End In Sight To Euro Mess (Pt. 2)

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:Wouldn't be too interested in Toulon helping keep the dying ERC competitions alive.

Whats better from an Irish/Celtic point of view-

a) Toulon help the Heineken Cup survive but continue their wild spending unchecked
b) ERC competitions are dropped, new 20 team competitions start including Celtic sides, the LNR imposes strict financial penalties on teams who rely exclusively on expensive imports.

For me b) may see the status quo change in a way which is not necessarily in our favour, but it will still allow the Irish provinces to be major powers in Europe on and off the field with the right management in both areas.

But without the culture of charismatic super-rich chairmen buying up talent from elsewhere changing in France we may not be able to keep our best players in Ireland. The likes of Boudjellal and their millions are a bigger threat to us than reform of European competitions.

He can sling his hook in conclusion. Most other sides in the competition have some kind of identity with many homegrown players. His side of imported superstars shouldn't be allowed to become the new normal.

Why is choice restricted to either (a) or (b)? What about (a), but with the Unions imposing those same penalties on clubs breaking whatever foreign player cap?

Notch wrote:It's not. I just think we're better off at the negotiating table with the PRL/LNR than trying to keep the ERC alive with the help of Mr Boudjellal.

He's just mouthing off anyway- there's nothing he can do about these LNR reforms and he knows it. So he's trying to put a hammer through the spokes of the new competitions.

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:It's not. I just think we're better off at the negotiating table with the PRL/LNR than trying to keep the ERC alive with the help of Mr Boudjellal.

He's just mouthing off anyway- there's nothing he can do about these LNR reforms and he knows it. So he's trying to put a hammer through the spokes of the new competitions.

Well he is threatening to do so anyway. As I stated previously; they are using the threat of damaging, or destroying, European competition as leverage for personal advantage. The latest Boudjellal comment, if reported correctly, is a reflection on the PRL/LNR dealings within the HEC. So we have the president of the present HEC winning team already threatening this proposed new tournament before it has even started!
Are these the men that should control a European rugby tournament? How long before the next crises once they turn on each other?

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:It's not. I just think we're better off at the negotiating table with the PRL/LNR than trying to keep the ERC alive with the help of Mr Boudjellal.

He's just mouthing off anyway- there's nothing he can do about these LNR reforms and he knows it. So he's trying to put a hammer through the spokes of the new competitions.

Well he is threatening to do so anyway. As I stated previously; they are using the threat of damaging, or destroying, European competition as leverage for personal advantage. The latest Boudjellal comment, if reported correctly, is a reflection on the PRL/LNR dealings within the HEC. So we have the president of the present HEC winning team already threatening this proposed new tournament before it has even started!
Are these the men that should control a European rugby tournament? How long before the next crises once they turn on each other?

hmm, maybe you should come down off the high horse there munchkin. boudjellal is a nutjob. the prl/lnr are legitimately withdrawing from something that wasnt working for them, having given the requisite 2 years notice. what does that have anything to do with boudjellal conducting his not-so-private war with the FFR via the media?

At the launch of this season’s Heineken Cup in Paris, coach of the current holders Toulon, Bernard Laporte, appeared decidedly uneasy and was less than enamoured by the approach of the PRL which he described as “inelegant and inappropriate”.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:It's not. I just think we're better off at the negotiating table with the PRL/LNR than trying to keep the ERC alive with the help of Mr Boudjellal.

He's just mouthing off anyway- there's nothing he can do about these LNR reforms and he knows it. So he's trying to put a hammer through the spokes of the new competitions.

Well he is threatening to do so anyway. As I stated previously; they are using the threat of damaging, or destroying, European competition as leverage for personal advantage. The latest Boudjellal comment, if reported correctly, is a reflection on the PRL/LNR dealings within the HEC. So we have the president of the present HEC winning team already threatening this proposed new tournament before it has even started!
Are these the men that should control a European rugby tournament? How long before the next crises once they turn on each other?

hmm, maybe you should come down off the high horse there munchkin. boudjellal is a nutjob. the prl/lnr are legitimately withdrawing from something that wasnt working for them, having given the requisite 2 years notice. what does that have anything to do with boudjellal conducting his not-so-private war with the FFR via the media?

