Should Gatland resign/be sacked

First topic message reminder :

6 Nations dominance is insufficient, Winning a lions tour means nothing. Is Gatland holding us back?

Wales are on 90% v the NH in the last 2 seasons but can't beat a SH side for toffee, last winning in 2008. If we can't beat the SH then competing in a RWC is just pointless.

9 Ls to Aus is absolutely intolerable even if we were missing key players today, Wales need new ideas. I think if we were losing in the 6 Nations Gats would have gone by now.

So, no poll, just an honest qualitative thread.

My take is drastic change is needed in the camp and how we play and are lead, but that to sack him 2 years out would do us even more harm.

My caveat is that, if he fails at 6 Nations time i would strongly advocate change immediately.

No, but he needs to shut up pre-match and start walking the walk.

You can't play like Australia vs Australia... it might work against other nations, but what you do NOT do, is play a game that other sides ARE USED TO.

You take them out their comfort zone and apply pressure to them overall, in addition to their weak areas.

Am wondering if the no scrums in 40mins was an agreement as once again the state of the pitch was appalling.

damage_13 wrote:No, but he needs to shut up pre-match and start walking the walk.

You can't play like Australia vs Australia... it might work against other nations, but what you do NOT do, is play a game that other sides ARE USED TO.

You take them out their comfort zone and apply pressure to them overall, in addition to their weak areas.

Am wondering if the no scrums in 40mins was an agreement as once again the state of the pitch was appalling.

What game did you watch?........... Wales played a forward driven, tight game exactly the opposite to Australia's expansive backs driven game

flyhalffactory wrote:

damage_13 wrote:No, but he needs to shut up pre-match and start walking the walk.

You can't play like Australia vs Australia... it might work against other nations, but what you do NOT do, is play a game that other sides ARE USED TO.

You take them out their comfort zone and apply pressure to them overall, in addition to their weak areas.

Am wondering if the no scrums in 40mins was an agreement as once again the state of the pitch was appalling.

What game did you watch?........... Wales played a forward driven, tight game exactly the opposite to Australia's expansive backs driven game

 
Relies on forward domination, they didn't have it, no Plan B, kick the ball down Folau's throat, QC on fire, guess the rest...

Australia are on such a streak against wales that they're probably at the stage where they don't want to be the unfortunate bunch of players that stuff up that record. Wales should treat games against them as a final. I bet the ABs think like this against Scots, Ireland, Argie and probably Wales. You 'must' not lose, or else!!!!

Yes, that's exactly how Australia treated the match... like a RWC pointy-end match.

He needs to change his attitude. GatlandBall don't beat the best. Good enough for 6Ns. But not the top sides. The players are available to do more.

Linebreaker wrote:Yes, that's exactly how Australia treated the match... like a RWC pointy-end match.

You have to be pretty proud of your lads LB. They have steadily improved under McKenzie. Some cracking players all starting to work well as a team.

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Who should we get?

What game plan would be better?

maestegmafia wrote:

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Who should we get?

What game plan would be better?

why don't you tell US maesteg, I'm listening…..or are you saying all is well in Cardiff?

Scratch wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Who should we get?

What game plan would be better?

why don't you tell US maesteg, I'm listening…..or are you saying all is well in Cardiff?

I am getting tired of people spouting changes as though changes will make the world of difference when those same posters, like you, don't have anything in mind mate..!

Let's hear your opinions...????

Or are you to worried that your thoughts will be decried as pointless?

Maybe your ideas could save welsh rugby? We don't know until we hear them...! So come on. What should we do to improve welsh rugby? Who's in who's out?

What's the new game plan and why will we do better?

maestegmafia wrote:

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Only if he won't change - he deserves this six nations.

What game plan would be better?

Unleash the backs you have with the right combo of halfbacks.  Philips has to go.  Halfpenny is a great counter-attacker  Give North and Cuthbert - wo fine wings give 'em licence to attack.  The forwards are good enough to get a good share of the ball.  Make it count by scoring tries.

