Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Ian Ritchie seemed pleasingly tight lipped in the press - others could learn from him

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Shame that 'Boot-Boy' Mr Wray can't keep his gob shut though, As.

Stirring it up by facetious and totally divisive talk of Leinster (or any other Irish province) is loose and incomprehedable. And he's not a PRL official so far as I'm aware.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Shame that 'Boot-Boy' Mr Wray can't keep his gob shut though, As.

Stirring it up by facetious and totally divisive talk of Leinster (or any other Irish province) is loose and incomprehedable.  And he's not a PRL official so far as I'm aware.

Wray, Walkinshaw, McCafferty, Quentin Smith, and even our own Tony Rowe - not impressed  

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Seems to me that the whole tenor of this debate since the Franglos dropped their bombshell in June last year has shifted from a Celtalian united defiance to a glum resentment and acceptance of the inevitable conclusion.

Now it seems that the IRB will accept a Franglo tournament, only domestic agreements between the Franglo Unions and their elite club representatives stands in the way...

[LordDowlais]

This is not going to end well for anyone, trust me when I say this, the six nations will be next, lets not forget, it is still an invitational tournament and things could get spiteful and ugly.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

The Six Nations is an IRB-sponsored tournament, LD. And as such the Unions each have the right to enter.
The problem being that it's not so much an invitational one rather than an exclusive cartel that makes it a self-interested number of major nations that actively combine to make it an impossibility for 'outsiders' to join and share the spoils.

[Big]

The Six Nations is an IRB-sponsored tournament, LD. And as such the Unions each have the right to enter.
The problem being that it's not so much an invitational one rather than an exclusive cartel that makes it a self-interested number of major nations that actively combine to make it an impossibility for 'outsiders' to join and share the spoils.

Well it's clearly not impossible for an outsider to join as it has been managed once in the pro era when Italy joined.

[Exiledinborders]

The Six Nations is an IRB-sponsored tournament, LD. And as such the Unions each have the right to enter.
The problem being that it's not so much an invitational one rather than an exclusive cartel that makes it a self-interested number of major nations that actively combine to make it an impossibility for 'outsiders' to join and share the spoils.

Well it's clearly not impossible for an outsider to join as it has been managed once in the pro era when Italy joined.

Quite right and being realistic which European country could join and not get thrashed in every match?

[Portnoy's Complaint]

But that very logic is the key of the HEC accord renegotiations. Just as Zebre ar not good enough to stay in whilst others are better qualified, the 6Ns cartel countries maybe ought to be subjected to promotion and relegation via a playoff system. Personally I favour a divisional 4Ns.

[maestegmafia]

Seems to me that the whole tenor of this debate since the Franglos dropped their bombshell in June last year has shifted from a Celtalian united defiance to a glum resentment and acceptance of the inevitable conclusion.

Now it seems that the IRB will accept a Franglo tournament, only domestic agreements between the Franglo Unions and their elite club representatives stands in the way...

The IRB Cheif Executive Brett Gosper said

"We don’t think it’s in the interests of the game a competition such as that, no,” Gosper said yesterday. “We don’t believe in an Anglo-French competition in itself. We strongly believe it should be a European competition and that’s what we would be supporting and throwing our weight behind . . . We urge all of those parties to get together and find some common ground because we believe it’s in the interests of the game to do so.”

So no I don't think that the Franglo breakaway thing is going to happen at all.

[stub]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24194481


The proposed replacement for the Heineken Cup will be called the Rugby Champions Cup, English and French clubs have announced.
They will quit the Heineken Cup at the end of this season because they object to the current set-up for a number of reasons.
“A joint working group has been created to prepare all necessary elements”
The issues include qualification and the way revenue is shared.
A Premiership Rugby statement said: "The competition will be based on the principles of qualification on merit."
Premier Rugby added the new tournament will have "a strong competition format, equality between the leagues, higher commercial values for the teams and expansion into new European markets".
A statement concluded: "The Top 14 and Premiership Rugby clubs have already confirmed their participation in the new competition and a joint working group has been created to prepare all necessary elements in good time for the 2014-15 season."
The International Rugby Board said it will only back the new pan-European club tournament if the French and English rugby unions approve it.
England's Aviva Premiership and France's Top14 leagues believe the current Heineken Cup structure favours teams from the RaboDirect Pro12, which is made up of sides from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy, who will be allowed to join the potential new tournament.
Only the top six in England and France are guaranteed a place in the Heineken Cup, which began in the 1995-96 season, whereas at least 10 Celtic League outfits - including both Scottish, both Italian and a minimum of three sides each from Wales and Ireland - have certain entry into the competition.
With the Pro12 having no relegation, it is argued teams can rest players for league matches to keep them fresh for Europe, while Premiership and Top 14 teams have to fight hard just to qualify.
The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share

