Scotland v Australia, 23 November

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:31 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 Bangin12

v Australia Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 Smiley18

23 November 2013, KO: 18:00
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh

Referee: Jaco Peyper (RSA)
AR1: Pascal Gauzere (FRA)
AR2: Francisco Pastrana (ARG)
TMO: Geoff Warren (ENG)

LIVE on BBC

A. Teams:

1. Jessies

15 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps, 1 try, 5 points
14 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
13 Nick De Luca (Edinburgh Rugby) 40 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Duncan Taylor (Saracens) 5 caps
11 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 81 caps, 12 tries, 60 points

10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps, 1 try, 2 conversions, 9 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) 23 caps, 3 tries, 23 conversions, 49 penalties, 208 points

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) 12 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 70 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps
4 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby)
5 Jim Hamilton (Montpellier) 49 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 25 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) 59 caps, 4 tries, 20 points CAPTAIN
8 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 16 caps

16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
17 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 29 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
18 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) 57 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
19 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
20 Kieran Low (London Irish) uncapped
21 Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors) 63 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
22 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 23 caps, 3 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals 18 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 36 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

2. Wallabies
Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 Edna10

Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 Edna10

15 Israel Folau
14 Joe Tomane
13 Christian Leali'ifano
12 Mike Harris
11 Chris Feauai-Sautia
10 Quade Cooper
9 Will Genia

8 Ben Mowen (capt)
7 Michael Hooper
6 Scott Fardy
5 James Horwill
4 Rob Simmons
3 Sekope Kepu
2 Stephen Moore
1 James Slipper

16 Saia Fainga'a
17 Ben Alexander
18 Paddy Ryan
19 Sitaleki Timani
20 Ben McCalman
21 Nic White
22 Nick Phipps
23 Bernard Foley

B. Recent Form - last seven

1. Scotland

Scotland - South Africa 0-28
Scotland - Italy 30-29
South Africa - Scotland 30-17
Samoa - Scotland 27-17
France - Scotland 23-16
Scotland - Wales 18-28
Scotland - Ireland 12-8

2. Australia

15-32 Ireland - Australia
20-13 England - Australia
41-33 New Zealand - Australia
17-54 Argentina - Australia
28-8 South Africa - Australia
14-13 Australia - Argentina
12-38 Australia - South Africa

C. Recent Form - head to head

5 June 2012, Hunter Stadium, Newcastle
Scotland Tour of Australasia
Australia 6 – 9 Scotland

21 November 2009, Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2009 Autumn International
Scotland 9 – 8 Australia

25 November 2006, Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2006 Autumn International
Scotland 15 – 44 Australia

20 November 2004, Hampden Park, Glasgow
2004 Autumn International
Scotland 17 – 31 Australia

6 November 2004, Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2004 Autumn International
Scotland 14 – 31 Australia

by funnyExiledScot Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:43 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Lock is the least of our problems. The Ozzies will ask a lot of questions of our midfield, I don't think we have any answers at the moment.

Richie Vernon to 12?

Richie Vernon-12, you mean?!

You're right, 10-12-13 remains a work in progress, and is exposed when there are injuries to key players
To be fair we are pretty unlucky to have injuries to Horne, Dunbar and Scott all at the same time. Taylor is probably our 4th choice 12, and given that he's a regular starter at 12 for Saracens in the Aviva at present is fairly impressive given that 4 years ago Graeme Morrison was first choice (with Sean Lamont 2nd choice).

At 13 we lost Joe Ansbro to injury and for some reason Alex Grove has fallen out of favour completely. SJ also seems reluctant to give Bennett a chance. Still, we have some options with Grove and Bennett, we just need SJ to give them a chance.
To be fair to Taylor, this is really his first season in the AP, prior to this he's been playing with Bedford in the championship. He's come in to fill the gap created by Brad Barritt's injury and done fairly well for Sarries, so he certainly merits his chance. Plus I don't think we should condemn him on the basis of his performance against the Bokke. But I'm not convinced that he should be/will be paired with Bennett in yet another midfield partnership - simply too green for me

Wow. Never thought the day would come where I advocated Bennett starting and you didn't!!

by tigertattie Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:57 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Nah. I'm still going to advocate a team of 15 props!
I may not have been the most nimble of players but I would never pass like Jackson and Weir did for the intercept try and the potential intercept try.

Even Barclay was going ape poopie at Weir, look back at the replay and

It was the only thing that brought a smile to my face on sunday!

