Munster v Dragons, 28th September

First topic message reminder :

The sides haven't been announced yet, but I thought I'd set up a match thread anyway. How do we think the game will go?

EDIT:

Munster: Johne Murphy; Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Ivan Dineen, Simon Zebo; JJ Hanrahan, Cathal Sheridan; James Cronin, Damien Varley, John Ryan; Donncha O'Callaghan, Dave Foley; Peter O'Mahony (capt), Sean Dougall, Paddy Butler.

Replacements: Mike Sherry, David Kilcoyne, Stephen Archer, Paul O'Connell, CJ Stander, Duncan Williams, Ian Keatley, Felix Jones.

Dragons: Dan Evans, Matthew Pewtner, Ross Wardle, Jack Dixon, Tom Prydie, Kris Burton, Jonathan Evans; Phil Price, Hugh Gustafson, Francisco Chaparro, Andrew Coombs (c), Matthew Screech, Jevon Groves, Lewis Evans, Netani Talei.

Replacements: Sam Parry, Owen Evans, Dan Way, Rob Sidoli, Ieuan Jones, Richie Rees, Jason Tovey, Adam Hughes.

Is Penney trying to give match exoerience to his 2nd string props? Makes sense to me.

Why is it whenever the regions lose, they not only lose but look totally uninspired bordering on clueless in doing so? Where is the heart to put up a fight or upset the odds meant to come from?

KiaRose wrote:Is Penney trying to give match exoerience to his 2nd string props? Makes sense to me.

Not sure, was talking about the Dragons

Scrappy game by Munster. They messed up big time a short while ago when POC nearly went through.

Someone tell them Donncha is pronounced Dunnaka also.

Cath hal? Who is she?. Cohh al is the phonetic pronounciation.

Ah. someone had a word in their ear. Getting his name close enough now.

I loved the comment earlier, Enforcer, when he said DOC was now in his 16th season - and after all that time he is still getting his name wrong. But yes, has now sorted out Sheridan.

This hasn't been the best game for the neutral...

Not a patch on the hurling earlier, Notch, which was truly wonderful.

Big fan of the Gwent away kit. Very regional!

Notch wrote:This hasn't been the best game for the neutral...

It wasn't a great watch for the Dragons fan either, and I'm not sure Munster fans would have enjoyed it much even in victory. With the dominance they had in the set pieces, they should have got the bonus point. As it was, we were a softer pass from Jason Tovey away from getting an LBP.

A quick word on the ref: we're quick to criticise the man with the whistle and Neil Paterson hasn't been great in the past, but I thought he was pretty good today. Clear, consistent and generally correct.

really? I though he blew far too much and it was a very stop start affair. The fact that the dragons didn't get into munsters 22 till the 75th minute says it all. Lyn and Kingsley have been brought back down to earth with a bump after that

Not a great spectacle.Our pack continue to struggle and I suspect we will be battling it out with Edinburgh for the wooden spoon come the end of the season.
The coaches have a challenge on their hands this season.

It's a leveller but not necessarily a bad one. It shows us where we need to improve. As for the ref, it's not his fault if there are infringements. Even if he wants a free-flowing game, he can't let everything go.

Scrappy game but it was very wet in Cork and that contributed to the sloppy handling and stop start nature of the game.

For Munster there were a few good performances like Cronin, John Ryan and O'Mahony.

I think Zebo must be getting carried away with the hype because he was the worst player on the pitch.

That cross-field kick was hilarious - not quite the same standard as his back-heel in the Six Nations!

profitius wrote:Scrappy game but it was very wet in Cork and that contributed to the sloppy handling and stop start nature of the game.  

For Munster there were a few good performances like Cronin, John Ryan and O'Mahony.

I think Zebo must be getting carried away with the hype because he was the worst player on the pitch.

Wasn't a great game. Maybe Munster are focused on the 2 games to follow, but there was a definite lack of spirit. Zebo had a poor game, and was off the pace. His leg is strapped though, and maybe he's carrying a knock, although if that's true then why play? Might help excuse that wayward kick.
Expecting a much more spirited game next week, and the following, from Munster.

It was strange because that scrummaging, driving maul game used to be bread and butter to Munster, but under Penney they've been playing this expansive game and it's as if they haven't reconciled the two or learnt which game to play and when. Even though they beat us fair and square, my feeling is that they're not a great side at the moment.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It was strange because that scrummaging, driving maul game used to be bread and butter to Munster, but under Penney they've been playing this expansive game and it's as if they haven't reconciled the two or learnt which game to play and when. Even though they beat us fair and square, my feeling is that they're not a great side at the moment.

I agree with all of that Luckless. It did look last season as if they were abandoning the old playbook in favour of the new. In patches in the first few matches this season (including the pre-season games) it looked like the new pattern was finally settling down. tonight thoughjt they looked as confused as they were this time last year.

