IRB - would back an Anglo-French competition

IRB chief executive Brett Gosper would back an Anglo-French competition - if it had the individual unions' approval.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24149742

Ah, the good old BBC.

Interesting that the conclusion contrasts directly with:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/irb-enter-heineken-cup-dispute-29588061.html

Thats a big IF

But IT could happen

Is it really that big an IF? I know stranger things have happened but would it be that big a shock to anyone if the respective unions backed their own groups?

RFU? No, wouldn't surprise me. FFR? Maybe. I would be surprised if they let it happen without trying to get something out of it. There certainly is a lot of conflict between the FFR and LNR- I think the FFR would only agree if they can wring some major concessions out of the LNR on quotas of foreign players etc.

The LNR might decide thats not in their interest- of all the professional structures in Europe they are most able to sustain themselves on internal competition alone.

Question is- how much do they want to be part of this competition? They're already petitioning for a reduced tournament. If the FFR try to wring out more concessions from them thy might just walk away from cross-border competition entirely.

Hey, anything is possible, especially with the RFU and FFR.  I just find it strange that so many on here think it’s more likely that they will effectively screw over their own groups rather than take the path of least resistance.  Seems I haven't seen this many straws clutched at since I last played KerPlunk.

Notch wrote:RFU? No, wouldn't surprise me. FFR? Maybe. I would be surprised if they let it happen without trying to get something out of it. There certainly is a lot of conflict between the FFR and LNR- I think the FFR would only agree if they can wring some major concessions out of the LNR on quotas of foreign players etc.

The LNR might decide thats not in their interest- of all the professional structures in Europe they are most able to sustain themselves on internal competition alone.

Question is- how much do they want to be part of this competition? They're already petitioning for a reduced tournament. If the FFR try to wring out more concessions from them thy might just walk away from cross-border competition entirely.

Agree with this. I believe the French might walk from any Euro competition, whether it's this bad idea of a Franglo, or the HEC, if not all unions are represented. Certainly can understand the FFR not being too concerned about the absence of European competition until after the RWC, and, as you say, the LNR won't be pulling their hair out at the prospect as they may be able to maintain their league without it. PRL don't have that luxury.

Scrumpy wrote:But IT could happen

No it couldnt because the individual unions have already objected.

The RFU hasn't and won't. The FFR May use their acceptance to create an EPS style agreement though.

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:But IT could happen

No it couldnt because the individual unions have already objected.

you got any evidence of that? links etc?

Surely the reason the IRB will not object is that their lawyers will have told them they would not have a leg to stand on. If they object to the new competition based on ERC shareholders saying PRL/LNR cannot compete with their competition they would not stand a chance in court.

First we had the French clubs not being serious about a split. Then we had the IRB won't allow it. Now it's the unions won't allow it? We'll see I suppose.

Remember this season is the first time the clubs are allowing the FFR more time with the players during the 6 nations. They're not completely at odds and the union wants more off the clubs than the clubs want from the union.

IanBru wrote:Ah, the good old BBC.

Interesting that the conclusion contrasts directly with:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/irb-enter-heineken-cup-dispute-29588061.html

Everyone has said that they would prefer a competition with the 6 countries involved (ideally more). But the IRB have specifically said (in quotes and everything) that they wouldn't block a competition approved by the unions. Which is exactly what some people were saying. Someone even made the ludicrous suggestion that the English and French could be fined by the IRB for losing the others money by pulling out.

I just love the Telegraph's reporting of the same interview with Gosper and managing to completely subvert what he actually said:


Anglo-French breakaway project suffers devastating blow after international rugby board voices disapproval
English and French clubs planning to set up a new tournament next season to replace the Heineken Cup received a devastating blow on Wednesday when the International Rugby Board said it was firmly against a solely Anglo-French project.

By Gavin Mairs, Rugby News Correspondent10:00PM BST 18 Sep 2013

The IRB’s declaration came just hours before the owners and shareholders of the 12 Aviva Premiership clubs reiterated their intention to take “immediate action” to press ahead with setting up the new competition and said they saw “no purpose” in the call by the ERC for more negotiations at the end of next month.

While the Premiership clubs said that preparations “should be progressed with urgency”, IRB chief executive Brett Gosper insisted that the world governing body would not sanction an Anglo-French tournament.

“We don’t think it’s in the interests of the game a competition such as that, no,” Gosper said. “We don’t believe in an Anglo-French competition in itself.