TJ wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Only if he won't change - he deserves this six nations.

What game plan would be better?

Unleash the backs you have with the right combo of halfbacks.  Philips has to go.  Halfpenny is a great counter-attacker  Give North and Cuthbert - wo fine wings give 'em licence to attack.  The forwards are good enough to get a good share of the ball.  Make it count by scoring tries.  

You're absolutely right. Though some people are under the impression that if we had Roberts/JD2 starting we would have won. That's wrong, the game was lost at the breakdown again. And this defensive style gives the SH backs too much room to run. I thought Phillips time had come during that Lions tour but he's still in the team. If we're to move forward then we should have Rhodri Williams and Gareth Davies at 9.

maestegmafia wrote:

Scratch wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Who should we get?

What game plan would be better?

why don't you tell US maesteg, I'm listening…..or are you saying all is well in Cardiff?

I am getting tired of people spouting changes as though changes will make the world of difference when those same posters, like you, don't have anything in mind mate..!

Let's hear your opinions...????

Or are you to worried that your thoughts will be decried as pointless?

Maybe your ideas could save welsh rugby? We don't know until we hear them...! So come on. What should we do to improve welsh rugby? Who's in who's out?

What's the new game plan and why will we do better?

Maesteg I hope your little 606v2 tantrum has now ended. You are about as 'mafia' as one of my dogs farts. Loud, ripe but quickly forgotten.

Your posts are a galactic bore sometimes, you rattle your sabre like you are some rusty ageing Welsh Knight, here to protect the Welsh skirts from detractors who might just lift them up and have a good look underneath to see what is going on.

When you aren't spouting lines you got from the Coaches Guide on How to Handle the Press, you then spit your dummy when you read that not all Wales fans are as rabidly defensive about Wales as you are.

This is my thread, i asked for an honest debate about Gatland's position which is like a red rag to a maesteg, i called for change if he stuffs the 6 Nations then in you wade shouting the odds….you can't have change without saying what? Er yes you can. If Gatland stuffs the 6 Nations he should go, that is his own benchmark. I CAN SAY THAT without your permission and i already have on numerous threads, but you don't read that do you, you come on here shouting the odds like you own the place saying i can't do this or that. I regularly call for offload to return to our game, to fix the 10 issues by giving it Biggar, to stop utility substitutes because it wastes talent, to come up with another attack option than Bosh 12, to use the top 2 inches, to play Hook and North in the centre, to stop or match statements, to sack Sam, to remove Howley and possibly Edwards. All you can come up with is a petty dig at my saying we didn't have strength in depth but we do have a golden generation. Such an incisive and knowledgeable reply.
You think i give a rat's chuff what you think of my opinions? FACT I don't respect your knowledge whatsoever, nor your posting in general, you are the guy after all who stated that losing to Australia was nothing to worry about….. as long as we kept producing in the 6 Nations.

Really, put your dummy away, engage in the debate and allow people to have an opinion on a rugby forum that is different to your own, you are not the arbiter of what is wrong and right with Wales and nor am I. Unlike you i don't pretend to be

geez Maes...thought you would have bopped him one by now...is there a long standing feud between the clans perhaps?

Scratch...  on me.

How quickly the mighty fall eh?

Sir Warren of Gatland brings home the bacon with the Lions and is a welsh national hero. Two more defeats as Wales coach and suddenly he's yesterday's used fish and chip wrappings.

Perhaps a little perspective is required?

The difference between Wales and the lions is clearly what most sensible posters have been saying for a while. Wales are a fine team but lack depth. Wales had a few crucial players missing, just as Australia did in the lions series.

Calling for Gatlands head is really succumbing to the nonsense being bandied around about Wales having a fundamental non ability based weakness in facing SH opposition. The fact is that but for a slip, Australia may have won the lions series before that fatal third test and the landscape would look very different.

