Turkish Open prediction

No, I’m not predicting the winner, nor if "it'll only be Poulter and Tiger". But I do want to predict the headline on the European Tour website after Round 4:
"Turkish Delight for [insert winner]".         

16 players within 4 shots and low rounds seem to be out there. Time will tell whether Tiger is still "fresh" come Sunday - after hitting balls across the Bosporus earlier this week and whining about his schedule... Personally I'd love to see IJP make fried poultry out of him coming down the stretch , although I wouldn't mind Stenson having the last kebab either.

"Nine Chins gets Life Sentence in Turkish Prison"

Might not happen, but it's a headline I would like to see.

A fine Friday fromTiger -- now let's see if it plays into the weekend.

i think the ET running a headline referring to Woods as "nine chins" is as unlikely as him getting a life sentence in a Turkish prison!

"Woods uses Turkish Airlines Open appearance fee to get chino-suction."

I heard ge got $2.4M !!!!

So a multi-millionaire gets $2.4M just to show up to his job??!! obscene

Good to see Harrington is starting to pick up his form, shame it is at the end of the season tbh

and terrible to see Lowry propping up the field, isn't it sirbenson?

He is consistently inconsistent! He had a real chance with the BMW and this to get good ranking points and get closer to the top 50!

The European tour are having a laugh with Harrington's score, constant changes, giving Harrington fans false hope

nice little round from Jacquelin today. hard to look past nine chins tomorrow though         

incontinentia wrote:So a multi-millionaire gets $2.4M just to show up to his job??!!  obscene

Quite. Appearance fees in pro golf are pathetic and they aren't discussed enough. Certainly should be publicised a lot more widely.

I wonder is it Turkish airlines that are paying it? I see the ministry of culture and tourism are involved, I'm sure the Turkish people would be none too pleased if their tax money was being used to line Woods' pockets.

anyway, my headline prediction is: "Woods sharts gold after Turkey trots".

...although he's having quite a bogeyous back nine today:doh: 

My guess ... add up the gate, TV revenue and merchandise and this a good investment in the brand that is Tiger. But never any way to be sure since you can't run the same tournament, same year, without him and compare.

Ace from Donaldson and bogey from Dubuisson and now they're tied for the lead!!!

Donaldson's doing nicely with these holes in one - didn't he make one at The Masters?

Dubuisson has a history of fading so still wide open.

Is the Independent Contractor too far back?

Come on Poulter!

Incredible finish to the tournament!!! Rose very rarely has a bad week, does he?

the Contractor isn't out of it just yet, 2 off the lead with a few holes left.

No fading for Dubuisson yet - to the Victor go the spoils?

Isn't Dubuisson a former world no1 amateur?

puligny wrote:Isn't Dubuisson a former world no1 amateur?

Yes, 2009 champ. (acc. to Wikipedia)

On another note: The Contractor hangs up his clubs for four weeks -- to be "fresh" for the World Challenge I guess. After all it's his own tournament, with free money and free OWGR points. Apparently it's exhausting playing Rory in a multi million dollar TV event in China and then two weeks later pick up $2.4M for not flying Turkish Airlines.

As much as we can complain that the contractor picked up $2.4M for turning up, who else would have made the TV news and all the papers for hitting a golf ball from Asia to Europe? Maybe Rory but there is no way that the BBC would have shown someone like Rose or Poulter doing it.

So just in free publicity I would guess that they got their money's worth. And as for the tax dollars paying for it, one of the main reasons that they are throwing so much money at this is to show the tourist world that Turkey is a golfing holiday venue so its in everyone's interest.

Although I do agree that it seems wrong.

According to Alistar Tate... the Turkish Govt. didn't pay TW's appearance fee... it was paid directly out of the pocket of Ahmet Agaoglu, who is also president of the Turkish Golf Federation. (and has TW committed for another 2 years)

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/nov/10/european-tour-turkish-open-5-things-tiger-woods/?print

= = = =

BUT that said... in at least an indirect way... there was Govt. support of the tournament.  Turkish airlines is reportedly still 49% Govt. owned and I'm guessing a good part of the infrastructure, security and other costs associated with a high profile event of this magnitude could have been picked up by the Govt. as well.  

= = = =

As for Appearance Fees in general... I have a big problem with them for numerous reasons I've outlined before (which I believe HURTS the Euro Tour)..   But my issue is with the system that allows them, not the players that accept them.  Hey... if a guy gets to the point somebody thinks he's worth $3 million... then he IS worth $3 million.   I say any of them that can... SHOULD take the money and don't look back, nor give a second thought to what some envious golf fans might think.

