Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

I doubt he will go, he's not at the stage of his career where he could handle the workload of a long, brutal Top14 season.

On the Captaincy

O'Driscoll: won't be there for the RWC
O'Connell: always injured
Best: throwing falls to pieces regularly whic would demoralize the team.
Heaslip: Terrible captain. Anyone but Heaslip please.
O’Mahony: Not guaranteed starter.
Sexton: Traitor. Won't be able to give his all for Ireland as he'll be flogged in France.
Kearney: Playing cr@p
Healy: headcase
Conor Murray: not mature enough

There's no options jumping out at us, until you think

Sean O'Brien

One of our few world class players. Humble. Inspirational game changer. Will get the benefit of the doubt more at the breakdown if he's captain. You know it makes sense.

He's never struck me as one of the candidates. He's not a big talker on the pitch. O'Connell or Best, they talk a lot on the pitch to their teammates, keep them focused through the game. I've never seen O'Brien fulfilling that role. It will be O'Mahony or Heaslip at the Rugby World Cup, I think O'Driscoll should be Captain as long as he's in the team.

If it's between O'Mahoney and Heaslip then I hope Schmidt goes for O'Mahoney. Picking Heaslip would be starting off his tenure with a big mistake.

Do you not think we should take into account that BOD definitely won't be there for the RWC? Might as well give an extra season to a new captain before the biggest event.

At this point I would say O'Mahony is a guaranteed starter.. I mean lets face it, the chances of a fully fit and firing Ferris coming back are rather slim at this point. O'Mahony is highly rated as both a player and as a leader.

He is the best choice for the captaincy I think. Heaslip will retain it for now though, probably.

I think that we have a number of leaders in the team and it's not just one guy who shoulders the burden himself. I don't think having BOD as Captain stops any other future Captaincy candidate from stepping up as a leader and if it does they probably shouldn't be considered for the job anyway.

It'll be O'Connell, with Best as vice captain. Joe won't chance a Leinster man, plus Heaslip and POC hate each other.

Draw straws.

All joking aside my choice for Captain would be Sexton.  Generally abrasive, mouthy, emotionally involved for the full 80, a natural organiser and tidy-upper - and a game-changer (when in the mood  )

I don't go with this tired, now quaint, formula that Captains are naturally one of the big basterauds in the forwards.  That's just old fashioned rubbish in this professional sport.
Your Captain is a driver, a herder.  He's the heartbeat of the team, whatever position he plays.  

And that's why O'Driscoll was never the best choice - he's too selfish - and looks after his own heart (in a beautiful way).  

Paul was a good one but he's grinding bone on bone these days and would give the damning impression to outsiders that the old geriatric 'Golden Generation' are still reining supreme.

We need to keep moving forwards, not backwards. Sexton is Keane

Would Bowe make a decent captain?

Bar injury, would be a definite starter.

Vocal enough, good character.

Top player.

Bowe - no.

Sexton would have been an option but we can't have a money grabbing turn coat as captain.

Options are grim - we night need to get someone with an Irish granny.

Best for me. He's the only nailed on starter, that's captain material and isn't an injury concern.

If Schmidt keeps the captaincy as low key as he's been saying it shouldn't be too big a deal to change it in the future.

So nobody's going for my Sean O'Brien left field choice.

If you could guaranteed me O'Connell would be fit for over three quarter of our games he's be the best choice.

Nope.

Quinny, Jackman and steady Eddie talking some serious bollix there on against the head... that's an hour of my life I'll never get back ...

What were they talkin about rodders?

We're going to walk all over the ABs?

The only guaranteed starter with leadership qualities who will be around in 2015 and least likely to be injured is Sexton. He is in the perfect position to execute Schmidt's plans and direct the team on the pitch. Joe knows his game well and he knows Joe's methods well. Sexton is a new generation who knows all the players and has been in the Rabo long enough to know the new ones as well. Moving to France could arguably be good for a captain to expand his horizons with different techniques and motivations.

If it doesn't matter in what league a player is playing to be selected then it shouldn't matter to the captaincy either. The only issue about playing in the T14 is that Sexton might be alienated from the rest of the team or even resented echoing the traitor jibes above. However if the Ireland players want to win they know Sexton is a key element in success so respect shouldn't be an issue.

I think the 'traitor' jibes are very much tongue in cheek Aukster

... especially from rascal Rodders there, who I think was throwing a little shot across my bow as regards another chat we were having a few days ago  

The captain will have to be based in Ireland as they are needed for lots of off-field stuff as well. And for instance, last week, the captain would have left the camp on Thursday to go back to his club to play at the weekend.