"We strongly believe it should be a European competition and that’s what we would be supporting and throwing our weight behind.

“A full European competition is the right thing for the game of rugby in terms of development, growth and so on. We urge all of those parties to get together and find some common ground because we believe it’s in the interests of the game to do so.”

Premiership Rugby last night insisted that its new tournament would be “open to teams from other countries” and it is understood there has already been declarations of informal interest from a number of clubs in Europe and South Africa.

But initial approval for an Anglo-French competition first have to come from the Rugby Football Union and French Rugby Federation. And while both will face strong pressure from their clubs to back their plan, both unions are unlikely to support a proposal that is opposed by the IRB.
The IRB’s declaration could also effectively weaken the negotiating position of the English and French clubs as it effectively gives the Celtic and Italian unions a veto if they refuse to engage in the proposed new tournament.

Gosper insisted he was confident that a deal could be struck to salvage the Heineken Cup and, speaking at a press conference in Canary Wharf in London to mark the two-year countdown to England hosting the 2015 Rugby World Cup, insisted the outcome would be a defining moment for the global game.
“I think it is important because obviously we want the right outcome,” added Gosper. “If we believe a full European competition is good for rugby then yes, it is important. But this is a negotiation. Let’s not get too carried away.”

Gosper’s appeal for compromise was echoed on Wednesday by England’s World Cup-winning fly-half Jonny Wilkinson.

“It would be an incredible shame if we weren’t able to compete in the Heineken Cup which is, effectively, the World Cup for European clubs,” said Wilkinson, who won the tournament with Toulon last season. “It’s a fabulous thing and the more people who can experience it, the better.”
ERC has called a meeting of all parties in Dublin on Oct 23 in an attempt to broker a peace deal in the wake of the decision of the English and French clubs last week to set up their own tournament.

The prospect of the English clubs, who served notice along with their French counterparts to leave the current accord in June 2012 to force an overhaul of the structure, qualifying and distribution of the revenue, of attending the negotiations however now looks very unlikely.
Wednesday’s meeting, Premiership Rugby appeared to all but rule out any return to the negotiating table under the ERC framework.

“The clubs see no purpose in new discussions starting as late as the end of October 2013, as proposed earlier this week,” said the statement.

“The proposals from the French and English clubs for two new, strong competitions of 20 teams in each were tabled more than a year ago.

“The clubs reaffirmed their instruction to Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for the 2014/15 season onwards to include the French and English clubs, and for this competition to be open to teams from other countries. It was confirmed that this should be progressed with urgency.”

I think this is a game of "pass the parcel".

The IRB are standing back and saying to the Unions - you make the decision, and we'll support it - possibly.

Some of the Unions want the IRB to intervene, so they don't have to take the hard decision.

Looking hard for the clubs now. If they softened their position a fraction and were more willing to negotiate then the IRB wouldn't had to comment and because of those comments from the IRB now, it strengthens the hand of the Pro 12 teams.

profitius wrote:Looking hard for the clubs now. If they softened their position a fraction and were more willing to negotiate then the IRB wouldn't had to comment and because of those comments from the IRB now, it strengthens the hand of the Pro 12 teams.

?

They've said they want a proper European competition. Everyone has said that. Everybody wants that.

They also said they (probably) wouldn't block an Anglo-Franglo competition if the unions were behind it. This statement has made no difference other then partially remove the idea the IRB would step in to stop it. I really don't understand how these comments (all of them not just a selection) are strengthening the hand of the Pro12 teams (surely it should be unions?).

I'm struggling to see how the Pro 12 teams hand is strengthened by this. As far as I can tell all that has been said is that the IRB would prefer to see a European competition - doesn't seem clear to me that this means they'd rather see ERC continue, they may well be just as happy if the other unions agreed to join the new anglo-french making it a new european tournament.

However, irrespective of what they would ideally like to see he has openly stated that if the unions agree to it they are unlikely to object, and that to me is the key point. Previously there appeared to be 2 main obstacles, FFR approval and IRB approval - and one of those is now looking much easier. Really I think that all it comes down to is negotiations between LNR and FFR, with FFR probably wanting some concessions in return. If they get that it will probably get the go ahead.

My only other thought is that perhaps LNR and PRL would be happy to see no tournament until after 2015/16 and are perhaps anticipating no tournament involvement for a couple of seasons. The English clubs cannot play league matches during the world cup, so will have a much shorter season that year, shorter by about 2 months - funnily enough pretty much exactly the number of weekends currently taken up by the HEC. They may well have calculated that they will lose less money dropping the HEC over the 14/15 and 15/16 seasons than they would playing a significantly reduced premiership in 15/16.

