Wot? No citings?

After a weekend of high tackles, head stampings and tip tackles, I'm surprised that the citings committee hasn't announced a few summons yet.

"C'est les biased ERC commisioneurs de citing"

All dealt with on the field? I didn't see anything missed by the officials that merited a citing.

TJ wrote:All dealt with on the field?  I didn't see anything missed by the officials that merited a citing.

That's what I was thinking too.

Perpignan player was shown red for a tip.
Then Jonny May scored a scintillating winner try... no complaints from Glaws.
I just had to mention that. 

I'd issue a few team citings on the basis of dereliction of duty - e.g. Exeter, Saints and Toulon. But not trying isn't punishable under the regs even in the pro game unfortunately.

Lads, you are forgetting the half dozen injustices against Tiggers that Portnoy spotted!

Waht about poor Glasgow. Toulon clearly cheated by having all those international stars on the bench. the bench should be journeymen and mediocre cast offs from other teams.

oh

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Lads, you are forgetting the half dozen injustices against Tiggers that Portnoy spotted!

ohhh so that is Portnoy's Complaint

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'd issue a few team citings on the basis of dereliction of duty - e.g. Exeter, Saints and Toulon. But not trying isn't punishable under the regs even in the pro game unfortunately.

Wot? No Rabo teams?

gregortree wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Lads, you are forgetting the half dozen injustices against Tiggers that Portnoy spotted!

ohhh so that is Portnoy's Complaint

 

At least neither Ulster nor Leicester administered unlicensed facial cosmetic surgery in public to spoil a good game and a fair result.

maybe the ERC got rid of all their citing officers a bit in advance  

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'd issue a few team citings on the basis of dereliction of duty - e.g. Exeter, Saints and Toulon. But not trying isn't punishable under the regs even in the pro game unfortunately.

Port, I know you are referring to the last 30 minutes of the Toulon and Exeter matches, but still.........
Did you want Exe or Toulon to heap 60 or 70 points on competition which was already classed? They easily could have. Saints, on the other hand, could have used a wayward try or two.

Toulon cheated. that bench is definitely not allowed.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:After a weekend of high tackles, head stampings and tip tackles, I'm surprised that the citings committee hasn't announced a few summons yet.

I am suprised there was no citing for a certain young turk, not that I think it deserves any more of a punishment than he got, but just to make it clear the erc are being deligent when it comes to boot to head contact.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:After a weekend of high tackles, head stampings and tip tackles, I'm surprised that the citings committee hasn't announced a few summons yet.

I am suprised there was no citing for a certain young turk, not that I think it deserves any more of a punishment than he got, but just to make it clear the erc are being deligent when it comes to boot to head contact.

Good point. A citing is not proof that an offense occurred or needs further punishment, its just a request that specific events need more investigation.

I would guess they looked at the incident and decided the punishment was reasonable - as most folk would agree.  It was reckless not intentional and was a rake not a stamp

TJ wrote:I would guess they looked at the incident and decided the punishment was reasonable - as most folk would agree.  It was reckless not intentional and was a rake not a stamp

I agree that it seemed pretty unintentional, especially as I think if Samson meant it Care would have found his head buried in the turf, as opposed to without a mark. However, I think a citing may have been a good idea, just to be seen as taking any incident with a boot contecting with the face/head seriously. I guess maybe they decided, like you said, there was nothing in it and it would be easier not to waste time with it (damn site cheaper too).

Citings occur from 4 different areas;
1 - Citing commissioner: Try to side with their referees and with the ability to call back the TMO for foul play it reduces the ability of the citing commissioner to analyse instances of foul play as if the ref makes reference to it and makes a decision based on his view, the citing commissioner's hands are tied.

2 - the home team: All teams did something, partially worried to cite an opposition player in case the opposing team decides to cite a bit of foul play one of your players committed

3 - the away team: All teams did something, partially worried to cite an opposition player in case the opposing team decides to cite a bit of foul play one of your players committed

4 - the medjia: Only concentrating on the positive spin as it is the start of the competition.

gregortree wrote:Perpignan player was shown red for a tip.
Then Jonny May scored a scintillating winner try... no complaints from Glaws.
I just had to mention that. 

Just in case anyone missed grgor's post I thought I'd quote it!