By the way, POC is going no where. From joe.ie

HEINEKEN CUP
5 days ago
O’Connell confirms he will finish career at Munster while Donnacha Ryan holds talks with Perpignan

Sin é wrote:The captain will have to be based in Ireland as they are needed for lots of off-field stuff as well. And for instance, last week, the captain would have left the camp on Thursday to go back to his club to play at the weekend.

Yep.

I think that it would send out the wrong message to give it to the one guy who isn't based in Ireland.

Sin é wrote:The captain will have to be based in Ireland as they are needed for lots of off-field stuff as well. And for instance, last week, the captain would have left the camp on Thursday to go back to his club to play at the weekend.

By the way, POC is going no where. From joe.ie

HEINEKEN CUP
5 days ago
O’Connell confirms he will finish career at Munster while Donnacha Ryan holds talks with Perpignan

The posted article was from mid October. POC was never going anywhere...

POM would be the best choice of Captain.

Feckless Rogue wrote:What were they talkin about rodders?

Eddie was trying to whisk an egg with a cheese grater...

No just Eddie doing a tactical critique on Joes 2 man to a ruck policy on attack, saying it may not work at international level because the collisions are harder to win and we could get turned over if Joe can't adapt his style. Pretty much Eddie bumming himself up a la Clive Woodward.

Meanwhile you have Quinny waffling how Joe needs to start with the old guard like D'arcy to get results and to forget about the long term but still needs to build a squad through team training sessions.

Some good points made by the panel but mostly wrapped up in self motivated attention seeking garbage.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:The captain will have to be based in Ireland as they are needed for lots of off-field stuff as well. And for instance, last week, the captain would have left the camp on Thursday to go back to his club to play at the weekend.

Yep.

I think that it would send out the wrong message to give it to the one guy who isn't based in Ireland.

Agree, Captain needs to be a role model on and off the field and picking a guy who is based abroad contradicts IRFU selection policy and send out the wrong message.

Pity because I agree with Aukster that Sexton is the obvious candidate.

It's O'Connell anyways, just hasn't been announced because he's injured.

Place the Captain - whoever he is - outside Lansdowne after every home game lost for about two hours, and let children throw rotten eggs at them.

Yep, that is a job for a home based player right enough, as Sexton will be under orders to get the first plane outta here.

Tony Ward reckons Billy Dardis should be called up to the Ireland squad.   http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/dardis-can-follow-watsons-lead-to-grace-big-stage-29725971.html

Who?

Anyway, from reading the press it now seems that with Sexton not playing at the weekend he's now less likely to be rested for Samoa and that O'Connell, Healy and O'Brien are on course to be fit too- might be a much stronger XV than expected last week.

We'll need it.

Notch wrote:Who?

Billy Dardis. 18 or 19 years old fullback who has yet to play for the Ireland U20s or in the AIL I think.

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:Who?

Billy Dardis. 18 or 19 years old fullback who has yet to play for the Ireland U20s or in the AIL I think.

So a kid fresh out of school who will be in an Academy next year at best. Bit of a leftfield choice there.

Notch wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:Who?

Billy Dardis. 18 or 19 years old fullback who has yet to play for the Ireland U20s or in the AIL I think.

So a kid fresh out of school who will be in an Academy next year at best. Bit of a leftfield choice there.

As Ward pointed out Gatland did it before with Darcy. However, at the time Darcy had just single handedly blitzed all opposition in the Leinster senior cup to take the trophy for Clongowes earning him a call up for the summer tour to SA while still in school.

Dont know much about Dardis but Ward goes to a lot of these schools matches and I think he coached Gerards for a while so Im sure he is decent however not sure he has hit the heights Darcy did as a schoolboy.

I think that's Ward's point. Sometimes always thinking from inside a box will keep you firmly in one.

England have 12 teams. Ireland have four. They'll draw wild cards from other AP sides; we don't have that great a luxury but we do certainly allow ourselves to feel contained by that restriction of four.

I guess he's just saying broadening our horizons into previous no-go areas might unearth shards of hope. It certainly wouldn't do any harm to have one or two absolute outsiders feel the effects of a full on Irish International camp every season.

Ireland were -11pts against Samoa but its drifted out to -12pts now.

I don't see why Heaslip shouldn't continue as captain. Yes we had our worst 6Nations in history but with that in mind it was a team/squad failure and despite what many say I think Heaslip didn't do badly in the 6N. He has been playing pretty well this year and is second choice captain for Leinster with a very impressive win ratio as captain.

There's a lot of quality young players in and around the provinces who aren't involved- further along a learning curve and therefore going to gain more from it.

In 1998 we had no depth at all, now we have a bit.

I think the reason Heaslip shouldn't continue as Captain is there are three or four guys I feel are better for the job.