Slow motion replay - you see Sean Lamont running and drops his head in disbelief. You then get John Barclay shout what can only be assumed as something along the lines of: "FFS, all you had to do was simply pass the ball through the hands you wee stumpy eejit"

Ergo my option of a team of props, maybe there is a case to have a backrow for breakdown reasons and they could be lifted in the lineout! Can you imagine a game where simple 5 yrd passing is the mantra? No loops. no miss passes. No wild interceptions! Just simple wee passes through the hands to the "Wing"

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:12 pm

On locks, Gilchrist is way down the pecking order after Gray, Gray, Swinson, Hamilton, Kellock and Ryder.

Like most of the people on here I cannot see what a succession of coaches see in Ross Ford. A truly dire rugby player who appears unwilling to do the basics and actually earn his fat pay check. Bit unfair to judge Taylor (and Weir) on that team performance. Laidlaw was poor also and showed no leadership- not least to give Ford a kick up the arse early on. Scott Johnson has a lot to answer for too. WTF was Ford left on after 20 mins, never mind 60 mins. Tactics were poor too - we knew how the Boks would play - can we not try to counter those tactics.

All in all watching that was another dreadful and depressing experience.

by tigertattie Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:46 pm

To be fair to SJ, you cannot really sub someone after 20 mins! And to be fair to Ford after half time he seemed to pick up slightly. Maybe he got his bottom smacked?

I do however think that ford should be dropped for the Oz game. By all means tell the press he is being "rested" but make it clear to ford that he has been dropped for not getting his finger out and if he wants back in for the 6ns then he needs to really show some fire in an edinburgh shirt until then!

by funnyExiledScot Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: the hooker situation it did surprise me slightly seeing Lawson on the bench rather than MacArthur. I do rate Lawson, but surely it's time to give MacArthur a chance to start an international. Ford certainly doesn't deserve another shot, although I may give him the chance to impact from the bench rather than dropping him completely.

by 123456789 Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:23 pm

12 is actually a position of strength for us at the moment, with Taylor behind Scott, Dunbar and Horne when all are fit and available. Scott is arguably the form 12 in the home nations and it is could arguable that he's currently the best all round British inside-centre, it does make you wonder how long Edinburgh can keep hold of him, it is also noticeable that Jackson and Weir relax and play better with Scott at 12 as not all the pressure is on them. If you compare our depth at twelve to the other British countries only England can claim to have better depth. Our issue is that in some positions (4,5,6,7,8 and 12) we have very good depth and others (1,2,3,9 and 10) we're relatively limited.

If I was the coach I'd say our best possible team is:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Swinson
5. Gray
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Bennett
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

My second choice would be:

1. Dickinson
2. MacArthur
3. Welsh
4. Hamilton
5. Gray jnr
6. Strockosch
7. Barclay
8. Denton
9. Laidlaw
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. De Luca
14. Lamont
15. Tonks

And third choice:

1. Low
2. Lawson
3. Cross
4. Ryder
5. Gilchrist
6. Harley
7. Fusaro
8. Wilson
9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson
11. Brown
12. Horne
13. Grove
14. Fife
15. Murchie

Our depth isn't as bad as people believe rather the problem is that when our players aren't on their game it could be catastrophic, like on Sunday. I say on Saturday we put out our best possible team and give something to build on in Dublin. This season we have a real chance to kick on and do something special, we could potentially put our best team out in the six nations, Ireland aren't going particularly well and we could finally get a win to start, then we have England at home which is a game that every Scotland player should rise to and we should beat Italy every time we play them as they are a second rate rugby nation. Putting a good performance in against Australia is imperative for confidence and to give us something to take into the six nations.

by reallybored Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:57 pm

Well that was disappointing but a bit of perspective, we started poorly with an under-strength team against the 2nd best team in the world playing well and took a beating.

Missing a handful of your best players (Hogg, Rennie, Scott, Murray, Visser) would weaken any side.

So, as long as we can put in a good performance against Australia (and by that I mean a win) then I won't be too worried by that result.