And by the way... the PGA Tour is not clean in this matter either...  there are several ways "backdoor" appearance fees are starting to promulgate at a much faster pace than we've seen before.... personal service contracts... ambassador programs to line up "stables" of players.... etc...

I'll bet super is wondering what his disappearance fee is.

You not suggesting I could pay one of your incenduary planting, patella cleaving pals to make him conveniently vanish are you?

So incon is also an independent contractor????

robopz wrote:...As for Appearance Fees in general... I have a big problem with them for numerous reasons I've outlined before (which I believe HURTS the Euro Tour)..   But my issue is with the system that allows them, not the players that accept them.  Hey... if a guy gets to the point somebody thinks he's worth $3 million... then he IS worth $3 million.   I say any of them that can... SHOULD take the money and don't look back, nor give a second thought to what some envious golf fans might think.

And by the way... the PGA Tour is not clean in this matter either...  there are several ways "backdoor" appearance fees are starting to promulgate at a much faster pace than we've seen before.... personal service contracts... ambassador programs to line up "stables" of players.... etc...

Can't fault the logic there - if you're a player and you're offered such largesse, I'm sure it would be very, very few who'd turn it down. I'm not sure what the answer would be but there seems to be something fundamentally wrong the sport when certain players are getting floods of cash just for turning up.

he will be over to Ireland in 18 months for the jp mcmanus pro-am. i will pm you my rates and a payment plan. be sure to read the fine print!

navyblueshorts wrote: I'm not sure what the answer would be but there seems to be something fundamentally wrong the sport when certain players are getting floods of cash just for turning up.

I wouldn't know the answer either... but if Ahmet Agaoglu is to be believed... sometimes what seems like exorbitant fees are worth it.   I don't know about that... but I would have to believe TW participating in the event in Turkey brought a lot more attention to the region as a potential golf destination...   Especially if you Google Map it and realize they have so many courses compacted in that one area... with some pretty darn incredible resorts as well.  

Robo - Exactly. Tiger Woods is obviously "worth it" to the person who mattered most ... the one who writes out the check!

Can't help think whether some of the hopeless Turks in the field were somewhat related to Ahmet Agaoglu...

Shotrock wrote:Robo - Exactly. Tiger Woods is obviously "worth it" to the person who mattered most ... the one who writes out the check!

Maybe, if you think a model that gives a sportsperson money for simply turning up to an event is a good thing. I don't think it's a healthy state of affairs really but I'm not sure what an answer might be! Think Volvo once, as headline Euro sponsor, tried to get rid of it by upping prize funds to compensate but (surprise! surprise!) the players weren't having any of it. Pretty sad really.

Often think this and football wages are the ultimate in capitalism. You are paid what the market dictates - no more no less. Makes me howl with laughter when people moan how much footballers get paid. Don't watch the gormless feckers then!

Went to a match the other day, dreadful standard.

navyblueshorts wrote:Maybe, if you think a model that gives a sportsperson money for simply turning up to an event is a good thing. I don't think it's a healthy state of affairs really but I'm not sure what an answer might be! Think Volvo once, as headline Euro sponsor, tried to get rid of it by upping prize funds to compensate but (surprise! surprise!) the players weren't having any of it. Pretty sad really.

And that's one of my main issues with appearance fees.  I'm not familiar with the Volvo situation, but one tournament can't decide to do something about it on their own... it has to be a Tour wide no-fees policy or it won't work.

But again... I do believe in probably most cases the fees are worth it to those paying them or they wouldn't keep doing it. But the damage is done to the events that can't compete with fees of their own.

robopz wrote:According to Alistar Tate... the Turkish Govt. didn't pay TW's appearance fee... it was paid directly out of the pocket of Ahmet Agaoglu, who is also president of the Turkish Golf Federation. (and has TW committed for another 2 years)

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/nov/10/european-tour-turkish-open-5-things-tiger-woods/?print

= = = =

BUT that said... in at least an indirect way... there was Govt. support of the tournament.  Turkish airlines is reportedly still 49% Govt. owned and I'm guessing a good part of the infrastructure, security and other costs associated with a high profile event of this magnitude could have been picked up by the Govt. as well.  