SecretFly wrote:I think that's Ward's point.  Sometimes always thinking from inside a box will keep you firmly in one.

England have 12 teams.  Ireland have four.  They'll draw wild cards from other AP sides; we don't have that great a luxury but we do certainly allow ourselves to feel contained by that restriction of four.

I guess he's just saying broadening our horizons into previous no-go areas might unearth shards of hope.  It certainly wouldn't do any harm to have one or two absolute outsiders feel the effects of a full on Irish International camp every season.

The problem is that the gap between the AIL and provinces has grown dramatically since D'arcy, BOD and the likes came through, when it was common place to pick guys from the league.

No way could you pluck a lad at that level now and stick him in with the internationals. He may have the talent but the physical leap would be too much imo.

It would be great if we could broaden the net but the AIL and schools rugby needs a huge shot in the arm first.

Now that we have a bit of depth... we've decended the rankings ladder quicker than a fireman with a heavy casualty on his shoulder.
It doesn't always compute that more experience gives you the edge.  Edge is edge, and you're born with most of it.  I still insist we're too controlled by our ideas of succession - "When he retires, I'm next"
No - are you good enough to be next? - if not, you don't have any rights to being next simply because you're a name at a Province who plays the required position.
Indeed, that's an idea that should be actually gone ahead with now that I'm really thinking about it. When International periods are over, when Schmidt is stuck at a desk (something he hates); he should have dedicated weeks where he brings in squads of fringe/academy players and put them through the full International camp deal that he'd do with the seniors.
Get him and his International team coaches actively and practically involved in the upcoming generation rather than just speechifying and going around looking. Get them involved in the practicalities and the teaching Schmidt could impart out on a field.

Sorry Rodders, didn't see your post before posting mine.

Billy Dardis is already in the Leinster Academy. Not saying he should make an Ireland Squad this season, just pointing that out. He hasn't had a run in the B&I yet.

What is people's problem with Heaslip as Captain? Our 6N performance was down to many other factors before it was down to his captaincy.

He is never injured and is one of the first names on the teamsheet. Class act.

Personally I would go with O'Connell as I think he would unify the team because he is not from Leinster. That and the fact that he is a great leader, great player and great bloke. He is not perfect though and can go into "ginger whinger" mode with refs.

I would have no prob with Drico as "interim" captain either.

Not sure who else I would settle for ahead of Jamie though. O'Mahony is Munster captain as well and still adapting to that role. Sexton is based out foreign as has been pointed out. Best perhaps. Another great player and great bloke, with the added bonus of "not being from Leinster" No one else springs to mind.

He is embarrassing. You'd think he was have learned from the criticism he received for wearing head phones and no shoes at the coin toss.



He picked up a yellow card in the Six Nations - that didn't help Ireland chances (and his disciplinary record is poor in comparision to others). i.e., Leinster 8 Yellow Cards. To put that in context, Alan Quinlan got 3 in his Munster career.

I think you do POC a disservice by mentioning that a good reason to make him captain is because he isn't from Leinster.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Billy Dardis is already in the Leinster Academy. Not saying he should make an Ireland Squad this season, just pointing that out. He hasn't had a run in the B&I yet.

What is people's problem with Heaslip as Captain? Our 6N performance was down to many other factors before it was down to his captaincy.

He is never injured and is one of the first names on the teamsheet. Class act.

Personally I would go with O'Connell as I think he would unify the team because he is not from Leinster. That and the fact that he is a great leader, great player and great bloke. He is not perfect though and can go into "ginger whinger" mode with refs.

I would have no prob with Drico as "interim" captain either.

Not sure who else I would settle for ahead of Jamie though. O'Mahony is Munster captain as well and still adapting to that role. Sexton is based out foreign as has been pointed out. Best perhaps. Another great player and great bloke, with the added bonus of "not being from Leinster" No one else springs to mind.

I agree I think Heaslip makes a perfectly good captain. He could afford to tone down the tweets and be a little smarter about how he presents himself when captain but he certainly is captain material and some of the comments about him during the last 6N was so wide of the mark.

That said I would also give it to POC.

Heaslip doesn't exactly strike you as being a leader of men. He is more like 'one of the lads'. POC or Best would be my favs. POM is already Munster captain and young, Sexton is playing abroad.


SOB would be an interesting choice too and a 'lead by example' type of captain. He would be respected by everyone.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Billy Dardis is already in the Leinster Academy. Not saying he should make an Ireland Squad this season, just pointing that out. He hasn't had a run in the B&I yet.

What is people's problem with Heaslip as Captain? Our 6N performance was down to many other factors before it was down to his captaincy.