I'd like to see

1 R Grant (first-choice LH and better scrummager than Dicko)
2 P MacArthur (Ford's general play was good but we can't lose that much line-out ball)
3 E Murray (Low did well against Bok but Murray can punish teams up front on a good day)
4 T Swinson (turbo man is back in, obviously)
5 J Gray (Hamilton did fine against SA, Gr ay was active but no overly effective, but the young man adds more bang for your buck currently and he calls a good line-out)
6 R Harley (need more niggle and someone who's willing to get off the line quickly in defence, we're far too passive)
7 J Barclay (better than Fusaro and should be more effective at the breakdown against Oz)
8 J Beattie (Denton has carried willingly but doesn't look to offload, Beattie is a smarter player and when the mood suits more than capable of busting holes)
9 C Cusiter (sharper pass than Laidlaw, lifted the tempo against Boks)
10 D Weir (better kicking game and more stable than Jackson, distribution is fine but that's secondary to him dictating where the game is played)
11 T Seymour (did fine and there not much choice)
12 D Taylor (tough first start, couple mistakes but deserves another chance)
13 M Bennett (look I'm sick of waiting, De Luca will continue to put in average performances and occasionally do something good or awful, so let's see if the young man can supply a bit more spark in the midfield)
14 S Maitland (done well at FB but would like to see Tonks in for his big boot, so shift our best back to his best position)
15 G Tonks (mixed season for Edinburgh but he's a good player with a handy boot, can attack too)

16 R Ford
17 A Dickinson
18 M Low
19 R Gray
20 K Brown
21 G Laidlaw
22 R Jackson
23 S Lamont

First, get off the line in defence quickly and stop letting teams run at us, secondly start playing some smarter territory.

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:50 am

Apparently not too many problems with injuries, at least - this from the Herald:

Scotland, meanwhile, do not appear to have picked up too many extra difficulties from their weekend match with the Springboks. Moray Low, the prop, who damaged a shoulder, and Tommy Seymour, the wing who tweaked a calf muscle, are giving the most concern but neither has been ruled out of contention.

Of the rest, Greig Laidlaw, the captain and scrum half, was being treated for a cut knee and dead leg, while Nick De Luca, the centre, had damaged a shoulder. Neither is giving too much cause for concern while another seven were being treated for the usual bumps and bruises. "Considering the physicality of the game, our initial examination would suggest the overall squad are in better physical health than might have been expected," was James Robson, the team doctor's, verdict.

by doctor_grey Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:06 am

This was scheduled during the 50th Anniversary Doctor Who special. Maybe The Doctor can parachute in and give Scotland a hand. David Tennant is Scottish anyway. The stupid current one is, sadly, English.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:29 am

123456789 wrote:12 is actually a position of strength for us at the moment, with Taylor behind Scott, Dunbar and Horne when all are fit and available. Scott is arguably the form 12 in the home nations and it is could arguable that he's currently the best all round British inside-centre, it does make you wonder how long Edinburgh can keep hold of him, it is also noticeable that Jackson and Weir relax and play better with Scott at 12 as not all the pressure is on them. If you compare our depth at twelve to the other British countries only England can claim to have better depth. Our issue is that in some positions (4,5,6,7,8 and 12) we have very good depth and others (1,2,3,9 and 10) we're relatively limited.

If I was the coach I'd say our best possible team is:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Swinson
5. Gray
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Bennett
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

My second choice would be:

1. Dickinson
2. MacArthur
3. Welsh
4. Hamilton
5. Gray jnr
6. Strockosch
7. Barclay
8. Denton
9. Laidlaw
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. De Luca
14. Lamont
15. Tonks

And third choice:

1. Low
2. Lawson
3. Cross
4. Ryder
5. Gilchrist
6. Harley
7. Fusaro
8. Wilson
9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson
11. Brown
12. Horne
13. Grove
14. Fife
15. Murchie

Our depth isn't as bad as people believe rather the problem is that when our players aren't on their game it could be catastrophic, like on Sunday. I say on Saturday we put out our best possible team and give something to build on in Dublin. This season we have a real chance to kick on and do something special, we could potentially put our best team out in the six nations, Ireland aren't going particularly well and we could finally get a win to start, then we have England at home which is a game that every Scotland player should rise to and we should beat Italy every time we play them as they are a second rate rugby nation. Putting a good performance in against Australia is imperative for confidence and to give us something to take into the six nations.

Numbahs, I wouldn't disagree with your selections, but simply listing out 3 XVs of players doesn't make them international standard - as fES noted the other day on a different thread, you could count the number of truly international class Scottish players on one hand. Depth is undoubtedly a great thing to have, but isn't a great deal of use without strength to accompany it

by jimbopip Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:52 am

doctor_grey wrote:This was scheduled during the 50th Anniversary Doctor Who special. Maybe The Doctor can parachute in and give Scotland a hand. David Tennant is Scottish anyway. The stupid current one is, sadly, English.

