Hypothetical Drafting

Comparing players from different generations is an impossible task. When I think of Terry Wright and put him in the current NZ squad I would fear for his safety simply in the training sessions. Carl Hayman might be more at home in that respect but I'm not so sure a man of his size is suited to the new scrum laws.

But let's say hypothetically you are free to choose any player at the peak of his powers from any generation so long as he was once attached to the amateur era at some stage of his career. For example, I might be able to choose Lomu but not Muliaina.

You can choose one back and one forward and explain why you feel the need to plug your curre t squad with that player. For example, you might think as a Wales fan an alternative to Phillips is needed and why not draft in Gareth Edwards in his prime? Would class still apply in today's environment and would the squad benefit from his inclusion?

So as we're having a problem with centre I'd like to see Frank Bunce drafted in. I loved Smokin Joe with his upturned collar but Bunce and Little was my favourite partnership (that 95 team was perhaps my favourite) and Nonu and Bunce sound too similar but Id much prefer that than Nonu and Little. I think he'd shore up Nonu on defence and we'd gain a slight edge on attack.

I'd love to draft in Colin Meads just to see how he'd play but Craig Dowd or Olo Brown might be a better bet for our current scrum woes and I think Olo Brown look at my straight back would be a useful addition though I'm not sure how much we'd lose in attack with his inclusion. So I'll go with Fitzaptrick as I know we'd be better off on attack, defence and set piece with him in the side.

Who would you choose from your nation's amateur era to improve your current test side?

For Ireland, I would choose Mike Gibson, he was simply one of the best players I have had the privilege to watch.

To replace BOD or D'Arcy? And who would you have at their peak: BOD or Gibson?

To replace BOD now, not the BOD of the past.

At their peak I would have Gibson 12 with BOD 13, a sort of Horan - Little combination

For Ireland I'd draft in Denis Hickie - a player who might well have out Bodded BOD under a coach like Schmidt both at Leinster and Ireland.
Oh an I'd draft in big lumbering Horgan too.

Oh only one back?  Em Hickie then.... or maybe Horgan............

Anyway, on to forwards..... without a doubt David Wallace - just a fearless driver.

+1 on Davis Wallace, Ireland do miss him greatly.

Nice one Nachos. Only one Secret otherwise it doesn't get to come true.  

For Wales well I am torn between Gareth and JPR but given Phillips is coming to end of carear and I am no fan of Ll Williams it would have to be Gareth.

In the forwards well not quite sure at the momentbut again given Adams current injury and no ready made back up it would have to be the legend that is Graham Price.

would have loved to have seen Danie Gerber and Mannetjies Roux in the modern era.

My father in law still says Mannetjies Roux is the best player he's ever seen.... then again they were at school together so it could be a pride thing.

Scott Quinnell, need another ball carrier who can get us over the gain line time and time again

For Ireland it would have to be the enigmatic Simon Goeghegan. In my mind he had it all and quite possibly the best winger to ever wear the green of Ireland.

He was fearless.

Ive no doubt that lots of people dont rate him or dont even know who he is but he was in my mind anyway an incredible rugby player in almost every way and Id absolutely love to see him playing again.

Shame injury robbed him of a long career GG. He was fearless and super quick but he wasn't the biggest lad. Don't you think he might get worn down by the impact of the pro era? His heart might not gov out on him but maybe his body?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Shame injury robbed him of a long career GG. He was fearless and super quick but he wasn't the biggest lad. Don't you think he might get worn down by the impact of the pro era? His heart might not gov out on him but maybe his body?

He might not have been the biggest guy around but he might have been the bravest. One of the few guys at the 1995 WC that stopped Lomu every time. There has never been a bigger winger than him. Plus pro rugby has made room for guys like Aplon and Williams. I have no doubt he would make it into the Ireland team even now.

I'm not denying his defensive skills. Just saying how much did that heart contribute to his injuries. Like Johnny Wilkonson's fearlessness and his run with injuries.

I thought of Geoghegen but I've overused his name in the past.  And I also felt like kia, he had the skills but perhaps would find he lacked a little in the physicality department in today's game when forced to push himself through obstacles rather than use that elusiveness of his.
Fionn Carr reminds me of him.  A player who might have excelled in a less physical and tightened up defensive era.
But he was a damn fine player when Ireland forwards weren't interested in passing to damn fine players

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I'm not denying his defensive skills. Just saying how much did that heart contribute to his injuries. Like Johnny Wilkonson's fearlessness and his run with injuries.

It was a bit of a freak injury I think. He had no cartlidge left in his toe so couldnt run anymore. Who knows, its a fair arguement. Probably was the sort of guy that would never get 100 caps but I relished watching the games he did play in.

By that token if there was a guy from another team I could bring back it would be without any doubt Joost.