Fact is, it's very very frustratingly close for Wales, but they are consistently not quite good enough to win. It's about the players, their composure and skill sets, their fitness and their ability to execute.

All the coaching changes in the world are unlikely to solve that problem.

Can Wales beat the other 6N teams? Yes. But they're are just not as good as the SANZAR teams are.

Two of the three testswere similar to several Wales Oz matches, the third we know now was not helped by insiders, including Deans himself, knowing Deans had been ousted during the week of the final test.

Given that...this one was par for the course. And who other than Gats is likely to help Wales to a 3 peat?

Deans?

Taylorman wrote:geez Maes...thought you would have bopped him one by now...is there a long standing feud between the clans perhaps?

Kids these day eh...?

All I did was ask him what he thinks we should change...

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Only if he won't change - he deserves this six nations.

What game plan would be better?

Unleash the backs you have with the right combo of halfbacks.  Philips has to go.  Halfpenny is a great counter-attacker  Give North and Cuthbert - wo fine wings give 'em licence to attack.  The forwards are good enough to get a good share of the ball.  Make it count by scoring tries.  

You're absolutely right. Though some people are under the impression that if we had Roberts/JD2 starting we would have won. That's wrong, the game was lost at the breakdown again. And this defensive style gives the SH backs too much room to run. I thought Phillips time had come during that Lions tour but he's still in the team. If we're to move forward then we should have Rhodri Williams and Gareth Davies at 9.

Martyn Williams and Justin Marshall were talking about the difference in the game between NH and SH in the extra part of Scrum V. Marshall highlighted a confidence in SH teams, that is not apparent in the NH, to play the ball, phase after phase patiently waiting for an opportunity right up until the end of the game.

Wales were doing this well in the last RWC and we are not now. we turned over possession a few times leading to counterattacks and tries, fair play to Wales we turned over plenty of their ball and scored from some too. Wales need to control possession, learn to be patient and keep the ball.

Scratch wrote:Maesteg... engage in the debate and allow people to have an opinion on a rugby forum that is different to your own, you are not the arbiter of what is wrong and right with Wales and nor am I. Unlike you i don't pretend to be

Fair point.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Scratch wrote:Maesteg... engage in the debate and allow people to have an opinion on a rugby forum that is different to your own, you are not the arbiter of what is wrong and right with Wales and nor am I. Unlike you i don't pretend to be

Fair point.

Hardly... I only asked for him to give us his ideas on what we should do.

It's almost a RL mentality, maes.

The Folau try where he bumps off about 3 or 4 defenders in the space of 10-15m was a typical NRL play of his (and certain others).

It's how a decent portion of all tries are scored in the attacking quarter. It's all about confidence and ability... and patience in possession of the ball - there's no stopping the guy!

In terms of defence; the one-on-one RL tackling style is very advanced and can be applied to rugby with huge effectiveness. Same too for 2/3/4/5 player tackles.

Linebreaker wrote:It's almost a RL mentality, maes.

The Folau try where he bumps off about 3 or 4 defenders in the space of 10-15m was a typical NRL play of his (and certain others).
It's how a decent portion of all tries are scored in the attacking quarter. It's all about confidence and ability... and patience in possession of the ball - there's no stopping the guy!

In terms of defence; the one-on-one RL tackling style is very advanced and can be applied to rugby with huge effectiveness. Same too for 2/3/4/5 player tackles.

I agree, Folau made his try look easy, something he had done day in day out all his life.

The build up to some of the tries were the difference in the two teams.

Both Wales and Australia scored tries off turn over and counter attack. But Australia could maintain phase play with out making a crock decision for so much longer. Wales were getting itchy feet in the same scenario...!

League influence is an interesting point, the nature of the six tackle sequence in league applies pressure and concentration to an attack in a way we don't have in Union. In union theoretically you have endless plays as long as the player with the ball does not get turned over or spill the ball.