Doctor Who, Doctor Grey? Doctor who?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:57 am

doctor_grey wrote:This was scheduled during the 50th Anniversary Doctor Who special. Maybe The Doctor can parachute in and give Scotland a hand. David Tennant is Scottish anyway. The stupid current one is, sadly, English.

Lord knows we need one on Saturday's showing, Dr_G

by Dorothy_Mantooth Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:07 am

123456789 wrote:12 is actually a position of strength for us at the moment, with Taylor behind Scott, Dunbar and Horne when all are fit and available. Scott is arguably the form 12 in the home nations and it is could arguable that he's currently the best all round British inside-centre, it does make you wonder how long Edinburgh can keep hold of him, it is also noticeable that Jackson and Weir relax and play better with Scott at 12 as not all the pressure is on them. If you compare our depth at twelve to the other British countries only England can claim to have better depth. Our issue is that in some positions (4,5,6,7,8 and 12) we have very good depth and others (1,2,3,9 and 10) we're relatively limited.

If I was the coach I'd say our best possible team is:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Swinson
5. Gray
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Bennett
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

My second choice would be:

1. Dickinson
2. MacArthur
3. Welsh
4. Hamilton
5. Gray jnr
6. Strockosch
7. Barclay
8. Denton
9. Laidlaw
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. De Luca
14. Lamont
15. Tonks

And third choice:

1. Low
2. Lawson
3. Cross
4. Ryder
5. Gilchrist
6. Harley
7. Fusaro
8. Wilson
9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson
11. Brown
12. Horne
13. Grove
14. Fife
15. Murchie

Our depth isn't as bad as people believe rather the problem is that when our players aren't on their game it could be catastrophic, like on Sunday. I say on Saturday we put out our best possible team and give something to build on in Dublin. This season we have a real chance to kick on and do something special, we could potentially put our best team out in the six nations, Ireland aren't going particularly well and we could finally get a win to start, then we have England at home which is a game that every Scotland player should rise to and we should beat Italy every time we play them as they are a second rate rugby nation. Putting a good performance in against Australia is imperative for confidence and to give us something to take into the six nations.

We have "very good" depth at 12? We have Scott and then a few decent prospects who at this point are unproven at top International level.

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:10 am

doctor_grey wrote:This was scheduled during the 50th Anniversary Doctor Who special. Maybe The Doctor can parachute in and give Scotland a hand. David Tennant is Scottish anyway. The stupid current one is, sadly, English.

Ah, but old Matt Floppyquiff is being replaced by Peter Capaldi, a proud man of Glasgow (and Oscar winning director, mofos).

by tigertattie Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:28 am

I hope that Laidloaw can recover from his cut knee in time for Sat!

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:31 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
123456789 wrote:12 is actually a position of strength for us at the moment, with Taylor behind Scott, Dunbar and Horne when all are fit and available. Scott is arguably the form 12 in the home nations and it is could arguable that he's currently the best all round British inside-centre, it does make you wonder how long Edinburgh can keep hold of him, it is also noticeable that Jackson and Weir relax and play better with Scott at 12 as not all the pressure is on them. If you compare our depth at twelve to the other British countries only England can claim to have better depth. Our issue is that in some positions (4,5,6,7,8 and 12) we have very good depth and others (1,2,3,9 and 10) we're relatively limited.

If I was the coach I'd say our best possible team is:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Swinson
5. Gray
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Bennett
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

My second choice would be:

1. Dickinson
2. MacArthur
3. Welsh
4. Hamilton
5. Gray jnr
6. Strockosch
7. Barclay
8. Denton
9. Laidlaw
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. De Luca
14. Lamont
15. Tonks

And third choice:

1. Low
2. Lawson
3. Cross
4. Ryder
5. Gilchrist
6. Harley
7. Fusaro
8. Wilson
9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson
11. Brown
12. Horne
13. Grove
14. Fife
15. Murchie

Our depth isn't as bad as people believe rather the problem is that when our players aren't on their game it could be catastrophic, like on Sunday. I say on Saturday we put out our best possible team and give something to build on in Dublin. This season we have a real chance to kick on and do something special, we could potentially put our best team out in the six nations, Ireland aren't going particularly well and we could finally get a win to start, then we have England at home which is a game that every Scotland player should rise to and we should beat Italy every time we play them as they are a second rate rugby nation. Putting a good performance in against Australia is imperative for confidence and to give us something to take into the six nations.
Numbahs, I wouldn't disagree with your selections, but simply listing out 3 XVs of players doesn't make them international standard - as fES noted the other day on a different thread, you could count the number of truly international class Scottish players on one hand. Depth is undoubtedly a great thing to have, but isn't a great deal of use without strength to accompany it

I think that we're being hard on Numbers, here.