Jiffy. Legend.

GunsGerms wrote:For Ireland it would have to be the enigmatic Simon Goeghegan. In my mind he had it all and quite possibly the best winger to ever wear the green of Ireland.

Yup totally agree Guns - fantastic player. He'd have got 50+ tries if he'd arrived a generation later.

I'll go for Willie John in the forwards. A wee bit of an obvious one but he'd add steel and leadership.

Zinzan Brooke as a forward and a back. And that's why. That 45 meter drop goal against England in 1995 RWC knock out match is still the most audacious no 8 play I've ever seen. Puts JW's 2003 droppie to absolute shame. Insane.

The absolute prototype if the hybrid back rower. The template to which all NZ loose forwards aspire and the foundation of NZ's modern game. So many skills, and yet such brutal intensity.

Reason: we need cover at 8 for Read and old zinzan is the only player fit to lace his boots at he moment.

Was Zinzan as good as Dallagio or Corry though?

rodders wrote:Was Zinzan as good as Dallagio or Corry though?

Wash your mouth out with soap...

rodders wrote:Was Zinzan as good as Dallagio or Corry though?

Wasn't as good as Buck.

I would LOVE to have both Guscott and Carling back as the England centres. Would do us the world of good.

But please, not Rob Andrew...

GloriousEmpire wrote:Zinzan Brooke as a forward and a back. And that's why. That 45 meter drop goal against England in 1995 RWC knock out match is still the most audacious no 8 play I've ever seen. Puts JW's 2003 droppie to absolute shame. Insane.

The absolute prototype if the hybrid back rower. The template to which all NZ loose forwards aspire and the foundation of NZ's modern game. So many skills, and yet such brutal intensity.

Reason: we need cover at 8 for Read and old zinzan is the only player fit to lace his boots at he moment.

Put it into perspective GE, Matt Dunning's was just as good if not better. Also JW's was with his wrong foot.

I saw the great man anyhow training with the ABs about a year after his famous DG... he was practicing drop goals from the 10metre line with Merthens etc, of the half a dozen he took not one got close and they at best resembled a "sally gunnell".

1. Os duRandt
3. Adrian Garvey
10. Henry Honiball or Naas Botha

Biltong wrote:1. Os duRandt
3. Adrian Garvey
10. Henry Honiball or Naas Botha

BB.... Uli Schmidt or Bismarck?

The Bismarck all the way mate.

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Zinzan Brooke as a forward and a back. And that's why. That 45 meter drop goal against England in 1995 RWC knock out match is still the most audacious no 8 play I've ever seen. Puts JW's 2003 droppie to absolute shame. Insane.

The absolute prototype if the hybrid back rower. The template to which all NZ loose forwards aspire and the foundation of NZ's modern game. So many skills, and yet such brutal intensity.

Reason: we need cover at 8 for Read and old zinzan is the only player fit to lace his boots at he moment.

Put it into perspective GE, Matt Dunning's was just as good if not better. Also JW's was with his wrong foot.

I saw the great man anyhow training with the ABs about a year after his famous DG... he was practicing drop goals from the 10metre line with Merthens etc, of the half a dozen he took not one got close and they at best resembled a "sally gunnell".

Interesting...I saw him when training when the ABs played in Ireland in 1989 and doing the drop goal "game" some of the ABs did at the end of training. Looked pretty handy to me...

ME-109 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Zinzan Brooke as a forward and a back. And that's why. That 45 meter drop goal against England in 1995 RWC knock out match is still the most audacious no 8 play I've ever seen. Puts JW's 2003 droppie to absolute shame. Insane.

The absolute prototype if the hybrid back rower. The template to which all NZ loose forwards aspire and the foundation of NZ's modern game. So many skills, and yet such brutal intensity.

Reason: we need cover at 8 for Read and old zinzan is the only player fit to lace his boots at he moment.

Put it into perspective GE, Matt Dunning's was just as good if not better. Also JW's was with his wrong foot.

I saw the great man anyhow training with the ABs about a year after his famous DG... he was practicing drop goals from the 10metre line with Merthens etc, of the half a dozen he took not one got close and they at best resembled a "sally gunnell".

Interesting...I saw him when training when the ABs played in Ireland in 1989 and doing the drop goal "game" some of the ABs did at the end of training. Looked pretty handy to me...

Its strange that they perhaps take drop goal practice at the end of training sessions.... and yet they hardly ever attempt any?

fa0019 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Zinzan Brooke as a forward and a back. And that's why. That 45 meter drop goal against England in 1995 RWC knock out match is still the most audacious no 8 play I've ever seen. Puts JW's 2003 droppie to absolute shame. Insane.

The absolute prototype if the hybrid back rower. The template to which all NZ loose forwards aspire and the foundation of NZ's modern game. So many skills, and yet such brutal intensity.