He is never injured and is one of the first names on the teamsheet. Class act.

Personally I would go with O'Connell as I think he would unify the team because he is not from Leinster. That and the fact that he is a great leader, great player and great bloke. He is not perfect though and can go into "ginger whinger" mode with refs.

I would have no prob with Drico as "interim" captain either.

Not sure who else I would settle for ahead of Jamie though. O'Mahony is Munster captain as well and still adapting to that role. Sexton is based out foreign as has been pointed out. Best perhaps. Another great player and great bloke, with the added bonus of "not being from Leinster" No one else springs to mind.

That is the last word I would use to describe Heaslip, especially as his play on the field hasn't very classy for the last while. Yes he has the odd great game for Leinster, but I can't remember the last time he was all that great internationally. I personally wouldn't start the guy.

What is he doing in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHAr0X4xFqc

The captain isn't a huge issue, with the likes of POM, BOD, POC, Best, Heaslip, SOB and others around there will be plenty of leaders on the field and plenty who have captained their provinces so picking someone inexperienced or who may not be seen as an obvious choice there will be plenty in his ear guiding him

marty2086 wrote:The captain isn't a huge issue, with the likes of POM, BOD, POC, Best, Heaslip, SOB and others around there will be plenty of leaders on the field and plenty who have captained their provinces so picking someone inexperienced or who may not be seen as an obvious choice there will be plenty in his ear guiding him

I agree. Too much is made of it.

Sin é wrote:He is embarrassing. You'd think he was have learned from the criticism he received for wearing head phones and no shoes at the coin toss.

He is in his 20s what the fock do you want? He is not the type of lad who is going to be out bringing in the sheep or whatever. Get over it.

As an Aulfellah meself I find the trousers round the ankles thing a bit cringe, but that's how dem youngfellahs wear them nowadays. Good youngfellahs AND bad youngfellahs

You are being a bit embarrassing yourself picking out such things. It is the equivalent of an Urban person finding the "down on the farm" thing embarrassing.

Sin é wrote:
He picked up a yellow card in the Six Nations - that didn't help Ireland chances (and his disciplinary record is poor in comparision to others). i.e., Leinster 8 Yellow Cards. To put that in context, Alan Quinlan got 3 in his Munster career.

Hard to believe that stat, but if it's true you have a point. His kneeing of McCaw (No matter how much we would all like to knee the focker) is another one. He can lose the head on occasion.

Sin é wrote:
I think you do POC a disservice by mentioning that a good reason to make him captain is because he isn't from Leinster.

You must have missed this bit.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:the fact that he is a great leader, great player and great bloke.

Funny how some people only see what they want.

Too much is made of it...


...and yet.... and yet...if the next Captain is a new captain there'll be reams and reams of stuff written about it in all the usual papers.... even in here.

Yes, I think it's an overdone and over-written role - but many old rugby heads and journalists will still make a big song and dance about it - what it means for the player himself, what it means to his family, what it means for the style of play Schmidt hopes to play, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Just look at the big deals that were made and unmade about both Best and Heaslip taking on the role.  Heaslip especially was dogged by it, as if him being suddenly called 'Captain' was expected to be enough to turn around an already quickly sinking ship.  And because he was powerless to stall the sinking, then he as captain was ultimately responsible.

Yes, much too much guff is written about 'Captains' and the heroics that is expected of them because they have a militaristic title to their name.

gleesonisgod wrote:What is he doing in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHAr0X4xFqc

Being a legend?

gleesonisgod wrote:That is the last word I would use to describe Heaslip, especially as his play on the field hasn't very classy for the last while. Yes he has the odd great game for Leinster, but I can't remember the last time he was all that great internationally. I personally wouldn't start the guy.

What is he doing in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHAr0X4xFqc

Luckilly Leinster, Ireland and Lions coaches disagree (Phew!) The guy rarely has a bad game. He has games when he does more grunt work that showy ball carrying, but rarely has a howler.

What's he doing in the video? Acting the eejit. Have you never done that? Probably were not so many cameras around when you did eh?

Again. If that is your evidence that he is not captain material than you are reaching big time.

What people seem to have a problem with is "THEIR PERCEPTION" of who Jamie Heaslip is. Not who he actually is. Sure he likes to play it cool when he is out and about, but he is a seriously committed professional when it comes to the Rugby.

Guys like Donners act the mick too, (and he is also ultra pro in his Rugby) but they are not criticised for it in the same way.

One can have a perception of a public figure which can be waaaay off once you meet them. For example. Another number 8 Mr L Dayglow.

I thought he was the biggest plonker on the planet. And while he may have plonkerish tendencies, he is a very decent guy in the flesh.

Same with the others mentioned.