Rather a misleading thread title...!!. The IRB definitely do not want a break away tournament.

The BBC article missed out a few very important statements from Gosper.



“We don’t think it’s in the interests of the game a competition such as that, no,” Gosper said yesterday. “We don’t believe in an Anglo-French competition in itself. We strongly believe it should be a European competition and that’s what we would be supporting and throwing our weight behind . . . We urge all of those parties to get together and find some common ground because we believe it’s in the interests of the game to do so.”

So basically yer man gosper said plenty without saying a lot. The difference in reporting what he said is massive too.

Standulstermen wrote:So basically yer man gosper said plenty without saying a lot. The difference in reporting what he said is massive too.

Pretty clear that the IRB do not want a French/English competition. I think we will all be grateful when the PRL and LNR finally back down and everyone can get on with the HEC.

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:So basically yer man gosper said plenty without saying a lot. The difference in reporting what he said is massive too.

Pretty clear that the IRB do not want a French/English competition. I think we will all be grateful when the PRL and LNR finally back down and everyone can get on with the HEC.

but they would still back it if the respected unions did.

You missed that part out of it your post.

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:So basically yer man gosper said plenty without saying a lot. The difference in reporting what he said is massive too.

Pretty clear that the IRB do not want a French/English competition. I think we will all be grateful when the PRL and LNR finally back down and everyone can get on with the HEC.

but they would still back it if the respected unions did.

You missed that part out of it your post.

It was mentioned above. What wasn't was the quote I posted where IRB Chief Exec states the following.

"We don’t think it’s in the interests of the game a competition such as that, no,” Gosper said yesterday. “We don’t believe in an Anglo-French competition in itself. We strongly believe it should be a European competition and that’s what we would be supporting and throwing our weight behind . . . We urge all of those parties to get together and find some common ground because we believe it’s in the interests of the game to do so.”

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:So basically yer man gosper said plenty without saying a lot. The difference in reporting what he said is massive too.

Pretty clear that the IRB do not want a French/English competition. I think we will all be grateful when the PRL and LNR finally back down and everyone can get on with the HEC.

but they would still back it if the respected unions did.

You missed that part out of it your post.

It was mentioned above. What wasn't was the quote I posted where IRB Chief Exec states the following.

"We don’t think it’s in the interests of the game a competition such as that, no,” Gosper said yesterday. “We don’t believe in an Anglo-French competition in itself. We strongly believe it should be a European competition and that’s what we would be supporting and throwing our weight behind . . . We urge all of those parties to get together and find some common ground because we believe it’s in the interests of the game to do so.”

But isn't that what everyone wants? a European competition.

Your quote that you post is far off from the "The IRB won't sanction a new tournament" comment you've been making over the last week or so.

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:So basically yer man gosper said plenty without saying a lot. The difference in reporting what he said is massive too.

Pretty clear that the IRB do not want a French/English competition. I think we will all be grateful when the PRL and LNR finally back down and everyone can get on with the HEC.

but they would still back it if the respected unions did.

You missed that part out of it your post.

It was mentioned above. What wasn't was the quote I posted where IRB Chief Exec states the following.

"We don’t think it’s in the interests of the game a competition such as that, no,” Gosper said yesterday. “We don’t believe in an Anglo-French competition in itself. We strongly believe it should be a European competition and that’s what we would be supporting and throwing our weight behind . . . We urge all of those parties to get together and find some common ground because we believe it’s in the interests of the game to do so.”

But isn't that what everyone wants? a European competition.

Your quote that you post is far off from the "The IRB won't sanction a new tournament" comment you've been making over the last week or so.

They won't sanction a new tournament unless it benefits all unions...! Their stance is very clear.

IRB clarifies position on Euro competitions


(IRB.COM) Wednesday 18 September 2013



A strong pan-European competition is in the best interests of the development of European Rugby and the International Rugby Board (IRB) strongly encourages and supports ongoing stakeholder dialogue in order to reach an agreement.

To clarify the global competition procedure, under IRB Regulations all cross-border club competitions require Union approval in the first instance and, if reached, ultimately the approval of the IRB Council.

We naturally support our Unions in their attempts to grow a thriving, genuinely cross-European competition.