Reason: we need cover at 8 for Read and old zinzan is the only player fit to lace his boots at he moment.

Put it into perspective GE, Matt Dunning's was just as good if not better. Also JW's was with his wrong foot.

I saw the great man anyhow training with the ABs about a year after his famous DG... he was practicing drop goals from the 10metre line with Merthens etc, of the half a dozen he took not one got close and they at best resembled a "sally gunnell".

Interesting...I saw him when training when the ABs played in Ireland in 1989 and doing the drop goal "game" some of the ABs did at the end of training. Looked pretty handy to me...

Its strange that they perhaps take drop goal practice at the end of training sessions.... and yet they hardly ever attempt any?

Prepare for anything and have it in your armoury when needed.

fa0019 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Zinzan Brooke as a forward and a back. And that's why. That 45 meter drop goal against England in 1995 RWC knock out match is still the most audacious no 8 play I've ever seen. Puts JW's 2003 droppie to absolute shame. Insane.

The absolute prototype if the hybrid back rower. The template to which all NZ loose forwards aspire and the foundation of NZ's modern game. So many skills, and yet such brutal intensity.

Reason: we need cover at 8 for Read and old zinzan is the only player fit to lace his boots at he moment.

Put it into perspective GE, Matt Dunning's was just as good if not better. Also JW's was with his wrong foot.

I saw the great man anyhow training with the ABs about a year after his famous DG... he was practicing drop goals from the 10metre line with Merthens etc, of the half a dozen he took not one got close and they at best resembled a "sally gunnell".

Interesting...I saw him when training when the ABs played in Ireland in 1989 and doing the drop goal "game" some of the ABs did at the end of training. Looked pretty handy to me...

Its strange that they perhaps take drop goal practice at the end of training sessions.... and yet they hardly ever attempt any?

True now that you mention it. But at the time I remember that it was basically a "game" they played...didn't look too serious...but obviously it worked out for Zinzan in the WC game

I'd probs draft in two props for Scotland - Iain 'the Bear' Milne at tighthead and Ian 'Mighty Mouse' McLachlan - no way is any oppo loosehead going to get the better of the Bear, while Mighty Mouse on the other side of the front row can set to work on the oppo tighthead

Odd Asbo. Id have thought a centre or a fly half would've been a bigger priority. A Gregor Townshend say and I'll let that count as a forward so you can pick a Scott Hastings type player.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Odd Asbo. Id have thought a centre or a fly half would've been a bigger priority. A Gregor Townshend say and I'll let that count as a forward so you can pick a Scott Hastings type player.

Kia, we could draft in Dan Carter (Scottish cousin thrice removed!) and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference imo - without the ball, particularly our own, even the great DC would struggle. Also with Weir and Jackson coming through at 10, Scott (and perhaps Taylor) at second 5/8th, with the Messiah at outside centre, I'm relatively confident that we'll be improving in that areas soon. But maybe if you gave me a third draft pick, I'd be introducing John Rutherford

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Odd Asbo. Id have thought a centre or a fly half would've been a bigger priority. A Gregor Townshend say and I'll let that count as a forward so you can pick a Scott Hastings type player.

Kia, we could draft in Dan Carter (Scottish cousin thrice removed!) and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference imo - without the ball, particularly our own, even the great DC would struggle.  Also with Weir and Jackson coming through at 10, Scott (and perhaps Taylor) at second 5/8th, with the Messiah at outside centre, I'm relatively confident that we'll be improving in that areas soon.  But maybe if you gave me a third draft pick, I'd be introducing John Rutherford

I take a slightly different outlook on this. I think we have a decent forward pack and a very good backrow (something we've had for the last 5 odd years +). But our limitations by having no general in the middle of the park means all the hard work the pack does is wasted.

When you look at it since the days of Craig Chalmers & Gregor Townsend (pre 2000) the locker room has been pretty dry in that department. I'm not saying it would make the different between us winning titles etc but a class flyhalf would do wonders for our game.

For England -
 
Easy pick is Will greenwood at 12. The one player from the 03 squad that we have never really found an adequate replacement for. Big enough to handle the physicality and with great skills and brain.
 
Forwards are harder to pick - our current pack's only obvious weakness is it is lacking a ball carrier, otherwise it is a combination of good and very good players, most of whom are still young and progressing. Probably would have to pick a ball carrying 6 - Rodber or Ben Clarke might be the best option (clearly Richard Hill and MJ are the best forwards we've had in the relatively recent past, but neither were particularly noted for ball carrying, so would only be an incremental improvement on what we currently have).

I still wonder which was the better backrow for England....

Hill, Back & Dillaglio or
Clarke, Winterbottom & Richards.