All he said was that our depth isn't as bad as some would make out and I think that point is supported by the 3 sides set out above. We're currently 9th in the world. Both of the first two teams set out above would give any of the other top 10 sides a competitive match. A couple of years ago, to have 4 locks that we'd rather start before Ryder and Gilchrist would have been dreamy stuff, but that's where we are. The same applies to a number of other positions.

Very few teams can boast established (I assume that this is what Dot is getting at by "untested") international quality players when your remove the first two choices. 12 is a good example. Take away the top 2 for Wales (Roberts, Scott Williams) and you're at Cory Allen (uncapped until last week). Do it for Ireland (D'Arcy, Marshall) and you're down to the likes of Downey who, whilst a talented lad, has to be in the 'unproven internationally category'.

All I'm saying is let's keep the gloom in perspective. We are in a much healthier state than we've been in for 5 years. IMO, obviously.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:46 am

tigertattie wrote:I hope that Laidloaw can recover from his cut knee in time for Sat!

Not too bothered, tattie, to be honest, I'd like to see Cus get a start

by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:46 am

I agree that we only have one proven international quality 12 - Matt Scott. However, I am more comfortable with Horne and Dunbar as alternatives than I ever was with Morrison and Lamont at 12, and I still hold high hopes than Duncan Taylor will prove a competent alternative at international level.

As against other top sides we may not have "strength in depth", but we're a long way forward from a few years ago in that position. I count at least three potential inside centres who can actually run and pass a rugby ball at the same time!!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:48 am

George Carlin wrote:
I think that we're being hard on Numbers, here.

All he said was that our depth isn't as bad as some would make out and I think that point is supported by the 3 sides set out above. We're currently 9th in the world. Both of the first two teams set out above would give any of the other top 10 sides a competitive match. A couple of years ago, to have 4 locks that we'd rather start before Ryder and Gilchrist would have been dreamy stuff, but that's where we are. The same applies to a number of other positions.

Very few teams can boast established (I assume that this is what Dot is getting at by "untested") international quality players when your remove the first two choices. 12 is a good example. Take away the top 2 for Wales (Roberts, Scott Williams) and you're at Cory Allen (uncapped until last week). Do it for Ireland (D'Arcy, Marshall) and you're down to the likes of Downey who, whilst a talented lad, has to be in the 'unproven internationally category'.

All I'm saying is let's keep the gloom in perspective. We are in a much healthier state than we've been in for 5 years. IMO, obviously.

Not meaning to be harsh on numbahs, GC, just adding a spoonful of reality!! Wink

I'm not sure that we can count on any Scottish side giving a full strength NZ or South Africa a competitive game at the moment - of course, injuries and other absences can play a role and turn out helpful to us, just as at the moment, they are arguably playing against us.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:01 am

I’m kind of on the fence with this strength and depth debate. Backrow, Second row and Scrum Half I would say we have numerous international class options. Even at centre when we have everybody fit we have some very talented guys. Compare it to the likes of Dewey, Henderson and Morrison. This should give you a decent indication as to how far we have come.

It is at lock that I would say we have the deepest well of talent. The Gray bro’s, Swinson, Hamilton, Gilchrist and Kellock. Not a bad set of options.

Things have improved but we still have a few years IMO until we see the best out of these guys.

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:03 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
I think that we're being hard on Numbers, here.

All he said was that our depth isn't as bad as some would make out and I think that point is supported by the 3 sides set out above. We're currently 9th in the world. Both of the first two teams set out above would give any of the other top 10 sides a competitive match. A couple of years ago, to have 4 locks that we'd rather start before Ryder and Gilchrist would have been dreamy stuff, but that's where we are. The same applies to a number of other positions.