2013-14 Heineken Cup structure
• France: 7 (Castres, Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont-Auvergne, Racing Metro, Montpellier, Perpignan)
• England: 6 (Northampton, Exeter, Saracens, Harlequins, Leicester, Gloucester)
• Ireland: 4 (Leinster, Connacht, Ulster, Munster)
• Wales: 3 (Ospreys, Cardiff, Scarlets)
• Scotland: 2 (Glasgow, Edinburgh)
• Italy: 2 (Zebre, Treviso)






Nothing too new there is there?

[maestegmafia]

Nope nothing whatsoever.

You can almost predict that the announcement will come the day before the next ERC meeting.

[formerly known as Sam]

I suspect they need to see if the Rabo unions will come and join in before they can set everything in stone.

[Artful_Dodger]

The BBC, in the many many articles they have published on this have not once mentioned the main issue in all of this.  Which is how the money is divided up.  They keep talking about how many teams qualify from the Rabo and the factor of relegation.  When anybody who knows anything about this whole situation knows that the sticking point is how the money is split between either unions or teams.

To be honest the BBC have become a bit of a waste of space, their standards are incredibly poor.

[Artful_Dodger]

I've just seen the sentence at the bottom actually. My mistake.

[maestegmafia]

I suspect they need to see if the Rabo unions will come and join in before they can set everything in stone.

No one will join a competition without details being given that may encourage/discourage them to join or not.

The only news here is that the PRL have given this concept a name.

It is still no more likely to happen than next seasons HEC.

[The Saint]

The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share

There we go, what it all boils down to. The Celtic & Italian teams will likely say 'shove it up yer ass' rather than risk bankrupting themselves while the rich get richer.

 

[bedfordwelsh]

Yeah theres no details as to playing format or how many teams will be involved, will they have a second string Amlin equivalent to or will it simply be the Orem and Top 14 split into groups then quarters semis final etc

[stub]

Yes, not much detail - there is some mention of new European markets which suggests more than one competition I would think. But it's vague. They must be waiting to see who else will join before being able to really work out and share the details.

[Notch]

I'm in favour of this so long as there is a guarantee of at least one side from each of the Six Nations and an equal split of money between all participating teams in Tier 1 and Tier 2.

[Notch]

I doubt that will be the case.

Although it must be said, if the desire is to expand into new European markets losing four of the six nations as markets to start with wouldn't be a good start. They should come up with a way to cut into the Italian market- maybe by having their teams qualify automatically?  

[wayne]

I'm in favour of this so long as there is a guarantee of at least one side from each of the Six Nations and an equal split of money between all participating teams in Tier 1 and Tier 2.

Notch, basically RRW are more or less in agreement with what you say, Andrew Hore was on S4C at half time last night, in the interview he was trying to broach the subject, but the interviewer couldn't or wouldn't.

[Notch]

I'm no fan of the Murdoch Media Empire. I wouldn't be too displeased to see Europe's Premier competition go somewhere else. Of course, just as that happens Sky will go after the Pro12 to fill the gap in their schedules so it's not like we'll be free of them... oh well, we need them a lot more than they need us.

But more than anything I want a fair deal, and I have no idea if we're going to get that in this Anglo-French led breakaway. My instincts say they're going to insist on trying to screw us. The self-aggrandising media talk of how the English and French generate all the money doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that there will be an equal split of the profits. The talk is everyone will get more... but we'll get more than you.

Not good for European rugby, that attitude. Not good for a competitive tournament in the long term. If the PRL want this to be successful, they need to organise like the organise their own league. All competing teams get an equal share.

[stub]

Equal financial shares per team (well for tier 1 and 2 if that covered all AP12, Pro12 and T14) and votes per team seems a decent way forward to me in this scenario. Then some funds to grow new European rugby would be a bonus.

[nathan]

The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share

There we go, what it all boils down to. The Celtic & Italian teams will likely say 'shove it up yer ass' rather than risk bankrupting themselves while the rich get richer.

 

nice and mature there calling the french and english morons...

[butterfingers]

I'm not sure how a tournament like this could work.

Who runs this tournament, A Franglo consortium? Who determines structure and payout? And who governs this tournament?

Surely the ERC is in the best place possible to do so, oh hang on the ERC is the problem isn't it, a union run entity!