That's right. It has honed the level of sophistication required to break defences within 6 tackles. Lots of creativity, perfect execution/delivery... you only get one crack at it until you get the ball back.

Also has helped defences develop the ability to hold out intense attacks under pressure and stop players on a dime or defuse bombs.

Taylorman wrote:Two of the three testswere similar to several Wales Oz matches, the third we know now was not helped by insiders, including Deans himself, knowing Deans had been ousted during the week of the final test.

Given that...this one was par for the course. And who other than Gats is likely to help Wales to a 3 peat?

Deans?

Well I long ago predicted Deans would be the Welsh coach on my Kiwi Coach Shuffle thread, or whatever it was called. It should've been called that.

It was hugely unpopular at the time and I was called a WUM for posting it.

I actually had predicted the Lions would win the first two tests and lose the third one, as Quade Cooper returned by popular Aussie revolution over Deans. But I suppose having Deans know that he was already fired and the camp in disarray is probably semantically equivalent on the bigger scale.

You can almost see it unfolding now though. Disgruntled Wales don't win the historic 3rd in a row 6N title. In fact, perhaps they come 4th on points difference again. Gatland is summarily dismissed and Howley is placed as caretaker coach again. From that position almost any option in the world looks better, and it should be rememebered that Deans held on to the 2nd in the world spot throughout his reign. But moreso, there's something about Deans' highly systematic game plan, the multi-phase recycling and the shifting point of attack that might suit Wales in a way that it was too restrictive for Australia. We'd see less midfiled bash and more use of smaller guys - a return to the Shane Williams era perhaps.

So Deans in for Wales for his third crack at a RWC. Gatland back to NZ to possibly take Wellington from Mark Hammet?

just read on Walesonline , Wales play New Zealand , south Africa and Australia next autumn . please please warren and Sam dont say we should beat all 3  

Only three matches? Roger Lewis will be furious when he finds out!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Only three matches? Roger Lewis will be furious when he finds out!

Haha. Nah, it's four. Australia outside the window again  

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Only three matches? Roger Lewis will be furious when he finds out!

The fourth is usually confirmed towards the end of the season.

Lets hope that we aren't forced to play on of these three teams out of the IRB window again.

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Only three matches? Roger Lewis will be furious when he finds out!

Haha. Nah, it's four. Australia outside the window again  

He really doesn't give a flying fig for the regions, does he?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Only three matches? Roger Lewis will be furious when he finds out!

Haha. Nah, it's four. Australia outside the window again  

He really doesn't give a flying fig for the regions, does he?

Its not like he is surprising the regions announcing this international the night before...

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Only three matches? Roger Lewis will be furious when he finds out!

Haha. Nah, it's four. Australia outside the window again  

He really doesn't give a flying fig for the regions, does he?

Nope. Hopefully Gatland will keep up ignoring form east of Cardiff and we won't be too affected before our Heineken Cup game (or whatever it'll be called by then).

news for 4th test for Wales . they are from the planet krypton . gatland said we should be beating teams like this  

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:news for 4th  test for Wales . they are from the  planet krypton . gatland said we should be beating teams like this  

Well North will be stuffed then

lostinwales wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:news for 4th  test for Wales . they are from the  planet krypton . gatland said we should be beating teams like this  

Well North will be stuffed then

he could have played for them but decided to stick with his adopted country

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:news for 4th  test for Wales . they are from the  planet krypton . gatland said we should be beating teams like this  

Well North will be stuffed then

        he could have played for them but decided to stick with his adopted country

North doesnt seem to have an issue with Kryptonite any more... He is even above the law of the PRL...

Scratch wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Scratch wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

TJ wrote:He needs to change his attitude.  GatlandBall don't beat the best.  Good enough for 6Ns.  But not the top sides.  The players are available to do more.

So you would change the coach?

Who should we get?