I have to say I was I bit disappointed with JJ Hanrahan. I know he hasn't played that many games at ten for Munster, but my recollection from seeing him at under-20s level and last season at Rodney Parade (although he played midfield then) was that he was a bit of a break-making outside half. I suppose conditions didn't allow that to an extent, but he was a bit of a steady Eddie tonight. It didn't matter ultimately, but still, he didn't take the reins as I thought he would. He looked quality the other times I've seen him play and he wasn't the same player tonight.

To balance it out, I'm frustrated with Jack Dixon. He has the physicality to burst through tackles but he seems to check before the goes into contact. You wouldn't think to look at him but he's quick too, so he has all the attributes, but for one reason or another it hasn't happened yet. If he ran onto the ball full pelt he'd cause anyone problems.

Dragons set piece was terrible, halfback combination was poor. Attack was bad(apart from last 5 mins only time we really entered there 22). Stupid by Coombs for the sin binning but not to sure about jevon groves. Talei was alright. Ref was crap. Disapline was poor from dragons but some positives like defensive only conceding 7 points with 13 men on the pitch. It shows what a difference richie rees has made with the impact he made missed him. But the story i heard was dragons are resting tovey and rees to go flat out against zebre and get a bonus point win. Dissapointed not to get a lsbp.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I have to say I was I bit disappointed with JJ Hanrahan. I know he hasn't played that many games at ten for Munster, but my recollection from seeing him at under-20s level and last season at Rodney Parade (although he played midfield then) was that he was a bit of a break-making outside half. I suppose conditions didn't allow that to an extent, but he was a bit of a steady Eddie tonight. It didn't matter ultimately, but still, he didn't take the reins as I thought he would. He looked quality the other times I've seen him play and he wasn't the same player tonight.

He looks like he is concentrating on doing the basics well, maybe under orders. Last season Penney was talking about playing him at 12 for a while too but ROG retired so they have to play Hanrahan at 10. They are being protective of him and I'd expect Keatley to start next week against Leinster. Once Hanrahan gains a little experience I'm sure he'll start taking more chances.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It was strange because that scrummaging, driving maul game used to be bread and butter to Munster, but under Penney they've been playing this expansive game and it's as if they haven't reconciled the two or learnt which game to play and when. Even though they beat us fair and square, my feeling is that they're not a great side at the moment.

Players who didn't start or play at all were include Kilcoyne, Sherry, Botha, Donn Ryan, POC, Stander, Coughlan, TOD, Keatley, Murray, Hurley, Lualala and Downey. The first 8 names on that list would be the first choice pack with the exception of POM.

profitius wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I have to say I was I bit disappointed with JJ Hanrahan. I know he hasn't played that many games at ten for Munster, but my recollection from seeing him at under-20s level and last season at Rodney Parade (although he played midfield then) was that he was a bit of a break-making outside half. I suppose conditions didn't allow that to an extent, but he was a bit of a steady Eddie tonight. It didn't matter ultimately, but still, he didn't take the reins as I thought he would. He looked quality the other times I've seen him play and he wasn't the same player tonight.

He looks like he is concentrating on doing the basics well, maybe under orders. Last season Penney was talking about playing him at 12 for a while too but ROG retired so they have to play Hanrahan at 10. They are being protective of him and I'd expect Keatley to start next week against Leinster. Once Hanrahan gains a little experience I'm sure he'll start taking more chances.

That would make sense. I didn't feel like he'd been given free rein. I suppose I should be glad!

How did Earls do at 13?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How did Earls do at 13?

He was alright. Made his tackles and passed well but due to the conditions and stop start nature of the game the backs didn't have too much ball. I'm like most people and think he is best playing in the back 3.

Keith Earls is an awesome attacking outside centre.  For me, that's where he should play - where he might have played had it not been for O'Driscoll. But he needs a dominant pack to play off. His defence isn't good enough if you're on the back foot.

After (by last seasons standards) our good start to the season I was hoping for at least a losing bp from the game and at half time it was looking ok.

Unfortunately our old problems at set peace came back and whilst I understand the need to rotate our squad I would have tried to keep the momentum going. I guess you have to target games that you're more likely to get a result from.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Keith Earls is an awesome attacking outside centre.  For me, that's where he should play - where he might have played had it not been for O'Driscoll. But he needs a dominant pack to play off. His defence isn't good enough if you're on the back foot.

I think I agree with you actually, Luckless. I want to see him thrive at 13, and I think he offers a danger there that no other option in Ireland offers right now. Possibly Henshaw in the future. Who knows. We need a replacement for BOD asap anyway.

Out of interest guys what or rather who is currently seen as BODs replacement, is there a pecking order or is this season huge for a few guys.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Out of interest guys what or rather who is currently seen as BODs replacement, is there a pecking order or is this season huge for a few guys.

