Top 10 most Naturally "Gifted" fighters I've seen in my lifetime !!

First topic message reminder :

These are the most talented fighters |I've seen first hand in my lifetime.........Some went on to be greater than others because maybe application, bad luck or just plain stupidity cost them...........But here it and it's completely subjective..

I caught the tail end of some careers like Benitez........Duran etc...........Manny makes the best of what he has got.......and is a huge overrachiever..

1. Tommy Hearns
2. Roy Jones jr
3. Ray Leonard
3. Floyd Mayweather
5. Pernell Whittaker
6. Michael Nunn
7. Naseem Hamed
8. Hector Camacho
9. Michael Spinks
10. Don Curry............

Nico the gman wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

Lance wrote:Eubank was naturally gifted. not saying he would make top 10, but probably top 10 British...in my lifetime anyway. Extremely arrogant and rarely took any advice. I remember him shocking Lewis with how unorthodox and untrained he seemed to be. Fought on instinct alone, and with very poor fitness

Said he would never fight Herol Graham after been given a boxing lesson in sparring,Eubank said he couldn't lay a glove on Graham.

The Eubank graham story I heard was that he sparred with him and couldn't lay a glove on him for 2 weeks... And then starched him in their last session. At least that's how chris tells it I think.. Whilst admitting it was a frustrating enough experience to know he didnt want to fight him for money.

Never heard that one I know Eubank wouldn't fight him though straight from the horses mouth.

Yeh Eubank admits it nico, but the story about the sparring was spread by hamed at every opportunity. Eubank gave his version on ringside recently, where his and Johnny nelson's dislike of naz was clear for all to see... The picture of a teenage naz looking starstruck at a eubank fight was priceless.

milkyboy wrote:Re manny steward on his fighters. He is on record as saying that McClellan was the most physically gifted fighter he trained. He had such a bond with tommy that both McClellan and mccallum felt sidelined and left... One of the reasons mccallum wanted a hearns fight, the other being he felt he could beat him.

He is on record as well.........as being sacked by Hearns and Byrd taking over........While Mclellan was still making it..

Worth noting that point..not to say Steward wasn't being honest..

But most Trainers say their new charge is the best etc,,

Is Mayweather naturally gifted? Genuine question. It just seems to me that since X years old he's been being trained by two guys who have fought at world level, and is also a notorious gym-rat. I'd put that more down to environment and application rather than natural talent.

Rowley wrote:Johnny Nelson tells the story of the Eubank Graham sparring in his biography. Says Chris was there about a week and in the first few days could not get close to him but he stuck at it and started to work him out as the week progressed and by the end of the week he was holding his own and did put Herol over at some point. Says though the idea that Graham stood him on his head throughout is basically nonsense.

Not so according to Eubank -- says he didn't get near him in two weeks. Graham, apparently, humiliated him.

True enough about changing tunes truss. His comments on the gman though we're retrospective. He admits making mistakes with his matchmaking for him, early on, and the lack if time he could dedicate to him. I think his comments on his physical abilities, were tempered by his view that McClellan was headstrong and not the easiest of charges. Ie physical gifts but not mental ones.

He beat jones as an amateur, and had more to his game than just being the slugger he showed us as a pro

What I will say is that Hearns had everything that Mclellan had at 168 at 147.......

Mclellan didn't have the lance of a jab which everything flowed off or Benn would never have got inside so easily..

I'm happy for others to disagree..........even Bob Mee.

milkyboy wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

Lance wrote:Eubank was naturally gifted. not saying he would make top 10, but probably top 10 British...in my lifetime anyway. Extremely arrogant and rarely took any advice. I remember him shocking Lewis with how unorthodox and untrained he seemed to be. Fought on instinct alone, and with very poor fitness

Said he would never fight Herol Graham after been given a boxing lesson in sparring,Eubank said he couldn't lay a glove on Graham.

The Eubank graham story I heard was that he sparred with him and couldn't lay a glove on him for 2 weeks... And then starched him in their last session. At least that's how chris tells it I think.. Whilst admitting it was a frustrating enough experience to know he didnt want to fight him for money.

Never heard that one I know Eubank wouldn't fight him though straight from the horses mouth.

Yeh Eubank admits it nico, but the story about the sparring was spread by hamed at every opportunity. Eubank gave his version on ringside recently, where his and Johnny nelson's dislike of naz was clear for all to see... The picture of a teenage naz looking starstruck at a eubank fight was priceless.