Mafi must be cited and banned for the tackle otherwise the discplinary process cannot be taken seriosuly...

HongKongCherry wrote:

gregortree wrote:Perpignan player was shown red for a tip.
Then Jonny May scored a scintillating winner try... no complaints from Glaws.
I just had to mention that. 

Just in case anyone missed grgor's post I thought I'd quote it!

Mafi must be cited and banned for the tackle otherwise the discplinary process cannot be taken seriosuly...

Is a red card not meant to be an automatic citing review?  Did POC not have that happen to him for his tap on the chin of an osprey player hanging out of him on the edge of a breakdown?

Nalaga cited - Clermont not happy

Clermont say "We want all the text of the IRB which states that it is forbidden to lift your knees when you run"

But looking at the incident it is definitely not part of his normal stride and looks possibly intentional. Wonder what the citing committee will say.

http://balls.ie/rugby/gif-nalaga-yellow-card-for-knee-to-marc-andreus-head/

Pat_Mustard wrote:Clermont say "We want all the text of the IRB which states that it is forbidden to lift your knees when you run"

But looking at the incident it is definitely not part of his normal stride and looks possibly intentional. Wonder what the citing committee will say.

http://balls.ie/rugby/gif-nalaga-yellow-card-for-knee-to-marc-andreus-head/

Isn't there something about as the ball carried your not allowed to attempt to jump into/over the tackler? Honestly can't say where I have picked up that idea from, but I am sure when 'ickle Shane did it before that the commentators were saying it was technically illegal. Nalaga's looks bad in slow motion, but don't PI players tend to do that extra long stride/stamp thing quite often as they are going into contact, and I have never seen it pulled up before.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Pat_Mustard wrote:Clermont say "We want all the text of the IRB which states that it is forbidden to lift your knees when you run"

But looking at the incident it is definitely not part of his normal stride and looks possibly intentional. Wonder what the citing committee will say.

Isn't there something about as the ball carried your not allowed to attempt to jump into/over the tackler?  Honestly can't say where I have picked up that idea from, but I am sure when 'ickle Shane did it before that the commentators were saying it was technically illegal.  Nalaga's looks bad in slow motion, but don't PI players tend to do that extra long stride/stamp thing quite often as they are going into contact, and I have never seen it pulled up before.

ouch, that looks bad. there's nothing wrong with picking your knees up when you run, its probably just a good idea to put them down again before you make contact with a players head, or at least try not to make the knee the first point of contact.

on the flipside the tackler was in an awful position and actually looks like he wants to get hit in the head! makes no effort to use his arms!

will be very interested in citing commissioner's report.

Pat_Mustard wrote:Clermont say "We want all the text of the IRB which states that it is forbidden to lift your knees when you run"

But looking at the incident it is definitely not part of his normal stride and looks possibly intentional. Wonder what the citing committee will say.

http://balls.ie/rugby/gif-nalaga-yellow-card-for-knee-to-marc-andreus-head/

Just looking at that clip.  What was Andreus doing! You never tackle a winger (or any player) by putting your head in front of their momentum. Andreus should have been using proper technique, arm around the front of the legs, head in behind the knees, and let your momentum swing around the back of the player and take the legs away from under him. Andreus is only 5 foot nothing, and he is bent in half with the wrong body position.

Thought the same myself and maybe Nalaga will say he wasn't expecting the tackler's head to be in front of his knee! My gut says for that reason it will be considered reckless at most rather than deliberate.

ScarletSpiderman, I remember learning when I was young that jumping into a tackle is illegal, but I don't think there's a specific law about it. It just tends to come under some general dangerous play law IIRC.

Pat_Mustard wrote:Thought the same myself and maybe Nalaga will say he wasn't expecting the tackler's head to be in front of his knee! My gut says for that reason it will be considered reckless at most rather than deliberate.

ScarletSpiderman, I remember learning when I was young that jumping into a tackle is illegal, but I don't think there's a specific law about it. It just tends to come under some general dangerous play law IIRC.

i definitely remember getting pinged for it when i played at U-18... jumped into a tackle while turning my back, and my heel landed on the tacklers tackle! that was in 1989 though.

nalaga doesnt jump at all to be fair.

maybe andreu will get cited for recklessley headbutting nalaga's knee?

