George North can't make the grade at this level!

by san Tue 03 Dec 2013, 8:03 am

With George North being warned, by Jim Mallinder, he won’t walk straight back into the Northampton team despite his exploits for Wales.

It got me thinking that he is someone who appears to make more of an impact at international level than club rugby.

Why should this be so?
Obviously he should be surrounded by better quality team mates at international level, but then the standard should be a step up too, which would negate that.

There are plenty of very good club players haven’t quite cut it at international level, but is George North the opposite?

He has become something of an international phenomenon. Youngest try scorer for Wales, 10 international tries as a teenager etc..

Any other examples of players who make more impact in test rugby?

Obviously the internationals get the headlines and are by nature more eye-catching, but I’ve always expected a bit more from him at club level.

by HammerofThunor Tue 03 Dec 2013, 8:08 am

Not sure if this is true but...

For international players, they're in and out of e squad throughout the season. Don't have the same preseason as the rest of the team. It's his first year for Saints (didn't see many Scarlets games so won't comment) and he's done ok. A couple of moments of magic but generally settling in.

by san Tue 03 Dec 2013, 8:30 am

I was mostly thinking of his time at Scarlets, it is obviously early days at Northampton.

I would imagine Northampton signed him on the basis of his international exploits rather than club form with Scarlets.

by mckay1402 Tue 03 Dec 2013, 11:19 am

He played really well for scarlets so I'm not really sure what you're basing this on. He'll come good for saints don't worry

by munkian Tue 03 Dec 2013, 12:05 pm

He hasn't played badly for NH though has he ?

He scored a try in one game I saw and set up another out of nothing in the other game I watched

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 03 Dec 2013, 2:58 pm

To be honest his time at the Scarlets was bizarre.

He was on fire when he started, which was why he got called up, then he took knocks when with Wales. He seemed to get just enough game time to build his form back up before being off on international duty again, then rested/injured and the cycle continued. Also the back end of last season, with the Lions tour around the corner, it almost seemed like he decided that he was going to be a test lion, and that it was not worth him risking injury in the games leading up to the tour.

That said I also think that there is a bit of myth surrounding him playing better internationally than regionally too, as he did have some really outstanding games in the Scarlets shirt, but the noise generated by Scarlets fans online is nowhere near as loud as the noise generated by the welsh fans. So more people have seen his exploits in the welsh shirt, and as such more people say 'remember when he.......against Australia/Namibia etc' as opposed to "remember that try he scored against Treviso".

by kingjohn7 Tue 03 Dec 2013, 7:48 pm

Nonu apparently doesnt do very well at S15 level, think someone was saying that nobody wanted to sign him? International level though he is awesome. Maybe a motivation thing?

by Baggy42 Thu 05 Dec 2013, 9:02 am

I just don't understand why people think he is playing below par for saints?
quite simply he isn't. He has been very good.

he has made several substantial breaks from nothing and his defensive work has been excellent too. I have been impressed with his work at the breakdown too.

I haven't fully watched for this so I am not 100% sure but I think if people watched closely you will find that teams playing against him are having to commit more defenders out wide to counter his running threat, therefore leaving holes elsewhere on the pitch for his team mates to exploit.

Its similar to what Foden brings to the team, in that due to his effective broken field running, opposition teams had to kick less to him as the return run Foden wold do would break the first line of tackles and put saints on the front foot, therefore removing the kick as a viable option to use against Saints.

North will be doing exactly the same, you don't want to kick to him because he will run it back with interest. you don't want to over mark the centres because you sling a miss pass to North with a little space around the outside and you will get punished.

I believe that the arrival of North (coupled with hard work and improvement by Burrell) has led to Burrell's rise in the centres because saints are posing such a threat out wide and there is less traffic in the centres.

by munkian Thu 05 Dec 2013, 9:16 am

He was never going to be scoring tries for fun straight off the bat anway, I assume it takes a while to learn an entirley new gameplan

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 05 Dec 2013, 9:24 am

Baggy your right George does do tend to be almost a permenant dummy runner, just by being on the pick, and he does preoccupy defences without actually having to have the ball in hand or even near.

by Sin é Fri 06 Dec 2013, 12:46 am

George North has not scored a Heineken Cup try, which is fairly poor.

