse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69xdh1p7Mr8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D69xdh1p7Mr8

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I think we should call it mickey, after my favourite organ.

Mickey sounds good on reflection as it alludes to both a rodent and its principal contributors.

Why. What do you call your mickey in England?

Jeff. Keep [it] up JMcLb  

Never heard any Englishman refer to his mickey as Jeff. willy yes. even johnny tosseler..........

Personally as I approach the official age when I draw my State pension, I'm considering calling mine my Bod as it is becoming harder to be aroused and to produce satisfactory performances.

Opportunities of extracting the urine out of it seems to become more frequent though.

Being younger, I might call mine that too. Because what it has lost in stamina it makes up for with technique.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:...'as it is becoming harder to be aroused ...

The ultimate contradiction of ageing.

I'm tempted to add, I know how you feel, but that might be construed as a bit personal by the younger types on here.

I find that once one gets old enough to take things less personally, then arousal becomes less of a problem PH.

That's what I'm telling my Bod anyway.