Very few teams can boast established (I assume that this is what Dot is getting at by "untested") international quality players when your remove the first two choices. 12 is a good example. Take away the top 2 for Wales (Roberts, Scott Williams) and you're at Cory Allen (uncapped until last week). Do it for Ireland (D'Arcy, Marshall) and you're down to the likes of Downey who, whilst a talented lad, has to be in the 'unproven internationally category'.

All I'm saying is let's keep the gloom in perspective. We are in a much healthier state than we've been in for 5 years. IMO, obviously.
Not meaning to be harsh on numbahs, GC, just adding a spoonful of reality!! I'm not sure that we can count on any Scottish side giving a full strength NZ or South Africa a competitive game at the moment - of course, injuries and other absences can play a role and turn out helpful to us, just as at the moment, they are arguably playing against us.

Agree. Just saying we are world class*.

* provided that just before we play anyone the opposing team's coach bans most of them for going on a midweek drunken stooshie.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:21 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It is at lock that I would say we have the deepest well of talent. The Gray bro’s, Swinson, Hamilton, Gilchrist and Kellock. Not a bad set of options.

Not bad options, but I'd suggest that only Richie Gray, Jim Hamilton and Tim Swinson are actually international class locks from that selection. Lose one of these guys and you open the door to mediocrity (at international level).

Kellock is very average at international level, and Gilchrist and Gray Jnr are completely unproven.

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:26 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It is at lock that I would say we have the deepest well of talent. The Gray bro’s, Swinson, Hamilton, Gilchrist and Kellock. Not a bad set of options.
Not bad options, but I'd suggest that only Richie Gray, Jim Hamilton and Tim Swinson are actually international class locks from that selection. Lose one of these guys and you open the door to mediocrity (at international level).

Kellock is very average at international level, and Gilchrist and Gray Jnr are completely unproven.

Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 Doomed10

by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:31 am

GC - I can't see that picture on my work computer, so I'm just going to imagine an emoticon clapping furiously......

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:36 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:GC - I can't see that picture on my work computer, so I'm just going to imagine an emoticon clapping furiously......

Close - it's Private Frazer suggesting that everyone is doomed... Hug

by tigertattie Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:42 am

Speaking of being doomed, did you know that if sea levels rise by 2 metres (predicted to happen in the future) then 85% of Fife will be underwater!

by **RDW** Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:43 am

tigertattie wrote:Speaking of being doomed, did you know that if sea levels rise by 2 metres (predicted to happen in the future) then 85% of Fife will be underwater!

That's cause for celebration! Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 3559488474

by tigertattie Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:43 am

tigertattie wrote:Speaking of being doomed, did you know that if sea levels rise by 2 metres (predicted to happen in the future) then 85% of Fife will be underwater!

oh, and if it does happen, I'm pretty sure GC will be fecked!

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:48 am

tigertattie wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Speaking of being doomed, did you know that if sea levels rise by 2 metres (predicted to happen in the future) then 85% of Fife will be underwater!
oh, and if it does happen, I'm pretty sure GC will be fecked!

The government over here would probably be able to pay to have the whole city lifted by two and a half meters.

You can pay students to do anything.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:03 am

tigertattie wrote:Speaking of being doomed, did you know that if sea levels rise by 2 metres (predicted to happen in the future) then 85% of Fife will be underwater!

Looks like the filth of Kirkcaldy will be washed away. They just built a brand new swimming pool on the sea front too. Doh

by R!skysports Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:23 am

tigertattie wrote:Speaking of being doomed, did you know that if sea levels rise by 2 metres (predicted to happen in the future) then 85% of Fife will be underwater!

Trying to work out the downside....

by R!skysports Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:23 am

If Ford is selected again - even on the bench I am going to pop

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:28 am

Riskysports wrote:If Ford is selected again - even on the bench I am going to pop

Going to the game on Saturday.

You know what grinds my gears? furious

The fact that we have a silly countdown prior to kick off, and the fact that we play music all the time after scores, penalties etc.

It's a bit lame to be honest.

by R!skysports Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:36 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Riskysports wrote:If Ford is selected again - even on the bench I am going to pop
Going to the game on Saturday.

You know what grinds my gears?

The fact that we have a silly countdown prior to kick off, and the fact that we play music all the time after scores, penalties etc.

It's a bit lame to be honest.