I always get the impression that at club level he is saving himself for Wales (like a lot of Welsh players). Cuthbert is the only one I think who seems to bother at club level.

1 try in 7 games for Northampton isn't great either.

by munkian Fri 06 Dec 2013, 9:19 am

Depends what style of game they play and how much ball he has had surely ?

If hes creating tries for other players by either drawing in defenders or creating them from nothing then hes doing his job

by Guest Fri 06 Dec 2013, 10:02 am

Sin é wrote:I always get the impression that at club level he is saving himself for Wales (like a lot of Welsh players). Cuthbert is the only one I think who seems to bother at club level.

This is pretty true, that a lot of players will seemingly not be available for their regions/clubs as much as Team Wales. From a Dragons point of view, Toby Faletau is very good at coming straight back into the fold and also trying his best.

by munkian Fri 06 Dec 2013, 10:06 am

Faletau and Lydiate always put in big shifts whether playing for Club or Country

The Irish tend to do the opposite and only play for their clubs

by Bathite Fri 06 Dec 2013, 10:24 am

Ma Nonu has to be the best example of club form and international form not matching up. His last year for the Hurricanes was terrible, with him dropped and accused of arguing with the coaching staff, then he went to the Blues, had another poor year and finally moved to the Highlanders, where they had one of their worst years in a long while. In fact the Highlanders let him go this year and no other club in NZ were keen to take him, so the NZRU had to step in to make sure he didn't go abroad, as they couldn't afford to lose him.

All that time he's been outstanding for the ABs, never letting them down, being a World Class performer on the international stage.

by bedfordwelsh Sat 07 Dec 2013, 7:42 am

Are people maybe expecting him to run in tries from everywhere every game? That doesn't tend to happen top wingers like strikers have lean spells to.

From the reports I have read he seems to be settling in quite well and thats what I think this first season will be all about settling in, in between International duties as well.

by doctor_grey Sat 07 Dec 2013, 8:37 am

As a Saints supporter, I think its fair to say North has been OK, but certainly not set the world on fire. He has created space for other players as the defenses have marked him. His ball retention has not been very good, the match v. Ospreys particularly so. His one try was a gimmee, with the ball sitting a few feet from the line and he just picked it up. On the other hand, he has some nice breaks and been generally sound in defense. Does keep the attack moving forward.

To sum up the first part of his time with Saints is not so easy.
Great? no.
Good? probably.
But he was signed for matches like today v. Leinster. He must have a big match for Saints to do well. Great players make plays. This is why he is here. Let's see.

by **rodders** Sat 07 Dec 2013, 8:44 pm

doctor_grey wrote:But he was signed for matches like today v. Leinster. He must have a big match for Saints to do well. Great players make plays. This is why he is here. Let's see.

Hope you guys kept the receipt then! Run

by Guest Sun 08 Dec 2013, 11:39 am

You know I was thinking exactly this watching the Northampton game yesterday. He didn't seem to have any impact at all and the Leinster players tackled him with relative ease - albeit there did *always* seem to be someone right on him giving him no space and it was always a different player. I think teams probably have a sub-gameplan for a player like North and Leinster's worked fine.

I imagine it's just him getting use to the gameplay and settling in. It's not just a one year contract, give him time.

by Guest Sun 08 Dec 2013, 8:31 pm

At 21 it's not like he's over the hill or at his peak. Still plenty of time to improve, although I'm sure his pay masters would prefer a return on their investment from the off. He's but a boy!

by munkian Mon 09 Dec 2013, 1:53 pm

Since when has a winger been able to have a great game when the rest of his team has had THAT bad a game and that little sustained position ? Burrell and North were the only Saints to look even remotely dangerous, some ludicrous comments on here

by Guest Mon 09 Dec 2013, 2:54 pm

Sin é wrote:George North has not scored a Heineken Cup try, which is fairly poor.