Just read on Boxing News 24,Eubank said it took him a month and a half to work Graham out,but he said he dropped Graham in the 1st round of a 8 round sparring session,Graham got up and outboxed him for 4and a half rounds,he then put Graham down who got up and outboxed him again for the last 2 and a half rounds,so you were right about the knockdown.Eubank called Graham a defensive genius.If Nelson and Eubank dislike Hamed then they're good judges,horrible little git with a chip on both shoulders.

More detail than I'd heard nico, but given the two fighters it sounds entirely plausible. Though you always have to be circumspect with sparring stories, I think the fact that chris states 'how can you fight what you can't hit' on the subject of graham lends this some credence.. It's not like he's claiming to have owned him, like they usually do.

Something obviously happened between nelson and hamed... Might be in his book rowley?... Whichever it's clear he thinks hamed did something that he considered unforgivable.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What I will say is that Hearns had everything that Mclellan had at 168 at 147.......

Mclellan didn't have the lance of a jab which everything flowed off or Benn would never have got inside so easily..

I'm happy for others to disagree..........even Bob Mee.

Don't necessarily disagree truss... Just relaying what steward thought about McClellan

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Steward said a lot of things............Like Hilmer Kenty was one of the most talented  lightweights of alltime...

You don't have natural power through hard work........You don't stand 6ft 2 at 147 without freak genetics and you don't just learn to have the greatest jab in boxing history......and one of the best rights..

Now I know you base everything on what someone else says..

me I'll stick with commonsense

From The Guardian:

"When Hearns walked into the Kronk in a run-down part of Detroit as the skinniest 14-year-old Steward had ever seen, they clicked immediately but Hearns, the first boxer to win five world titles at different weights, was no great puncher until Steward turned him into the original "Hitman"."

Steward himself:

"That," Steward said, "was when I knew I had something out of the ordinary. Thomas is not the most talented fighter I've ever worked with, but he's definitely the most special. The bigger the fight, the better he'd do. He always seemed to rise to the occasion."

Hearns couldn't pop a balloon until Steward taught him how to punch.

Please don't quoting me articles or historians or trainers......

d4 stuff...........

Means F**k all

You feel that Steward - the man who trained Hearns - has an opinion that means nothing next to your own?

Wow.

Next time you throw in a meaningless quote.....Throw in a meaningless list as well......

There is an article on Sweet science.com saying Paul Williams is the most amazing natural talent since Tommy Hearns

Whoopie doo.......I'm going to have an orgasm..

To be fair haz, everyone has to be taught. And anyone who's seen Pryor hearns in the amateurs when tommy was a teenage lightweight can only imagine what he looked like at 14!

Milky he's d4 in disguise........

He doesn't argue just chucks articles and lists at you........

Azania was moaning d4 was banned........well he's got the next best thing.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Next time you throw in a meaningless quote.....Throw in a meaningless list as well......

There is an article on Sweet science.com  saying Paul Williams is the most amazing natural talent since Tommy Hearns

Whoopie doo.......I'm going to have an orgasm..

Are you looking at a picture of Floyd?

I'll bet anything you like you've misinterpreted it - I imagine it's most physically gifted considering their height and reach and not naturally talented.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Milky he's d4 in disguise........

He doesn't argue just chucks articles and lists at you........

Azania was moaning d4 was banned........well he's got the next best thing.

What is the point in arguing without citing facts or credible sources? Otherwise it's just who shouts loudest (or in your case who can be most abusive).

Remember when windy chucked d4 off........He'd ask a question and get a stupid list or quote from some Tosspot chucked at him.....

Best thing Windy ever did on here...

milkyboy wrote:To be fair haz, everyone has to be taught. And anyone who's seen Pryor hearns in the amateurs when tommy was a teenage lightweight can only imagine what he looked like at 14!

Isn't this post about natural talent? By all accounts - from men who were actually there -- Hearns wasn't one of those. I point that out and bully boy throws his dolls out.

Are we all just supposed to agree with his gibberish?

Steward would know better than anyone how naturally talented Hearns was. Ridiculous.

The d4 golden rules debating
----------------------------

1. If everybody agrees with me mention the consensus of opinion on 606

2. If I'm being trashed throw in an article..........

3. If that doesn't work chuck in a Mongolian journalists list.......

4. Say......"Needs to grow a pair" A hundred times...

5. Say "Well he's an expert so everybody on here know sack all......."

Give haz credit he ignores number 4......... 

Oooh careful now - we aren't allowed to quote people or cite evidence.

catchweight wrote:Steward would know better than anyone how naturally talented Hearns was. Ridiculous.