All hypothetical scenarios remain just that with discussions ongoing and it would not be appropriate to pre-empt the view of Council, should approval be required.

I think there will be a European competition eventually the main issue will be whether the ERC will still be running it. At the moment it looks highly unlikely.

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:So basically yer man gosper said plenty without saying a lot. The difference in reporting what he said is massive too.

Pretty clear that the IRB do not want a French/English competition. I think we will all be grateful when the PRL and LNR finally back down and everyone can get on with the HEC.

but they would still back it if the respected unions did.

You missed that part out of it your post.

It was mentioned above. What wasn't was the quote I posted where IRB Chief Exec states the following.

"We don’t think it’s in the interests of the game a competition such as that, no,” Gosper said yesterday. “We don’t believe in an Anglo-French competition in itself. We strongly believe it should be a European competition and that’s what we would be supporting and throwing our weight behind . . . We urge all of those parties to get together and find some common ground because we believe it’s in the interests of the game to do so.”

But isn't that what everyone wants? a European competition.

Your quote that you post is far off from the "The IRB won't sanction a new tournament" comment you've been making over the last week or so.

They won't sanction a new tournament unless it benefits all unions...! Their stance is very clear.

Are you making that up?

I haven't read anywhere where it says "they won't sanction a new tournament.." including the statement you pasted from irb.com

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I think there will be a European competition eventually the main issue will be whether the ERC will still be running it. At the moment it looks highly unlikely.

If the IRB are sanctioning the tournament then the ERC and Unions will thankfully be running the tournament, not club owners.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I think there will be a European competition eventually the main issue will be whether the ERC will still be running it. At the moment it looks highly unlikely.

If the IRB are sanctioning the tournament then the ERC and Unions will thankfully be running the tournament, not club owners.

They may well be, but they will be doing it without the T14 or the Aviva sides unless there is a major compromise. These sides have announced their intention to leave the ERC, or have you missed that?

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I think there will be a European competition eventually the main issue will be whether the ERC will still be running it. At the moment it looks highly unlikely.

If the IRB are sanctioning the tournament then the ERC and Unions will thankfully be running the tournament, not club owners.

How can you go from one post saying "they won't sanction it", to then say "if they sanction it".

I seriously do not get you sometimes maes!

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I think there will be a European competition eventually the main issue will be whether the ERC will still be running it. At the moment it looks highly unlikely.

If the IRB are sanctioning the tournament then the ERC and Unions will thankfully be running the tournament, not club owners.

Well Gosper is saying he will 'support the outcome of the negotiations as much as we can' so that to me sounds fairly non committal.

Apparently gosper gave two interviews with different views! That's what thornley was saying in the IT

Standulstermen wrote:Apparently gosper gave two interviews with different views! That's what thornley was saying in the IT

No the interviews seem to say the same thing. The IRB want the HEC to continue and for those involved to sort out their differences.

"Our desire is a bona fide European competition so we are urging all of the constituents of that conversation at the moment to get together and find a resolution because we obviously believe it is in the interests of rugby to have a strong European competition.
"It's good for the clubs, it's good for the (national) unions," the Australian added in his first public comment on the row.

So in short, it wants a European competition (he doesn't actually say the heineken cup) as we all do. But the IRB will also support a franglo competition providing the two respected unions give the go ahead.

Maes,
I agree that Gosper indicates the IRB wants to see a strong European competition.  I think we all do, really.  I would love to see some real leadership from the IRB because it is clear the negotiators on all sides are too limited and/or parochial to find the right solution at the moment.

doctor_grey wrote:Maes,
I agree that Gosper indicates the IRB wants to see a strong European competition.  I think we all do, really.  I would love to see some real leadership from the IRB because it is clear the negotiators on all sides are too limited and/or parochial to find the right solution at the moment.

 

Just to clarify. Earlier yesterday Gosper said that the IRB would support a new tournament if the FFR and RFU backed it and if the FFR and RFU were comfortable with it.


Later yesterday he backtracked basically saying they want a full European competition and not something with just the Anglo French in it.


Late last night Tom English asked him this question:


Tom English ‏@TomEnglishSport wrote:
What does @brettgosper really think about the Anglo-French/Heineken Cup. He seems to have two conflicting takes on it.


Brett Gosper ‏@brettgosper wrote:
@TomEnglishSport Some misunderstanding in reports. Clearly supportive of a full bona fide European comp not an Anglo /French comp.