Juba "The Rolls Royce of Fullbacks and the Mighty OS

fa0019 wrote:I still wonder which was the better backrow for England....

Hill, Back & Dillaglio or
Clarke, Winterbottom & Richards.

have to go with hill, back and dallaglio there. hill and dallaglio's all round footballing skills were incredible. dallaglio was in england's world cup winning sevens side before he got his senior england cap. and together they really were epic.

best example of all time for me was the 13-15 (i think that was the score) win vs NZ in NZ in 2003. with England down to 13 players NZ still couldnt score. and i lost count of the number of times dallaglio turned over the ball and stripped players of it.

quinsforever wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I still wonder which was the better backrow for England....

Hill, Back & Dillaglio or
Clarke, Winterbottom & Richards.

have to go with hill, back and dallaglio there. hill and dallaglio's all round footballing skills were incredible. dallaglio was in england's world cup winning sevens side before he got his senior england cap. and together they really were epic.

best example of all time for me was the 13-15 (i think that was the score) win vs NZ in NZ in 2003. with England down to 13 players NZ still couldnt score. and i lost count of the number of times dallaglio turned over the ball and stripped players of it.

Wasn't Back and Dillaglio the 2 that got binned?

FA
the best would have been Winterbottom, Hill and Dayglo.  

A little more seriously, obviously the 03 back row would still be very comeptetive, but I think Dean Richards limitations would be exposed by the far more athletic game that is now required. For its time though, a back row of Winterbottom, Clarke/Skinner/Teague and Richards was pretty outstanding.

Bullsbok wrote:Juba "The Rolls Royce of Fullbacks  and the Mighty OS

Real shame we only saw him 2/3 way through his career.

dummy_half wrote:FA
the best would have been Winterbottom, Hill and Dayglo.  

A little more seriously, obviously the 03 back row would still be very comeptetive, but I think Dean Richards limitations would be exposed by the far more athletic game that is now required. For its time though, a back row of Winterbottom, Clarke/Skinner/Teague and Richards was pretty outstanding.

You think? Sure he was near 20st if not more but remember it was a amateur sport and he never seemed to be out of the game. Had he been pro he would have obviously been a lot sharper. He had the longterm skills which would set him apart.... if someone could put a bolt-lock on the cookie jar that is!!!

fa0019 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I still wonder which was the better backrow for England....

Hill, Back & Dillaglio or
Clarke, Winterbottom & Richards.

have to go with hill, back and dallaglio there. hill and dallaglio's all round footballing skills were incredible. dallaglio was in england's world cup winning sevens side before he got his senior england cap. and together they really were epic.

best example of all time for me was the 13-15 (i think that was the score) win vs NZ in NZ in 2003. with England down to 13 players NZ still couldnt score. and i lost count of the number of times dallaglio turned over the ball and stripped players of it.

Wasn't Back and Dillaglio the 2 that got binned?

think it was Back and Hill. Dayglo made 100 tackles and played 6,7 and 8 all at the same time during the overlapping 5 mins Fair point though

FA

Deano was an absolute powerhouse (a fact also utilised by Leicestershire Constabulary, for whom Sargent Richards specialised in breaking up pub brawls), and fit brilliantly with the gameplan England had at the time - probably one of the strongest players (in terms of static strength rather than dynamic power) England have ever had. I suspect the requirements of the modern game would make someone of his physical attributes (6ft 3 and 19 stone according to Wikipedia) a prop rather than a #8 if coming through as a youngster now.

dummy_half wrote:FA

Deano was an absolute powerhouse (a fact also utilised by Leicestershire Constabulary, for whom Sargent Richards specialised in breaking up pub brawls), and fit brilliantly with the gameplan England had at the time - probably one of the strongest players (in terms of static strength rather than dynamic power) England have ever had. I suspect the requirements of the modern game would make someone of his physical attributes (6ft 3 and 19 stone according to Wikipedia) a prop rather than a #8 if coming through as a youngster now.

If that logic is used why isn't Billy V playing tighthead???  

Kevin McKenzie. a hooker from the era of hookers who hook but one with the ability to play a modern game. Career cut short by injury if I remember correctly but I also remember him as being a great footballer.

I don't think we can sub in entire teams here, right gents.

But for England I will take four forwards:
the first player I want on the pitch is Richard Hill.  
second player is Martin Johnson
third player I want is Tim Rodber (best player I ever played with)
Last forward is Dallaglio
What they all have in common is a core of steel and dead-nuts refusals to give an inch.

In the centres I would pair Greenwood with Jerry Guscott.  

This would make me very happy.

fa0019 wrote:I still wonder which was the better backrow for England....

Hill, Back & Dillaglio or
Clarke, Winterbottom & Richards.

Surely you have to have Teague in there somewhere he wasn't known as Iron Mike for nothing.