Would have be quite quiet on Sunday

Have fun. I am going to be watching it from behind a pillow

But on the count down, that is needed as most of the Edinburgh fans there would not know what time the game was starting without their butlers present to tell them (they are in the car park) Very Happy

by Dorothy_Mantooth Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:37 am

[quote="RuggerRadge2611"]

Riskysports wrote:
The fact that we have a silly countdown prior to kick off, and the fact that we play music all the time after scores, penalties etc.

It's a bit lame to be honest.

Totally agree, but on the other hand if it were not for that manuactured noise, there would be no atmposphere at all.

by SecretFly Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:40 am

We'll be expecting payment up front before the game for the six Aussies we got drunk for you last week. Hmmmm................... now they were special players. Hungover on booze and maybe other things besides...and they still put us to the sword! Erm

Anyway...payment...in cash.... soon.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:44 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
The fact that we have a silly countdown prior to kick off, and the fact that we play music all the time after scores, penalties etc.

It's a bit lame to be honest.
Totally agree, but on the other hand if it were not for that manuactured noise, there would be no atmposphere at all.

What we need is a song, something to sing that isn't our national anthem. The Irish have fields of athenry, Swing Low of the English and the Welsh have hunners to sing.

You can't generate an atmosphere with moronic countdowns and pop music blaring from speakers.

I have heard loch Lomond being sung a bit but we need to try and get it ringing out properly without the speakers for encouragement.

It was really embarrasing when some fannies were trying to start a mexican wave on Sunday whilst that south african player lay injured. picard

by R!skysports Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:46 am

What ever happened to our song thread?

by tigertattie Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:52 am

It ended when "you cannae shove yer granny aff the bus" was suggested as a song for Glasgow!

by funnyExiledScot Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:59 am

The worst thing about the countdown is that they keep getting it wrong. The stadium announcer at Murrayfield either can't count or can't see, as he's always out of synch with the big screen.

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:00 pm

Aw come on. If SJ picks a pack like:
1 Grant
2 MacArthur
3 Murray
4 R Gray
5 Swinson
6 Brown
7 Barclay
8 Beattie,
then that should be more than a decent contest.

I am also very interested in a Cusiter-Weir hinge as I am increasingly finding it difficult to judge the performance of our centres when they receive flat passes at a standstill all game because of Laidlaw's' slightly stodgy service.

by **RDW** Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:20 pm

George Carlin wrote:Aw come on. If SJ picks a pack like:
1 Grant
2 MacArthur
3 Murray
4 R Gray
5 Swinson
6 Brown
7 Barclay
8 Beattie,
then that should be more than a decent contest.

I am also very interested in a Cusiter-Weir hinge as I am increasingly finding it difficult to judge the performance of our centres when they receive flat passes at a standstill all game because of Laidlaw's' slightly stodgy service.

All Glasgow or ex-Glasgow players.

by R!skysports Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:24 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Aw come on. If SJ picks a pack like:
1 Grant
2 MacArthur
3 Murray
4 R Gray
5 Swinson
6 Brown
7 Barclay
8 Beattie,
then that should be more than a decent contest.

I am also very interested in a Cusiter-Weir hinge as I am increasingly finding it difficult to judge the performance of our centres when they receive flat passes at a standstill all game because of Laidlaw's' slightly stodgy service.
All Glasgow or ex-Glasgow players.

No surprise when you look at league performance...

by tigertattie Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:25 pm

George Carlin wrote:
I am also very interested in a Cusiter-Weir hinge as I am increasingly finding it difficult to judge the performance of our centres when they receive flat passes at a standstill all game because of Laidlaw's' slightly stodgy service.

or passes to their feet from Wacko Jacko! Or when Wacko throws the ball to the back of Maitland's head! picard

see. Again I'm thinking of going with a team of all monkey

's, I mean forwards! Pop passes for the win!!!

by **RDW** Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:25 pm

Not saying it's a good or bad thing, just pointing out!

by R!skysports Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:26 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Not saying it's a good or bad thing, just pointing out!

You didn't emoticon it to let me know your true feelings.... king

by **RDW** Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:28 pm

Riskysports wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Not saying it's a good or bad thing, just pointing out!
You didn't emoticon it to let me know your true feelings....

Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 Cancan10

There you go.

by tigertattie Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:31 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:

.

is that the Edinburgh pack?

by R!skysports Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:31 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Not saying it's a good or bad thing, just pointing out!
You didn't emoticon it to let me know your true feelings....

There you go.

Either you have shorts on, or low hangling jubblies Shocked

by **RDW** Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:32 pm

Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 2 Roflbl10

I'm bringing out all the fancy ones now!

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