Gerry Thornley mentioned last night that Gosper is just a spokesman and has no voting rights within the IRB. So to me it looks like spoke too soon yesterday morning and the IRB corrected him which led to the later statement.


So what we have now is the IRB "clearly" not supportive of an Anglo French tournament. That a massive blow to the PRL cartel. With no European competition they might lose part of or a lot of their BT contract and that seems to be widely known too. The IRBs statement basically hands the pro 12 unions a big bargaining chip.

Intermediation is becoming increasingly imperative it seems.
This problem has been dragging on for too long now and the organisational structures need to be put in place whatever the final result of any accord or discord.

The IRB seems to be best placed to provide the arbitration although agreeing the fairness of the arbitration committee might send a resolution even further backwards.

There is a lot of fence sitting tbh. You could (and I do ) read that as saying if the franglo became a more 'european wide' competition they would not have a problem with it.

They are - as is everyone - keen on a European competition. They have not come out in support of (or opposition to) the ERC and the existing status quo.

profitius wrote:Just to clarify. Earlier yesterday Gosper said that the IRB would support a new tournament if the FFR and RFU backed it and if the FFR and RFU were comfortable with it.


Later yesterday he backtracked basically saying they want a full European competition and not something with just the Anglo French in it.


Late last night Tom English asked him this question:


Tom English ‏@TomEnglishSport wrote:
What does @brettgosper really think about the Anglo-French/Heineken Cup. He seems to have two conflicting takes on it.


Brett Gosper ‏@brettgosper wrote:
@TomEnglishSport Some misunderstanding in reports. Clearly supportive of a full bona fide European comp not an Anglo /French comp.


Gerry Thornley mentioned last night that Gosper is just a spokesman and has no voting rights within the IRB. So to me it looks like spoke too soon yesterday morning and the IRB corrected him which led to the later statement.


So what we have now is the IRB "clearly" not supportive of an Anglo French tournament. That a massive blow to the PRL cartel. With no European competition they might lose part of or a lot of their BT contract and that seems to be widely known too. The IRBs statement basically hands the pro 12 unions a big bargaining chip.

he's the CEO of the IRB, not a spokesman. He could very well have no voting rights though. It's not a massive blow at all, all they have said is that they would like a European competition, not a franglo one. Doesn't mean they wouldn't support it.

profitus wrote:So what we have now is the IRB "clearly" not supportive of an Anglo French tournament. That a massive blow to the PRL cartel. With no European competition they might lose part of or a lot of their BT contract and that seems to be widely known too. The IRBs statement basically hands the pro 12 unions a big bargaining chip.

You cant shift an inch, profitus, without stubbing your toe on a cartel. Not in pro rugby anyway.

Straight from the horses mouth without any interference from journey's including the questions asked.

http://audioboo.fm/boos/1608158-brett-gosper-irb-ceo-on-european-cup-situation#t=0m0s

There's a few questions that come out of this:

1. Gosper seemed quite unequivocal in his earlier BBC interview that IRB approval of Franglo Cup would be forthcoming, if backed by RFU and FFR. What inspired his later back-tracking? A word in his shell-like, possibly, but who would have that kind of authority over him - Lapasset?

2. IRB Handbook online, 16.2.7 (page 224)
http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/AboutIRB/IRBConstitution/02/06/85/38/130801IRBHandbook.pdf
states that cross-border tournaments below senior or next senior national level is subject to approval of CEO, not Council (I paraphrase). IRB are now saying categorically that this mess is subject to approval of Council. The Handbook (aka IRB  Regulations) was updated on 31 July 2013, so sometime in the last few weeks either IRB Council have voted themselves more powers, or Gosper has decided to cede his approval to Council, or been instructed to do so. Which is it? (Or have I got it wrong?)

3. IRB use the phrase "pan-European competition" - are they using this correctly, i.e. an all-inclusive European competition (which would presumably include regional and sub-tournaments across Scandanavia, Iberia, Balkans, Caucasus, etc and infer the involvement of FIRA-AER, an IRB Council member) or is it just lazy English, or perhaps lazy translation?

Clear as mud

Rock and a hard place for the IRB, if something isn't found to placate the franglo clubs no European cup or certainly not one that includes some of the best players and teams and they go it alone. Go too far and the 6 nations is wrecked through the backlash from the four other unions against the RFU and FFR for supporting their clubs. Only option for the IRB...........be vague, non-committal and back further negotiations.