= = = =

As for Appearance Fees in general... I have a big problem with them for numerous reasons I've outlined before (which I believe HURTS the Euro Tour)..   But my issue is with the system that allows them, not the players that accept them.  Hey... if a guy gets to the point somebody thinks he's worth $3 million... then he IS worth $3 million.   I say any of them that can... SHOULD take the money and don't look back, nor give a second thought to what some envious golf fans might think.

The wider problem with all these escalating prize funds and appearance money and ambassador programs is that golf, and golf in Europe in particular, just can't afford it. I think European golf is rapidly headed towards the football model which only works because there are a few very wealthy people who want to massage their egos by owning a football club, or in this case, a golf tournament. It only takes a company like Sky to pull the plug and the whole lot is going to come crashing down. Until then, some tournaments are sustained only by quasi government sponsorship - like the Turkish Open, and some by commercial sponsorship - like the BMW. It seems perverse and utterly wrong to me that there are so few tournaments in the UK these days, where there is real interest and good crowds, and yet so many in places like Russia, China, Africa and the Middle East where there are fewer people watching than you see in your average club monthly medal.

I know people will start banging on about "growing the game" and "exploiting new markets", and that's fair enough. I'm pretty sure that the best way to get kids into golf is to teach them at school, rather than hoping their parents will show up to a golf tournament that they don't understand and aren't interested in, and then on the strength of that, (hopefully) encourage their kids to play.

I lost interest in pro golf years ago, and I never watch it now, save for the Masters, Open and Ryder Cup. I couldn't care less who wins and loses, but I do recognise that a strong pro tour in Europe is essential to inspire young kids coming into the game. There are too many American robotic clones who just aren't going to inspire anybody - let a lone a young Spanish or French or German kid, so a European tour is essential. If the players aren't careful, they'll kill the golden goose.

We are all to blame by subscribing to TV networks that then line the pockets of professional sports people.

George1507 wrote:The wider problem with all these escalating prize funds and appearance money and ambassador programs is that golf, and golf in Europe in particular, just can't afford it. I think European golf is rapidly headed towards the football model which only works because there are a few very wealthy people who want to massage their egos by owning a football club, or in this case, a golf tournament. It only takes a company like Sky to pull the plug and the whole lot is going to come crashing down. Until then, some tournaments are sustained only by quasi government sponsorship - like the Turkish Open, and some by commercial sponsorship - like the BMW. It seems perverse and utterly wrong to me that there are so few tournaments in the UK these days, where there is real interest and good crowds, and yet so many in places like Russia, China, Africa and the Middle East where there are fewer people watching than you see in your average club monthly medal.

I know people will start banging on about "growing the game" and "exploiting new markets", and that's fair enough. I'm pretty sure that the best way to get kids into golf is to teach them at school, rather than hoping their parents will show up to a golf tournament that they don't understand and aren't interested in, and then on the strength of that, (hopefully) encourage their kids to play.

I lost interest in pro golf years ago, and I never watch it now, save for the Masters, Open and Ryder Cup. I couldn't care less who wins and loses, but I do recognise that a strong pro tour in Europe is essential to inspire young kids coming into the game. There are too many American robotic clones who just aren't going to inspire anybody - let a lone a young Spanish or French or German kid, so a European tour is essential. If the players aren't careful, they'll kill the golden goose.

Good post. Re. the last bit though - what would they care? They're minted. I see/hear nothing currently which suggests any of the top players care about anything except their own bank balances.

George1507 wrote:The wider problem with all these escalating prize funds and appearance money and ambassador programs is that golf, and golf in Europe in particular, just can't afford it. I think European golf is rapidly headed towards the football model which only works because there are a few very wealthy people who want to massage their egos by owning a football club, or in this case, a golf tournament. It only takes a company like Sky to pull the plug and the whole lot is going to come crashing down. Until then, some tournaments are sustained only by quasi government sponsorship - like the Turkish Open, and some by commercial sponsorship - like the BMW. It seems perverse and utterly wrong to me that there are so few tournaments in the UK these days, where there is real interest and good crowds, and yet so many in places like Russia, China, Africa and the Middle East where there are fewer people watching than you see in your average club monthly medal.

Two thoughts... First, golf is profitable for the networks and that's why they pay rights fees and put it on their air. But no doubt the value to the networks can ebb and flow with the ratings. But from all I've seen of ratings in both the U.S. and in Europe, the networks are a long long way from the point where it no longer makes financial sense to broadcast golf. And as for European events. I agree, but IMO it's simply the result of an "economic pendulum" that has (hopefully temporarily) swung to the disfavor or events in Europe or the UK proper.