Touchy much?

It has everything to do with it. It is all about control. It always has been, and that is something that will follow through to any new tournament if the Unions allow it.
We can all see the history of the HEC, and know that once it comes to the end of agreed contracts there are those who will threaten to pull out unless their demands are met. This is of course passed off as negotiations were compromise is the buzz word.
That very same antagonistic self-serving spirit prevalent within the HEC, is now already raising its head in the shadow of this proposed new tournament in the form of conflict within LNR.
Of course any within PRL/LNR who don't conform are 'nut-jobs' when it suits ones view.

Sin é wrote:According to Donal Lenihan in his column:

At the launch of this season’s Heineken Cup in Paris, coach of the current holders Toulon, Bernard Laporte, appeared decidedly uneasy and was less than enamoured by the approach of the PRL which he described as “inelegant and inappropriate”.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:It's not. I just think we're better off at the negotiating table with the PRL/LNR than trying to keep the ERC alive with the help of Mr Boudjellal.

He's just mouthing off anyway- there's nothing he can do about these LNR reforms and he knows it. So he's trying to put a hammer through the spokes of the new competitions.

Well he is threatening to do so anyway. As I stated previously; they are using the threat of damaging, or destroying, European competition as leverage for personal advantage. The latest Boudjellal comment, if reported correctly, is a reflection on the PRL/LNR dealings within the HEC. So we have the president of the present HEC winning team already threatening this proposed new tournament before it has even started!
Are these the men that should control a European rugby tournament? How long before the next crises once they turn on each other?

hmm, maybe you should come down off the high horse there munchkin. boudjellal is a nutjob. the prl/lnr are legitimately withdrawing from something that wasnt working for them, having given the requisite 2 years notice. what does that have anything to do with boudjellal conducting his not-so-private war with the FFR via the media?

Touchy much?

It has everything to do with it. It is all about control. It always has been, and that is something that will follow through to any new tournament if the Unions allow it.
We can all see the history of the HEC, and know that once it comes to the end of agreed contracts there are those who will threaten to pull out unless their demands are met. This is of course passed off as negotiations were compromise is the buzz word.
That very same antagonistic self-serving spirit prevalent within the HEC, is now already raising its head in the shadow of this proposed new tournament in the form of conflict within LNR.
Of course any within PRL/LNR who don't conform are 'nut-jobs' when it suits ones view.

no, he was a nutjob all along.

you dont get it. i'm not touchy, because i think this improves the likelihood of FFR backing LNR. If the LNR can isolate boudjellal, they are much more likely to be able to come to terms with FFR that work for french club and national rugby, and lead to FFR supporting LNR.

why would i be touchy about that? with boudjellal outside the LNR fold its much more likely that LNR and FFR will come to terms. he was always a liability.

you just tried to liken the prl to boudjellal because you're sad about no HC next year. i understand you're upset but that bird wont fly.

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:It's not. I just think we're better off at the negotiating table with the PRL/LNR than trying to keep the ERC alive with the help of Mr Boudjellal.

He's just mouthing off anyway- there's nothing he can do about these LNR reforms and he knows it. So he's trying to put a hammer through the spokes of the new competitions.

Well he is threatening to do so anyway. As I stated previously; they are using the threat of damaging, or destroying, European competition as leverage for personal advantage. The latest Boudjellal comment, if reported correctly, is a reflection on the PRL/LNR dealings within the HEC. So we have the president of the present HEC winning team already threatening this proposed new tournament before it has even started!
Are these the men that should control a European rugby tournament? How long before the next crises once they turn on each other?

mystiroakey wrote:Be careful who you align yourself just to get one up on the english thats all I can say in regards to Toulon!!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Be careful who you align yourself just to get one up on the english thats all I can say in regards to Toulon!!