I would say Earls is next in line. I would have said Cave as well is up there, but I don't think Schmidt sees him as a long term replacement (neither do many irish fans). Robbie Henshaw for Connacht has been getting a lot of game time at 13, he played 15 last year, but I have a good feeling about him. He is 19/20 and has already been capped for Ireland.

Other options are moving one of Luke Marshall or Stuart Olding to 13. Marshall is naturally a 12 who used to play 10, and Olding is a utility back who can play pretty much anywhere. He played mostly 10 though before playing at 12 for Ulster. Then of course there is Jared Payne when he becomes IQ next season. He is the most likely option.

One of the reasons Connacht aren't doing so well this year is they are playing Duffy at 15 instead of Henshaw, he was bloody brilliant there last season.

VinceWLB wrote:One of the reasons Connacht aren't doing so well this year is they are playing Duffy at 15 instead of Henshaw, he was bloody brilliant there last season.

Thats true. Connacht fans say Duffy looks off the pace this season and starting to show his age. Connacht have signed Samoan fullback and kicker James So'oialio (spell??, former AB Rodney's brother). He has yet to play for them.

profitius wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I have to say I was I bit disappointed with JJ Hanrahan. I know he hasn't played that many games at ten for Munster, but my recollection from seeing him at under-20s level and last season at Rodney Parade (although he played midfield then) was that he was a bit of a break-making outside half. I suppose conditions didn't allow that to an extent, but he was a bit of a steady Eddie tonight. It didn't matter ultimately, but still, he didn't take the reins as I thought he would. He looked quality the other times I've seen him play and he wasn't the same player tonight.

He looks like he is concentrating on doing the basics well, maybe under orders. Last season Penney was talking about playing him at 12 for a while too but ROG retired so they have to play Hanrahan at 10. They are being protective of him and I'd expect Keatley to start next week against Leinster. Once Hanrahan gains a little experience I'm sure he'll start taking more chances.

I think he'll be a great player, he just needs time. We've been very quick to say we haven't given youth a chance in Ireland and its true, but now we've swung to the opposite extreme were we expect the finished product at 20. 10 is obviously a position with a huge amount to master and realistically it'll take him a few seasons before he's ready. I think for a 9 or 10 it's harder to excel quickly than it is in the other back positions.

He didn't have a good game last night particularly, Hanrahan, but it's a learning experience.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Out of interest guys what or rather who is currently seen as BODs replacement, is there a pecking order or is this season huge for a few guys.

Jared Payne qualifies on residency in the summer- before he signed for Ulster, a lot of folk back in New Zealand thought he should get an All Blacks cap for his form at 13 for the Auckland Blues.

He's very much head and shoulders above any Irish 13 outside BOD in terms of ability so it'll be a no-brainer for Schmidt I think ultimately... the guy is incredibly classy.

Notch wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Out of interest guys what or rather who is currently seen as BODs replacement, is there a pecking order or is this season huge for a few guys.

Jared Payne qualifies on residency in the summer- before he signed for Ulster, a lot of folk back in New Zealand thought he should get an All Blacks cap for his form at 13 for the Auckland Blues.

He's very much head and shoulders above any Irish 13 outside BOD in terms of ability so it'll be a no-brainer for Schmidt I think ultimately... the guy is incredibly classy.

I'd agree with that. A classy silky player. No one else currently. He lost a fair bit of pace after his injury though.

As daft as Coombe's yellow was, they should bring back raking for sides like Munster that get away with lying all over the ball.

I thought Munster were pretty poor, given they have a decent squad on paper.

They still don't seem to be able to produce any decent attacking play.... the backs still stand far too deep, and but for the odd bit of individual play they look very pedantic in attack.

Johny Murphy looked very good though and Conway wasn't bad. Earls looks in decent form but Zebo looks like things have gone to his head a bit.

The forwards look a bit more sold this year though. Ten could be a problem going into the heino.

munkian wrote:As daft as Coombe's yellow was, they should bring back raking for sides like Munster that get away with lying all over the ball.

Legal rucking should never have been taken out of game in the first place, many players myself included have had second thoughts about lying on wrong side killing more etc after a bit of rucking.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:As daft as Coombe's yellow was, they should bring back raking for sides like Munster that get away with lying all over the ball.

Legal rucking should never have been taken out of game in the first place, many players myself included have had second thoughts about lying on wrong side killing more etc after a bit of rucking.

I agree with both of this. Haven't been able to comment all week due to holiday, but it's clear Coombs was frustrated. It was a pretty bad place to ruck/stamp, but a stronger ref who stops teams killing the ball like that and there isn't such an issue.

Was very disappointed with Gus though. I don't think he is a hooker at all and won't be convinced otherwise. Need to blood Dee in the LV, I think.