The PRL and LNR are essentially staging a coup not just over the ERC but their own unions too, if the RFU and FFR agree to this they are all but raising the white flag for the sport as we know it!

[HammerofThunor]

I would imagine it's same as what they were asking for. If the Pro12 unions come in they'll have a third stake. The other stakes would go to the English and French clubs.

[Notch]

Statement from Peter Boyle of the IRFU;

"The RFU and French Rugby Federation have already confirmed that there will be no new company other than ERC to run European competitions. It is unequivocal that the negotiation of TV and other rights is central and it's done by ERC. The IRFU are bound into ERC and that restricts completely the movement of Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht."

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199325.html?CMP=OTC-RSS;utm_medium=twitter;utm_source=twitterfeed

He insists that the IRFU are willing to compromise on the issues of automatic competition and reducing the size of the Cup to 20 teams.

[Notch]

Back to what it hinges on really; the fate of rugby in Europe is in the hands of the RFU and FFR. Which side they land on will determine what happens next.

[butterfingers]

I would imagine it's same as what they were asking for. If the Pro12 unions come in they'll have a third stake. The other stakes would go to the English and French clubs.

In this argument I try to be as neutral as possible...

In what way does 4 nations representing 2/3's of the Euro tournament deserve only 1/3rd stake?

As much as I want to see English clubs reaching the latter stages regularly, there must be some sort of barrier between money and the game we love, it must not be allowed to dictate the sport.

What stipulations does the PRL have on it's member clubs being relegated from the AP and non member clubs making euro rugby?

How interesting would a comp be where 2/3rds of the clubs come from 2 nations?

Why does Italy, Scotland, Wales or Ireland deserve to run the risk of having no representation in the euro comp top table?

The tournament is richer for having representation from every nation, it's richer for having a more diverse player pool, and more diverse club games surely?

[HammerofThunor]

Back to what it hinges on really; the fate of rugby in Europe is in the hands of the RFU and FFR. Which side they land on will determine what happens next.

Yep

[Notch]

How interesting would a comp be where 2/3rds of the clubs come from 2 nations?

Thats the real problem here for me- how dull these changes are going to make things. I like that every year I see us play a variety of different teams. Should Ulster qualify for this hypothetical and still rather sketchy/make-believe tournament there's a chance we'd be in a pool with two French teams and an English team or two English teams or whatever... which is just more boring than what we have now. Sometimes it does happen in the current format mind you, depending on who wins the HC/Amlin, but not every year and not every pool. What the Heineken Cup has now is diversity which is what I'll miss the most about the old format.

Whatever happens, even if the rebels stayed in the ERC, it looks like there will be 4 less teams and they'll all come from the Pro12. Which makes it rather heavily weighted towards England/France and therefore less interesting for people outside those countries. And by the way, the Italians are quickly gaining a reputation as the best away trip in the Pro12 amongst those fans who travel to games. Incredibly friendly fans, beautiful country, great food and booze... oh I would miss them a lot if they didn't qualify.

I still remain in favour of a European European Cup and it seems that is more favoured by the ERC Camp...

[The Saint]

The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share

There we go, what it all boils down to. The Celtic & Italian teams will likely say 'shove it up yer ass' rather than risk bankrupting themselves while the rich get richer.

 

nice and mature there calling the french and english morons...

You got tired of trolling on other threads then did you?

#hypocrite .

[nathan]

The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share

There we go, what it all boils down to. The Celtic & Italian teams will likely say 'shove it up yer ass' rather than risk bankrupting themselves while the rich get richer.

 

nice and mature there calling the french and english morons...

You got tired of trolling on other threads then did you?

#hypocrite .

you making stuff up?

saint calling someone else a troll! lol
I've never called anyone a moron!

[Poorfour]

How interesting would a comp be where 2/3rds of the clubs come from 2 nations?

Thats the real problem here for me- how dull these changes are going to make things. I like that every year I see us play a variety of different teams. Should Ulster qualify for this hypothetical and still rather sketchy/make-believe tournament there's a chance we'd be in a pool with two French teams and an English team or two English teams or whatever... which is just more boring than what we have now. Sometimes it does happen in the current format mind you, depending on who wins the HC/Amlin, but not every year and not every pool. What the Heineken Cup has now is diversity which is what I'll miss the most about the old format.