I'm sure the Celtic League nations will be taking your inestimably excellent advice on board, strokey

VietGwentRevisited wrote:Reports in the Times today that agreement may be close for pan-European competitions for the next 8 seasons including Pro12/AP/T14 teams. (cannot link due to paywall).

It seems that in the last few weeks Ian Ritchie has been hosting a series of private meetings with all relevant parties to try and thrash out a deal. Interestingly PRLs representative in these meetings has been Bruce Craig - Mark McCafferty being sidelined?
Any way it seems that compromises have been reached on qualification methods, division of finances and management of the new competition. It would seem ERC are out, but the clubs will only have a say in the new competition not the full control they demanded. It even suggests we may see BT and SKY operate as joint broadcasters!!

Supposedly this new competition is almost agreed by all the relevant stakeholders (primarily the 6 Unions but also PRL/LNR). It may all be journalistic bluster - but I see no reason why a NewsCorp paper should be peddling this line if they did not believe it. After all until very recently their stories have always been heaping the utmost scorn on PRL/RFU.


So if a deal is struck that gives us a true set of pan-European competitions I can only be really pleased. I do hope that the story is true about the private meetings - as there has been far too much public posturing from people that only serves to antagonise. A public argument is much harder to heal than a private one.

So if true I guess congrats to Ian Ritchie who has kept RFU out of the limelight. Accused of sticking his head in the sands, it would suggest that he has actually been doing something useful away from the glare of the press and internet.

I need a shower now, cannot believe I just said something decent about the RFU.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:Wouldn't be too interested in Toulon helping keep the dying ERC competitions alive.

Whats better from an Irish/Celtic point of view-

a) Toulon help the Heineken Cup survive but continue their wild spending unchecked
b) ERC competitions are dropped, new 20 team competitions start including Celtic sides, the LNR imposes strict financial penalties on teams who rely exclusively on expensive imports.

For me b) may see the status quo change in a way which is not necessarily in our favour, but it will still allow the Irish provinces to be major powers in Europe on and off the field with the right management in both areas.

But without the culture of charismatic super-rich chairmen buying up talent from elsewhere changing in France we may not be able to keep our best players in Ireland. The likes of Boudjellal and their millions are a bigger threat to us than reform of European competitions.

He can sling his hook in conclusion. Most other sides in the competition have some kind of identity with many homegrown players. His side of imported superstars shouldn't be allowed to become the new normal.

Why is choice restricted to either (a) or (b)? What about (a), but with the Unions imposing those same penalties on clubs breaking whatever foreign player cap?

because, if you read boudjellal's statement, the reason he is saying he will join HC is because there are no caps or quotas in the HC.

3. ELIGIBILITY OF PLAYERS

3.1 Each club must nominate a squad of up to 38 players. A minimum of 10 of the players nominated by the club must be capable of playing in front row forward positions. All such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union and available to play for the club from that date.

3.2 A club must nominate a squad of between 19 and 23 players for each match.

3.3 A minimum of six front row players must be included in each match squad such that on the first occasion that a replacement is required in each position, a replacement can be made. Where uncontested scrums are ordered due to the departure of a front row player and there is no suitable replacement, the player whose departure caused the uncontested scrums may not be replaced (i.e. the club will be required to play with 14 players).

3.4 In order to reduce the possibility of uncontested scrums, each club may also nominate further front row players, referred to as 'Emergency Front Row players', who may be registered with ERC on a match-by-match basis provided that all necessary details of the players have been submitted before 12 noon (GMT) on 19 September 2013. The provision for the nomination of Emergency Front Row players is not intended to allow clubs to improve the quality of their squads, and is designed to cater for illness and/or injury in the relevant positions. The players added to squads will typically come from a club's academy or similar.