What game plan would be better?

why don't you tell US maesteg, I'm listening…..or are you saying all is well in Cardiff?

I am getting tired of people spouting changes as though changes will make the world of difference when those same posters, like you, don't have anything in mind mate..!

Let's hear your opinions...????

Or are you to worried that your thoughts will be decried as pointless?

Maybe your ideas could save welsh rugby? We don't know until we hear them...! So come on. What should we do to improve welsh rugby? Who's in who's out?

What's the new game plan and why will we do better?

Maesteg I hope your little 606v2 tantrum has now ended. You are about as 'mafia' as one of my dogs farts. Loud, ripe but quickly forgotten.

Your posts are a galactic bore sometimes, you rattle your sabre like you are some rusty ageing Welsh Knight, here to protect the Welsh skirts from detractors who might just lift them up and have a good look underneath to see what is going on.

When you aren't spouting lines you got from the Coaches Guide on How to Handle the Press, you then spit your dummy when you read that not all Wales fans are as rabidly defensive about Wales as you are.

This is my thread, i asked for an honest debate about Gatland's position which is like a red rag to a maesteg, i called for change if he stuffs the 6 Nations then in you wade shouting the odds….you can't have change without saying what? Er yes you can. If Gatland stuffs the 6 Nations he should go, that is his own benchmark. I CAN SAY THAT without your permission and i already have on numerous threads, but you don't read that do you, you come on here shouting the odds like you own the place saying i can't do this or that. I regularly call for offload to return to our game, to fix the 10 issues by giving it Biggar, to stop utility substitutes because it wastes talent, to come up with another attack option than Bosh 12, to use the top 2 inches, to play Hook and North in the centre, to stop or match statements, to sack Sam, to remove Howley and possibly Edwards. All you can come up with is a petty dig at my saying we didn't have strength in depth but we do have a golden generation. Such an incisive and knowledgeable reply.
You think i give a rat's chuff what you think of my opinions? FACT I don't respect your knowledge whatsoever, nor your posting in general, you are the guy after all who stated that losing to Australia was nothing to worry about….. as long as we kept producing in the 6 Nations.

Really, put your dummy away, engage in the debate and allow people to have an opinion on a rugby forum that is different to your own, you are not the arbiter of what is wrong and right with Wales and nor am I. Unlike you i don't pretend to be

Just logged on and I haven't laughed so much for a while. You can't beat a bit of banter and apart from that you have hit the nail on the head Scratch well done.

Its a tough one. Obviously we are not as good as SANZAR but that doesnt mean we shouldnt occasionally win some games v them. The best team doesnt always win.
Even when we have been winning many have been critical of our game, it can be effective but is very one dimensional, do we need someone new to change our game up? On saturday we were missing Doc and JD2 so we changed our game from WarrenBall to GiveGeorgetheBall. That isnt good enough for an international team, sort of thing U9s do.
Warren has done some great things for the team, we have improved in many areas, but for me a 6 Nations win would not be enough.The top teams in 6 nations can all win it, depending on a bit of form and luck here and there. Of course id be happy, but a win playing the same way for me would not be progress.
I want to see us play a different game, or show that we can play differently when required (and sort out our kicking game). Imagine we played like we did in 05 with the fire power and discipline we have now. If we do this, then even if we dont win 6 nations i'd be happy and be optimistic for the future. If not then for me id say farewell Gats thanks and good luck.

Since 1953 Wales have beaten the Australians 8 times. 5 of those were before 1980.

We have beaten SA once and not beaten the All Blacks in all that time. We have fielded better, on a comparative world rugby (opposition at the time) basis, teams than the one we have now.

To blame our current coach for not doing better than many have done before in that regard is kind of silly.

The players expect to beat any team they face, they have that confidence. Changing a coaching team will not change that confidence or the likelihood of a win any more than hard work by the players.

The last few test matches vs top 3 SH opposition we have had some serious injury concerns, 3 or 4 players missing from individual positions forcing us to select players not ready for epic test match battles just yet.