Steward was sacked.........He may have an agenda..

Guys I don't mind anybody disagreeing.......But have your own opinion FFs.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The d4 golden rules debating
----------------------------

1. If everybody agrees with me mention the consensus of opinion on 606

2. If I'm being trashed throw in an article..........

3. If that doesn't work chuck in a Mongolian journalists list.......

4. Say......"Needs to grow a pair" A hundred times...

5. Say "Well he's an expert so everybody on here know sack all......."

Give haz credit he ignores number 4......... 

The Trussman rules:

1. Throw out a list that mentions my favourite fighters (must include Mayweather, Curry or Oscar). If you can surreptitiously dog other fighters (such as Louis, Duran) to elevate your own men (Ali, Leonard) then all the better. Don't use facts, though, just spin things whichever way suits.

2. Tell anyone who disagrees to run along or leave the thread.

3. Don't consider anyone else's opinion (or if you HAVE to do it in a condescending manner. Say something like ""You're entitled to your opinion". But don't actually mean it).

4. If all else fails be abusive (and lots of smileys - they always help).

Here is Johnny Nelson's take on the Eubank Graham sparring session direct from his book. Took me ages to find this, books should be made to have an index by law:

"Herol bamboozled Chris for several days much to the frustration of Barney Eastwood who started yelling instructions from ringside. At one point Chris stopped sparring in mid round, walked to the ropes and said to Eastwood "I am the fighter, you are the promoter. I know my job"

He soon proved he did indeed know his job. He'd studied Herol's style and finally fathomed it. He produced a thunderous punch that laid him out cold. There was an audible gasp in the gym. This wasn't supposed to happen to Herol. Brendan quickly got him up; let them spar on for about a minute as though nothing had happened then intervened. Herol was clearly shaken and said to me, "Did I get knocked out in there?"

Sorry but when the man who worked with and trained Hearns into the fighter he was has an opinion its pretty retarded not to listen. I can imagine you going to the doctor and then disagreeing with his diagnosis. After all, what does he know?

Nico the gman wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

Lance wrote:Eubank was naturally gifted. not saying he would make top 10, but probably top 10 British...in my lifetime anyway. Extremely arrogant and rarely took any advice. I remember him shocking Lewis with how unorthodox and untrained he seemed to be. Fought on instinct alone, and with very poor fitness

Said he would never fight Herol Graham after been given a boxing lesson in sparring,Eubank said he couldn't lay a glove on Graham.

The Eubank graham story I heard was that he sparred with him and couldn't lay a glove on him for 2 weeks... And then starched him in their last session. At least that's how chris tells it I think.. Whilst admitting it was a frustrating enough experience to know he didnt want to fight him for money.

Never heard that one I know Eubank wouldn't fight him though straight from the horses mouth.

Yeh Eubank admits it nico, but the story about the sparring was spread by hamed at every opportunity. Eubank gave his version on ringside recently, where his and Johnny nelson's dislike of naz was clear for all to see... The picture of a teenage naz looking starstruck at a eubank fight was priceless.

Just read on Boxing News 24,Eubank said it took him a month and a half to work Graham out,but he said he dropped Graham in the 1st round of a 8 round sparring session,Graham got up and outboxed him for 4and a half rounds,he then put Graham down who got up and outboxed him again for the last 2 and a half rounds,so you were right about the knockdown.Eubank called Graham a defensive genius.If Nelson and Eubank dislike Hamed then they're good judges,horrible little git with a chip on both shoulders.

Eubank does talk nonsense at times though. some days hes extremely arrogant, and nobody could have beaten him. other days everybody was much better than him and he was scared to fight any of the names. he cant quite get the line between being confident and modest. gives people the room to pick and chose whatever they want to think of him. its often noted that he said he couldn't beat Toney. but hes said other times he could

Rowley wrote:Here is Johnny Nelson's take on the Eubank Graham sparring session direct from his book. Took me ages to find this, books should be made to have an index by law:

"Herol bamboozled Chris for several days much to the frustration of Barney Eastwood who started yelling instructions from ringside. At one point Chris stopped sparring in mid round, walked to the ropes and said to Eastwood "I am the fighter, you are the promoter. I know my job"

He soon proved he did indeed know his job. He'd studied Herol's style and finally fathomed it. He produced a thunderous punch that laid him out cold. There was an audible gasp in the gym. This wasn't supposed to happen to Herol. Brendan quickly got him up; let them spar on for about a minute as though nothing had happened then intervened. Herol was clearly shaken and said to me, "Did I get knocked out in there?"