3.5 Each club may register up to two additional players during the pool stage, each to replace a player previously registered. If a club registers two additional players, one such player must be a front row player. Additional players must have a three-month contract with the club and must not have played for another club in the tournament. Additional player registrations must be submitted by 12 noon (GMT) on the Tuesday before the match. De-registered players may be re-registered (in place of the relevant additional players) during the pool stage.

3.6 Each club involved in the knockout stage may register up to three further players. If a club registers three further players, one such player must be a front row player. Such registrations must be submitted by 12 noon (GMT) on 20 March 2014. The players in question must not have played for another club in the tournament.

3.7 Each club is permitted a maximum of two 'non-European players' in each match squad.

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:According to Donal Lenihan in his column:

At the launch of this season’s Heineken Cup in Paris, coach of the current holders Toulon, Bernard Laporte, appeared decidedly uneasy and was less than enamoured by the approach of the PRL which he described as “inelegant and inappropriate”.

donal lenihan reporting what toulon's coach said about LNR/PRL issues? i dont know what to say. lenihan's colours are already firmly nailed to the mast, and is a director of rugby really the closest he could get to a decision-maker? do you think boudjellal takes advice on ownership from laporte? do you think laporte's former role as french secretary of state for sport may influence his sympathies?

marty2086 wrote:The problem is there are caps in place for foreign players in the ERC they just aren't enforced

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/heinekencup/rules.php#.UmED1lPmojs

Check rule 3.7

quinsforever wrote:What exactly does non-European mean? Birth? Passport? Eligibility? Domicile? Ancestry? No wonder it's flouted if it's not precisely defined.

Munchkin wrote:A 50/50 split I believe is something that PRL/LNR would be delighted with, as it further strengthens club control of Union. PRL/LNR didn't have majority control of votes outside of their respective unions, yet we are were we are now because of the little control they did have, the power to pull clubs out of HEC, they have caused maximum disruption, and the possible destruction of HEC.
I believe to hand that much control over to the clubs is to effectively cede Union control over European rugby in the long term.
Rabo, PRL and LNR do need each other, but the foundations of any European competition must be either Union, or Club. Not a mix of the two otherwise it's a cracked foundation as it's plain to see the divide between the two, and any structure built on such foundation will never be secure.

Scrumpy wrote:Ian Evans says he'll quit the Ospreys if there is no HC for thenm to play in, so it's clear he doesn't value the Rabo as a meaningful league.

I think the WRU need to back their regions to join the new competition asap.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:What exactly does non-European mean? Birth? Passport? Eligibility? Domicile? Ancestry? No wonder it's flouted if it's not precisely defined.

Me.

I'm not European.  I'm an Irish citizen living on the continent of Europe.  A Canadian isn't an American.  Neither is a Mexican.  They live on the American continent but the name doesn't define them.

Scrumpy wrote:Ian Evans says he'll quit the Ospreys if there is no HC for thenm to play in, so it's clear he doesn't value the Rabo as a meaningful league.

I think the WRU need to back their regions to join the new competition asap.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:What exactly does non-European mean? Birth? Passport? Eligibility? Domicile? Ancestry? No wonder it's flouted if it's not precisely defined.

Me.

I'm not European.  I'm an Irish citizen living on the continent of Europe.  A Canadian isn't an American.  Neither is a Mexican.  They live on the American continent but the name doesn't define them.

maybe they could have different degrees of european-ness. i think i'm hardly european (lets call that 25%).maybe there could be a standardised test where you have to get a few of the capitals of europe correct and current prime ministers or presidents, be able to say a few token words in at least two european language, and correctly identify whether stella artois is french or belgian?

mystiroakey wrote:Stella artois is 100% belgium and i have been to the brewery in leuven!!

Scrumpy wrote:Thats what he said,

without HC rugby then he'll leave as he still wants to play International rugby and the Rabo doesn't offer the level of competiton that the HC does, which he sees as only a slight step down from International rugby.

quinsforever wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Stella artois is 100% belgium and i have been to the brewery in leuven!!

you have proven your european-ness fully grasshopper.