Whatever happens, even if the rebels stayed in the ERC, it looks like there will be 4 less teams and they'll all come from the Pro12. Which makes it rather heavily weighted towards England/France and therefore less interesting for people outside those countries. And by the way, the Italians are quickly gaining a reputation as the best away trip in the Pro12 amongst those fans who travel to games. Incredibly friendly fans, beautiful country, great food and booze... oh I would miss them a lot if they didn't qualify.

I still remain in favour of a European European Cup and it seems that is more favoured by the ERC Camp...

You could always follow the second tier competition, which would then have plenty of diversity. It could be just what's needed to make it a serious competition. Meanwhile, the top tier competition would become even more intense

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

It's always going to be hard to square the circle.

Have they taken into account that the Irish, Scottish and Italian teams do not exist as "clubs" but are just branches of their respective union, and the Welsh are somewhere in the middle.

In principal, I personally would have no objection to any proposal from anywhere. I think they all should be considered. However I would really like all the current ERC stakeholders to thrash it out between them.

[Notch]

Nah, it's not gonna become much more intense. Slight improvement in quality of some of the pool stages, the knockout stages will feature the same teams as it would in the old 24-team format. The best teams in Europe will be there or thereabouts in the same way they would in the old tournament. There's always one group every year which is a bit soft, that'll be over, but most groups will remain the same in terms of quality. In all honesty sorting out the busted seeding system would go further towards making the tournament more intense than changing the number of teams or how they get there.

The real idea and motive is to improve the second tier tournament, which you'd only watch if your team was in it anyway. It is what it is, the second tier tournament- it will never draw much interest from casual fans or be seen as a big draw however much it improves. For example, sports journalists in Italy will completely ignore the European campaigns of Treviso and Zebre in the second tier should they both find themselves there. But if at least one of them is rubbing shoulders with the bigger teams in the main show each year the game will benefit from increased exposure in the Italian press and increased interest which is better both for their competitiveness and for the tournament in general in the long term. It was also give them a chance to keep players in Italy knowing that they have a shot at playing in the biggest club tournament every year.

It's important to have strong second tier but it's also important to make sure we keep the tier 1 tournament both meritocratic and diverse. The balance between those things is off with diversity ahead of meritocracy when it comes to teams like Zebre, but equally the proposal for no automatic qualification puts meritocracy ahead of the diversity that will add appeal to the tournament and will keep professional rugby moving forward in all of the six main countries with professional structures in place.

If this Rugby Champions thing isn't gonna make it clear from the outset that teams from all six nations will feature every year in the main competition it's going to be sad... Seriously, we could have 18 places divided equally between 3 leagues and 2 places set aside to make sure all six nations are represented. Is that really so terrible? Still competitive and 90% of the teams qualify via league placings but every year, each country will have an iron in the fire and therefore the competition will not drop off the radar in the smaller countries.

Unfortunately, the IRFU are about as sharp as a balloon when it comes to negotiating as the Sexton saga proves. I think there are good odds that while we could join a new competition on our own terms now and broker a fair compromise on issues like money and guaranteed participation, instead we'll stay aboard the sinking ship that is the ERC and end up joining the breakaway on worse terms later. Terms that I believe are bad for European rugby.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share

There we go, what it all boils down to. The Celtic & Italian teams will likely say 'shove it up yer ass' rather than risk bankrupting themselves while the rich get richer.

 

nice and mature there calling the french and english morons...

You got tired of trolling on other threads then did you?

#hypocrite .

Children behave. That's what they say when we're together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkMFLUXTEwM

[Pot Hale]

Referring to an earlier comment by someone regarding the voting structure of the ERC, is it accurate that the combined vote of the PRO12 unions always outweigh the other participants?

I read recently that the voting is not simply two votes per union.  Rather that FFR, RFU, LNR and PRL if they voted together would equal actually outweigh the votes of the other four unions/RRW...

There's 18 votes in total

RFU 2.5
PRL 2.5
FFR 1
LNR 4 (recallable by FFR)
WRU 1
RRW 1
IRFU 2
SRU 2
fIR 2

[HammerofThunor]

Referring to an earlier comment by someone regarding the voting structure of the ERC, is it accurate that the combined vote of the PRO12 unions always outweigh the other participants?

I read recently that the voting is not simply two votes per union.  Rather that FFR, RFU, LNR and PRL if they voted together would equal the votes of the other four unions...

Not sure. All I know is that the French have 5 votes.

[Notch]

Referring to an earlier comment by someone regarding the voting structure of the ERC, is it accurate that the combined vote of the PRO12 unions always outweigh the other participants?

I read recently that the voting is not simply two votes per union.  Rather that FFR, RFU, LNR and PRL if they voted together would equal the votes of the other four unions...