The position we have been forced into regarding selection is good for building strength and depth in a variety of weakened positions but does us little good on the big day.

There were a number of our players last saturday who are not as good a player as their opposite number whether that is through talent or experience, that is something that does not fall at the coaches feet unless he refuses to address it. Something that Gatland can hardly be accused of.

What do we do going forward?

Re-asses, look at the mistakes and errors we are making and address them. Look at the positives and learn from them.

As I was trying to explain on another thread the other day, we may have lost four lineouts on our throw, but we stole two brilliantly. We have failed to be proactive in the defensive lineout since the late 80s.

As Matthew Rees said in the commentary at half time, toby Faletau's steal of Ozzie ball was unusual because normally in that position we wouldn't have even jumped for the ball.

maestegmafia wrote:The players expect to beat any team they face, they have that confidence.

I'm not sure if I believe that. They keep telling us they do, but they protest too much, methinks.

maestegmafia wrote:What do we do going forward?

Re-asses, look at the mistakes and errors we are making and address them. Look at the positives and learn from them.

But this is the ninth time we've lost to them using largely the same gameplan. What evidence is there that we've learnt any lessons at all?

reassess, even? although granted re-asses might be just as valid in this case.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The players expect to beat any team they face, they have that confidence.

I'm not sure if I believe that. They keep telling us they do, but they protest too much, methinks.

maestegmafia wrote:What do we do going forward?

Re-asses, look at the mistakes and errors we are making and address them. Look at the positives and learn from them.

But this is the ninth time we've lost to them using largely the same gameplan. What evidence is there that we've learnt any lessons at all?

We have lost to them a lot more than nine times mate. Prior to that nine times we had a good run at home, didn't lose to them in Cardiff for a few years. We can only try harder next time, hope that we have our best team available and that the ref doesn't make any glaring errors.

You know I meant nine times in a row.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You know I meant nine times in a row.

But would a change of coaching team take us forward. I personally doubt it. I think what we have is good and injury permitting, squad building permitted, training time allowed and availability guaranteed we have the team and the coaches to do better than we have recently done.

Warren Gatland was named "UK Coach of the Year" and "High-Performance Coach of the Year" at the UK Coaching Awards yesterday.

That is quite some recognition. Maybe sacking him for narrowly losing a game against the Ozzies is a little, tiny bit of a massive over-reaction...???

maestegmafia wrote:Warren Gatland was named "UK Coach of the Year" and "High-Performance Coach of the Year" at the UK Coaching Awards yesterday.

That is quite some recognition. Maybe sacking him for narrowly losing a game against the Ozzies is a little, tiny bit of a massive over-reaction...???

Just read the BBC article and mentions about him leading the Lions to victory and Wales' to their 2nd 6Ns title in a row. Wasn't Howley coach for that 2nd one? What he really did was lead the Lions to victory and return 2 for 2 in the AIs. Little overblown I think.

Good point about the Six Nations title.

maestegmafia wrote:Warren Gatland was named "UK Coach of the Year" and "High-Performance Coach of the Year" at the UK Coaching Awards yesterday.

That is quite some recognition. Maybe sacking him for narrowly losing a game against the Ozzies is a little, tiny bit of a massive over-reaction...???

    exactly . can't people remember when we had Gareth Jenkins . six wins out of twenty internationals . losing 62 - 5 to England and the worst was getting knocked out of world cup by fiji . 62 - 5 that's why the English posters want us to sack gatland. mind you in he draw with Australia

Don't most coaches only get the boot if they lose the faith of the players?

ebop wrote:Don't most coaches only get the boot if they lose the faith of the players?

I would say that the players are very happy with Gatland and his coaches. I think some posters are blaming loses on Gatland and tactics rather than injured players and not performing in certain areas.

Wales didn't have a good AI series, they had a worse one last year with similar injury problems and without Gatland.