George1507 wrote:I know people will start banging on about "growing the game" and "exploiting new markets", and that's fair enough. I'm pretty sure that the best way to get kids into golf is to teach them at school, rather than hoping their parents will show up to a golf tournament that they don't understand and aren't interested in, and then on the strength of that, (hopefully) encourage their kids to play.

IMO the Euro Tour replacing lost events in Euro proper with expansion to Asia, or the Middle East or wherever, is a totally legitimate response until the greater Euro economy shows more of a recovery. And I agree with you that growth of the game must rely on more than just a professional circuit. But I think it does... there are lots of initiatives world wide to get young people interested. Obviously with mixed results due to the cost and time barriers the game often presents, but the efforts are there. And IMO, getting golf in the Olympics will help spur governments in countries that haven't been big in golf in the past to engage.

George1507 wrote:I lost interest in pro golf years ago, and I never watch it now, save for the Masters, Open and Ryder Cup. I couldn't care less who wins and loses, but I do recognise that a strong pro tour in Europe is essential to inspire young kids coming into the game. There are too many American robotic clones who just aren't going to inspire anybody - let a lone a young Spanish or French or German kid, so a European tour is essential. If the players aren't careful, they'll kill the golden goose.

I agree with the "robotic clones" point of view, but would have to disagree that's an apt description for many of the games players. Tiger, Phil, Rory, Ian, Bubba, Boo, Woody, Sergio, Rickie.... can hardly be described as "robots". IMO there's more "character" out there than you give credit. Granted there's plenty of Webb's or Zach's that hardly inspire interest from their personalities alone... but for many golf fans the quality of their play often inspires. And as for a European Tour being essential... I agree... but as I used the "pendulum" analogy above... pendulums swing BOTH ways. When the economics move back in the direction of favoring Europe... IMO the sponsors and the health of the pro game will flourish once again.

Haven't seen anyone explain yet why tennis thrives in Europe and golf struggles.

Similarly other sports 'ave never 'ad it so good, but golf is in decline.

Admittedly part of the problem is "Spain" and their economy, but tennis and footie still have great support there. And: The days of Sergio, Miguel and Gonzo pushing the tournament boat out have also apparently gone by the wayside.

The one common thread, to me anyway, is the governance of the European Tour - in any other business O'Grady's track record would have seen him out the door years ago. And what's he done with all those Ryder Cup profits???????????????

Ironic that so much of European Tour "qualifying" is in Espana yet they can't stage more than one decent Tour event.

Something's not right and I can't ever see expansion into the Far East ever being the solution.

navyblueshorts wrote:...what would they care? They're minted. I see/hear nothing currently which suggests any of the top players care about anything except their own bank balances.

Not sure I agree with that. What I see is LOTS and LOTS of players taking an interest in development of the game in their own ways. Many through charities, or foundations of their own, or participation in programs of others to grow golf.

But I dunno... perhaps we expect too much of the players in the "growth of the game" regard. Beyond their personal efforts... what should they be doing that they're not doing already? It seems to me their primary way top players in the prime of their careers can grow the game is to play the best they can and provide the entertainment and thus hopefully inspiration to those who might be interested in golf.

Kwini, not being up on it... I couldn't opine to any specifics on the quality (or lack thereof) of O'Grady's leadership.  But in a larger sense...  I'll admit I can't remember seeing much of anything proactive from Wentworth in forwarding the interests of the European Tour in a long, long time.  Instead it's been mostly reactive trying to scramble to replace lost events/sponsors... or attempts at mimicking PGA Tour programs (FE Cup vs R2D for instance).    But strictly from an uninformed outsider looking in... O'Grady's tenure (at least in the last 5-6 years) does seem to be much more "Bivins-ish" than "Whan-ish" if you get my drift.

One other thing that hasn't been said anywhere on here, a PGA Tour tournament, even web.commers or Champions events, is a big deal in most of the US communities the Tour visits.
It's not just golf fans who get involved, it's a massive Civic event, loaded with community pride.
From 3,000 miles away I don't see any of that in Europe.
 
If I was hiring a European Tour leader I'd have them do an internship in Hartford, Connecticut, get them steeped in everything they do to ensure their "Open", currently The Travelers, is a New England success. Sure places like the Quad Cities, Boise, Endicott, Dallas etc, etc, are exactly the same.
 