Not sure. All I know is that the French have 5 votes.

5 votes?  

My understanding was each of the Six Nations had 2 votes. IRFU, SRU and the FIR have two votes. The RFU, FFR and WRU have voluntarily given one of their votes to the PRL, LNR and RRW respectively and therefore retain one vote each.

Am I incorrect in this?

[HammerofThunor]

In all the stuff about Lux getting voted in it was said that the FFR had given the LNR 4 of their 5 votes but pulled them back to make sure Lux got in.

I'll have a look for confirmation

[Exiledinborders]

I'm not sure how a tournament like this could work.

Who runs this tournament, A Franglo consortium? Who determines structure and payout? And who governs this tournament?

Surely the ERC is in the best place possible to do so, oh hang on the ERC is the problem isn't it, a union run entity!

The PRL and LNR are essentially staging a coup not just over the ERC but their own unions too, if the RFU and FFR agree to this they are all but raising the white flag for the sport as we know it!

I assume either one team one vote or one league one vote. That would rectify the situation where a third of the teams hav more than half the votes.

[HammerofThunor]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/oct/21/peter-wheeler-european-rugby-cup

This says the PRL have 2.5 of the 18 votes. At a guess the English and French have 5 votes and the other 4 unions have 2 each.

[Pot Hale]

Referring to an earlier comment by someone regarding the voting structure of the ERC, is it accurate that the combined vote of the PRO12 unions always outweigh the other participants?

I read recently that the voting is not simply two votes per union.  Rather that FFR, RFU, LNR and PRL if they voted together would equal the votes of the other four unions...

Not sure. All I know is that the French have 5 votes.

5 votes?  

My understanding was each of the Six Nations had 2 votes. IRFU, SRU and the FIR have two votes. The RFU, FFR and WRU have voluntarily given one of their votes to the PRL, LNR and RRW respectively and therefore retain one vote each.

Am I incorrect in this?

Yes. See my post above with voting structure.

[HammerofThunor]

Referring to an earlier comment by someone regarding the voting structure of the ERC, is it accurate that the combined vote of the PRO12 unions always outweigh the other participants?

I read recently that the voting is not simply two votes per union.  Rather that FFR, RFU, LNR and PRL if they voted together would equal the votes of the other four unions...

Not sure. All I know is that the French have 5 votes.

5 votes?  

My understanding was each of the Six Nations had 2 votes. IRFU, SRU and the FIR have two votes. The RFU, FFR and WRU have voluntarily given one of their votes to the PRL, LNR and RRW respectively and therefore retain one vote each.

Am I incorrect in this?

Yes.

No

[Pot Hale]

Referring to an earlier comment by someone regarding the voting structure of the ERC, is it accurate that the combined vote of the PRO12 unions always outweigh the other participants?

I read recently that the voting is not simply two votes per union.  Rather that FFR, RFU, LNR and PRL if they voted together would equal the votes of the other four unions...

Not sure. All I know is that the French have 5 votes.

5 votes?  

My understanding was each of the Six Nations had 2 votes. IRFU, SRU and the FIR have two votes. The RFU, FFR and WRU have voluntarily given one of their votes to the PRL, LNR and RRW respectively and therefore retain one vote each.

Am I incorrect in this?

Yes.

No

Hammer you just wrote that PRL have 2.5 of the 18 votes which is correct,

Eng and Frnace have ten votes, the four have eight - allowing that unions and clubs would align

[HammerofThunor]

Sorry I'm an idiot. I thought Notch wrote Am I correct in this.

Sorry again.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Referring to an earlier comment by someone regarding the voting structure of the ERC, is it accurate that the combined vote of the PRO12 unions always outweigh the other participants?

I read recently that the voting is not simply two votes per union.  Rather that FFR, RFU, LNR and PRL if they voted together would equal the votes of the other four unions...

Not sure. All I know is that the French have 5 votes.

5 votes?  

My understanding was each of the Six Nations had 2 votes. IRFU, SRU and the FIR have two votes. The RFU, FFR and WRU have voluntarily given one of their votes to the PRL, LNR and RRW respectively and therefore retain one vote each.

Am I incorrect in this?

Yes.

No

Hammer you just wrote that PRL have 2.5 of the 18 votes which is correct,

Eng and Frnace have ten votes, the four have eight - allowing that unions and clubs would align

Bill Beaumont and his pals will be getting all sorts of freebies on top of their normally bottomless supplies of G&Ts and World of Pleasuredome trip experiences.

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