Pat_Mustard wrote:Thought the same myself and maybe Nalaga will say he wasn't expecting the tackler's head to be in front of his knee! My gut says for that reason it will be considered reckless at most rather than deliberate.

ScarletSpiderman, I remember learning when I was young that jumping into a tackle is illegal, but I don't think there's a specific law about it. It just tends to come under some general dangerous play law IIRC.

My gut says that he lifted his knee because he was cheating a fair tackle.

And yes Raising the knee is dangerous play - but it has to be a deliberate action. How Andy Ripley got away with it for all those years was because it part of his normal gait.

Samson Lee cited:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24539685

VietGwentRevisited wrote:Samson Lee cited:

bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24539685

it does worry me in sport when i see 20yr olds who are that big and overly aggressive. i can't help but think of chalmers the younger and wonder...

probably nothing to it whatsoever, but by the time i hear about doping in sport it usually means its a lot more widespread than a single isolated case.

am probably a bit jaded from cycling and triathlon....

Is triathlon bad? Pls tell all

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Is triathlon bad?  Pls tell all

now i am fairly sure you are winding me up, but since you asked,

cycling: aerobic endurance sport where epo or synthetic epo can enhance performance on climbs (where power/weight is more important than wind resistance), and there is big  big money = massive drugs cheating. still.

triathlon: pretty much the same as above, but v little money in the sport for pros yet, hence less doping so far. but there have been quite a few instances of age-groupers (amateurs) doing blood-doping in the last 2 years - insane i know!

rugby: more money = more upside to making it = more people are going to try to bulk up aggressively at youth/amateur level in order to break through.

even if you were winding me up, i've now got it off my chest.

Jumping into a tackle is illegal and there is a rule against it. Shane Williams used to get pinged for it , I saw him get pinged for it two or three times in his career.

Can someone please clarify the law, is it just jumping into a tackle that’s illegal? There were calls for Cronin to get pinged against Cardiff because he hurdled over the tacklers arm. It wasn’t dangerous as he had side stepped the defender and just jumped over the tackle, not into another player.

quinsforever wrote:

VietGwentRevisited wrote:Samson Lee cited:

bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24539685

it does worry me in sport when i see 20yr olds who are that big and overly aggressive. i can't help but think of chalmers the younger and wonder...

probably nothing to it whatsoever, but by the time i hear about doping in sport it usually means its a lot more widespread than a single isolated case.

am probably a bit jaded from cycling and triathlon....

Samson is a bit unfortuanate, he has some traveller blood (a fair bit I believe), so being firey is in his nature. That said I am pretty sure the boot was more careless than reckless, and definately not malicious. Also I can't thing of a time I have seen him actually get involved in any punching etc (so far this season we have had Gareth Davies, and Gareth Owen carded for punching).

Mickado wrote:Can someone please clarify the law, is it just jumping into a tackle that’s illegal? There were calls for Cronin to get pinged against Cardiff because he hurdled over the tacklers arm. It wasn’t dangerous as he had side stepped the defender and just jumped over the tackle, not into another player.

If the runner breaks his normal stride like jumping into the tackle or leading with the knee or 'hands-off' in a dangerous manner (say with an elbow) as I understand are all illegal although I'm buggered if I can track down the exact law(s) proscribing them.

Mickado wrote:Can someone please clarify the law, is it just jumping into a tackle that’s illegal? There were calls for Cronin to get pinged against Cardiff because he hurdled over the tacklers arm. It wasn’t dangerous as he had side stepped the defender and just jumped over the tackle, not into another player.

Jumping into the tackle is not, I believe, an automatic illegal act. ie the law book does not define and prohibit it. However it would be covered under law 10.4 Dangerous Play and Misconduct. This defines a lot of illegal acts as seen here http://www.irbplayerwelfare.com/?documentid=63 but most importantly in this case is the clause at the beginning:

Foul play is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, repeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.


Reading around Ref forums, hurdling into/over a player or suddenly raising your knees into a player (so changing stride) would be deemed dangerous. Kicking away froim a player (or goose-step) would not. It then gets contentious when the attempted tackle is side on but most refs seem to view that as dangerous too. Certainly as far as I can see the general consensus amongst refs is that this one should have been blown:

http://www.rugbydump.com/2010/10/1671/midweek-madness-shane-williams-hurdles-topsy-ojo

Nothing under the Laws of dangerous play specifically regarding jumping into or over a potential tackler. Could fall under the generic 'Acts contrary to good sportmanship', but I guess that would be open to the ref's interpretation and the exact context of the incident.