Doesn't always work (see Milwaukee), but that's how the Tour started, built and nurtured from the bottom up, rather than top down, tho' not always convinced Commish Finch'em completely gets that.
 
Having said all of which, I see in the pgatour.com's fine print that the Champions Tour oldest/founding event may be toast, an apparently irrevocable decision having been made to terminate its relationship with the Savannah area and no replacement in sight. Would have been much better off to have stayed in Austin where the whole thing (Liberty Mutual Legends) started 35 yrs ago.


PS: robo, I get your drift exactly.
Trying to do to many top-down fixes instead of being committed to grass-roots growth - see above!!

Kwini... I think you hit a strong chord regarding community involvement in Tour events in the USA.  Most are like your Hartford example... including here in Houston, where not only do we have the strong volunteerism from the golf community, but we also have the efforts of maybe 50 different non-golf related charities who benefit from the charitable contributions generated by the event.  

It would be a lot harder to pull off today... but there was a time here in Houston in the late 80's, early 90's when the Houston Open was struggling to find/hold sponsors... and not for the "local help" (directly financial and "in kind") by all those supporters... the event might not have survived... or at least not in the way we know it today.

Not knowing the economics of Euro Tour events... if similar is NOT happening... the American "charity/community" model sure would seem like something worth exploring.

robo,
Would say ALL the Texas events exemplify that - San Antonio seems to be the annual leader in charitable giving and when I lived in Dallas I couldn't believe the Salesmanship Club of Dallas's organization to ensure the BN was a success.

(Finchem missed a trick by marginalising the Conquistadors in Tucson, another community event that is now apparently anything but.)

Great for Houston, ironic that their benefactor is Shell!!

Not sure that three sanctioned events benefitting the TW Foundation is in quite the same spirit.

Would also cynically offer that a lot of individual player charitable giving is more successfully leveraging resources - the Champions Tour PSA about "charitable giving" is pretty nauseating. I know there are exceptions, but . . . . . . !!

robopz wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:...what would they care? They're minted. I see/hear nothing currently which suggests any of the top players care about anything except their own bank balances.

Not sure I agree with that.  What I see is LOTS and LOTS of players taking an interest in development of the game in their own ways.  Many through charities, or foundations of their own, or participation in programs of others to grow golf.

But I dunno... perhaps we expect too much of the players in the "growth of the game" regard.  Beyond their personal efforts... what should they be doing that they're not doing already?  It seems to me their primary way top players in the prime of their careers can grow the game is to play the best they can and provide the entertainment and thus hopefully inspiration to those who might be interested in golf.  

True. After I hit hit the 'Send' button I thought I was being a bit harsh. Even if they were solely for themselves, I'm not sure why I (or anyone else?) should be surprised by that.

I can speak first hand (to some degree) to the "community" involvement in promoting and executing a professional golf tournament. In broad terms, our club did NOT make money on the gate or the TV ratings/viewership ... but did on the merchandise and the corporate tents. Makes perfect sense: the club members had the contacts (and in many cases the resources) to market and buy the corporate tents/events. And, more people in attendance means more shirts, etc. sold.

Another thing to mention is that live sporting events are now more attractive to major networks than ever before. Why? In this day and age, when people can ingest entertainment whenever (and now virtually wherever) they want ... a LIVE event is truly more compelling ... and knowing that X golfer won a tournament and then watching it on a recorded basis is a YAWN unless you successfully go into a media blackout (which is not easy to do!).

[quote="navyblueshorts"]

George1507 wrote:Good post. Re. the last bit though - what would they care? They're minted. I see/hear nothing currently which suggests any of the top players care about anything except their own bank balances.

That's exactly the point. If the top players like Westwood and McIlroy and co desert the European Tour entirely because prize money is better in the US, then the European Tour is always going to struggle. My viewpoint, however old fashioned, is that European players owe the European Tour for getting them to a position (from a financial perspective) where they can choose where they want to play golf. If the European Tour sinks beneath the waves then younger players coming up will be denied the same chances Westwood and co have had. So I think the Europeans should - for reasons of loyalty - support more events on the European Tour than they do. There should be no question of them just scraping the minimum number of events. It's not as if they get just a pittance in Europe - it may not be for the huge money available in the US - but European prize money is still very good.

I hate this "sense of entitlement" that pervades professional sport. They are fortunate to be paid for playing sport and I think loyalty should come a little higher on their radar.