Yeah - just found a vid where Herol admits it but says he then battered Eubank. I've read somewhere that the rest of the gym stopped watching as it was too humiliating.

Eubank had a talent for finding the moneyshot and it would be no different with Herol - if the fighter can be knocked out and Eubank can be bothered he will probably do it.

Hold on Rowley: are you quoting facts? Tsk tsk.

He's quoting opinion.........You fail to make the distinction......regularly

Nevertheless I apologise for some of my remarks.........I was out of order...

will state though that lists and opinions can be subjective as well as objective

It's not opinion if someone was actually there.

Witnesses aren't always reliable........Three judges can't agree on a fight regularly......

Nelson is from Yorkshire too.........and a former Ingle client.

Have to say though Graham vs Eubank would have been the king of all stinkers wouldn't it ??

ShahenshahG wrote:Eubank had a talent for finding the moneyshot and it would be no different with Herol - if the fighter can be knocked out and Eubank can be bothered he will probably do it.

Graham would have boxed his head off clear UD for me,prime McCallum only beat Bomber on a SD and that after a point deduction against Graham.

Kalambay outpointed Mccallum.......

Have to factor in Gman that Graham screwed up his biggest nights........

and I think screwed is the right word.........Should have beat Mccallum......Should have beat Kalambay..and Jackson was plain shocking...Amateur night that..

milkyboy wrote:More detail than I'd heard nico, but given the two fighters it sounds entirely plausible. Though you always have to be circumspect with sparring stories, I think the fact that chris states 'how can you fight what you can't hit' on the subject of graham lends this some credence.. It's not like he's claiming to have owned him, like they usually do.

Something obviously happened between nelson and hamed... Might be in his book rowley?... Whichever it's clear he thinks hamed did something that he considered unforgivable.

Read Calzaghes book even the mild mannered likeable Carl Thompson threatened to chin Hamed,as Junior Whitter said the Ingle camp was alway's in great spirit till Hamed walked in and the mood changed.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Kalambay outpointed Mccallum.......

Have to factor in Gman that Graham screwed up his biggest nights........

and I think screwed is the right word.........Should have beat Mccallum......Should have beat Kalambay..and Jackson was plain shocking...Amateur night that..

Yep the Jackson fight why he didn't stick to the gameplan I'll never know,for me one of the most talented fighters never to win a world crown but there we go.

Judging by his fight performances I'd back Eubank to beat Graham more often than not. Having talent is one thing but making the most of it in the heat of battle is another thing. Eubank before the second Watson fight knew how to win whereas Graham didn't.

Have to agree with Hammer.....his big fight record was shocking.

Guess the debate in this thread just shows how hard it is to define exactly what 'natural' talent or ability is, really.

I guess in my own head I kind of link it to fighters who just have that little bit extra about them which can't be taught, hence why it's a term you often see associated with fighters who have / had exceptional gifts which you're either born with or you're not; speed, great reflexes etc.

Appreciate that I'll probably get charges of bias thrown at me, but using that kind of thinking I'd say that someone like Pernell was a much more 'naturally gifted' boxer than Hearns. Look at it this way - nine times out of ten when Pea entered the ring, he was the naturally smaller man (or at least had no natural size advantage, be it in weight or height / reach), probably the physically less imposing man and, of course, he was almost always the lesser puncher of the two fighters. But he had the speed, boxing brain and reflexes to make those disadvantages count for little.

Hearns had those his share of natural gifts, too, but at the same time his huge frame and punching power gave him a few advantages which meant he didn't always have to make sure he was covering every single base like a Pea, a Floyd (above 140, anyway), a Benitez, a Pep etc. Hearns was more of a textbook boxer than those fellas whereas they all had that almost supernatural kind of edge about them.

But as I said, everyone has their own definition of what natural gifts / ability are.

Agree with most of the above... Certainly graham was a talent worthy of consideration in trussy's list.

However, to this day I've never quite been able to decide whether graham just choked on the big occasion, or whether his was a style that bamboozled all but the very best. He didn't look himself against kalambay or mccallum (though arguably still could/should have won both) but maybe it's no coincidence that they were the two best fighters he fought and they made him look off colour.

Jackson was just lack of concentration going for the stoppage... Though I feel he deserved to lose the fight as his shorts were a crime against fashion.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Judging by his fight performances I'd back Eubank to beat Graham more often than not. Having talent is one thing but making the most of it in the heat of battle is another thing. Eubank before the second Watson fight knew how to win whereas Graham didn't.

We'll agree to disagree mater of opinion.