Punching and Striking (Law 10.4A) specifically includes reference to striking with the knees. By that, I reckon Nalaga has a case to answer, but you do also have to consider the mismatch in size between him and Andreu, plus that the tackler gets into an awful position. If Nalaga was just trying to 'hitch kick' away from where he expected the tackler to be (something Martin Offiah was particularly good at in RL), then it is just an unfortunate accident although it does look bad.

dummy_half wrote:Nothing under the Laws of dangerous play specifically regarding jumping into or over a potential tackler. Could fall under the generic 'Acts contrary to good sportmanship', but I guess that would be open to the ref's interpretation and the exact context of the incident.

Punching and Striking (Law 10.4A) specifically includes reference to striking with the knees. By that, I reckon Nalaga has a case to answer, but you do also have to consider the mismatch in size between him and Andreu, plus that the tackler gets into an awful position. If Nalaga was just trying to 'hitch kick' away from where he expected the tackler to be (something Martin Offiah was particularly good at in RL), then it is just an unfortunate accident although it does look bad.

It is an interesting one.  Take this incident with one slight change, what if Nalaga's foot was planted.  Then his full weight would have been on that leg, and Andreu comes in from an angle at knee height.  Bye bye knee (it is the type of hit causing fierce trouble in nfl at the minute).  So if Nalaga hadn't got his leg off the ground, that 'tackle' by Andreu s could have, potentially, ended his career.  The action by Nalaga isn't necessarily so clear cut as to cause harm to Andreu, it is more an action to protect his own welfare and it would have been fine if Andreu didn't put is head in the completely wrong place to make a tackle (I would give out to an kid if he tried to tackle that way, I wouldn't go after the guy running with the ball).

VietGwentRevisited wrote:

Mickado wrote:Can someone please clarify the law, is it just jumping into a tackle that’s illegal? There were calls for Cronin to get pinged against Cardiff because he hurdled over the tacklers arm. It wasn’t dangerous as he had side stepped the defender and just jumped over the tackle, not into another player.

Jumping into the tackle is not, I believe, an automatic illegal act. ie the law book does not define and prohibit it. However it would be covered under law 10.4 Dangerous Play and Misconduct. This defines a lot of illegal acts as seen here http://www.irbplayerwelfare.com/?documentid=63 but most importantly in this case is the clause at the beginning:

Foul play is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, repeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.


Reading around Ref forums, hurdling into/over a player or suddenly raising your knees into a player (so changing stride) would be deemed dangerous. Kicking away froim a player (or goose-step) would not. It then gets contentious when the attempted tackle is side on but most refs seem to view that as dangerous too. Certainly as far as I can see the general consensus amongst refs is that this one should have been blown:

http://www.rugbydump.com/2010/10/1671/midweek-madness-shane-williams-hurdles-topsy-ojo

As I see it Shane had already sidestepped the tackle and with consummate skill hurdled the tackler's legs. No penalty imo.
I only watched once in real time with no commentary.

quinsforever wrote:

VietGwentRevisited wrote:Samson Lee cited:

bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24539685

it does worry me in sport when i see 20yr olds who are that big and overly aggressive. i can't help but think of chalmers the younger and wonder...

probably nothing to it whatsoever, but by the time i hear about doping in sport it usually means its a lot more widespread than a single isolated case.

am probably a bit jaded from cycling and triathlon....

Careful quins' that a very strong accusation! Don't forget there are lots of young aggressive 20 something year olds in the English game also, such as Tuilagi and Farrell, but you don't hear them being accused of using illegal chemical aids!

As for Lee, his studs came into contact with a players face, whether he was lying on the ball or not, there is no place for that behaviour in Rugby. The same happened in the Rabo recently when Coombs stamped on the head of an opponent and got yellow carded when I was expecting a red but no citing. Also a similar incident with Tipuric in last year's 6N where the ref missed it and again there was no citing.

As for what will happen to Lee, I am sorry but I have no confidence whatsoever in these tribunals, the result could be anything from having the yellow rescinded to a lifetime ban. Rugby needs to set some ground rules for these offences and stick to them.