I always get the impression that at club level he is saving himself for Wales (like a lot of Welsh players). Cuthbert is the only one I think who seems to bother at club level.

1 try in 7 games for Northampton isn't great either.

Off the top of my head, 5 Welsh players who also bother at club level - Hibbard, Wyn Jones, Faletau, Biggar, Halfpenny. There are probably others but I can't be bothered to go on.

by munkian Mon 09 Dec 2013, 2:56 pm

Ryan Jones, Tipuric, Faletau, Coombes, Rees, Paul James etc etc

by Guest Mon 09 Dec 2013, 2:57 pm

optimist wrote:
Sin é wrote:George North has not scored a Heineken Cup try, which is fairly poor.

I always get the impression that at club level he is saving himself for Wales (like a lot of Welsh players). Cuthbert is the only one I think who seems to bother at club level.

1 try in 7 games for Northampton isn't great either.

Off the top of my head, 5 Welsh players who also bother at club level - Hibbard, Wyn Jones, Faletau, Biggar, Halfpenny. There are probably others but I can't be bothered to go on.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 10 Dec 2013, 9:01 pm

I also think Welsh players are fitter when they play for Wales. Way fitter. Well the 6 Nations and RWC anyway. That whole Poland freezer thing. I'm pretty sure they don't go to the freezers before the AI's.

by Guest Wed 11 Dec 2013, 10:30 am

Feckless Rogue wrote:I also think Welsh players are fitter when they play for Wales. Way fitter. Well the 6 Nations and RWC anyway. That whole Poland freezer thing. I'm pretty sure they don't go to the freezers before the AI's.

Think they have, but they also have some sort of facility in Cardiff now that they use (I'm sure).

by san Wed 11 Dec 2013, 11:16 am

The title of the post was tongue in cheek.

I am not slating George North at all.

I was merely conveying surprise that a player who is achieving/has achieved superstar status at international level due to his exploits does not appear to replicate that at club level.

He was a lions starter, would probably get into a lot of peoples World XV, but would he have got into a Rabo XV last year or a Jeff XV so far this year.

I know it is early days and he is young and he has done some good things at Northampton etc etc
Not knocking the player...just making an observation!

by Welshmushroom Wed 11 Dec 2013, 12:58 pm

Look its an interesting point. SS is right regarding North at the Scarlets. He was on fire with them before getting capped and being involved.

I actually think this syndrome affects most of our players (there are some exceptions) but once they become Wales international regulars the focus seems to be on performing for wales as a priority. Gatland is a little at fault here because if he purey picked on form players would have to start focusing on playing well for their clubs/provinces/regions first.

I understand why this syndrome is likely to occur though because when you playing against Australia in front of a packed MS and then you go back to playing Newcastle on a Friday night in front of 1 man and his dog, it cant motivate you the same way. They are still professional and get on with it and do what they need to.

Interestingly however I believe this works both ways. Look at Ireland for example. Based on international performances how many irish would make a world XV. Very few because as a whole Ireland have underperformed for years at international level. However, if you had to select a European Club/Province side, you would have a fair few in there because of how dominant they have been at League & European club level.

It boils down to where motivation lies. North didnt really want to leave the Scarlets and deep down part of him probably still wishes he was playing for them. One of the major drawbacks to bringing in players from outside of your academy is that there is a limit to which those players will go. That said usually the skill they bring outweighs the possibitly of underperformance.

by Welshmushroom Wed 11 Dec 2013, 12:59 pm

If you picked a Rabbo XV based on historic form Visser would be defo in the team. He's probably been the stand out winger in the Pro 12 over the last 3 seasons.

by rainbow-warrior Sun 15 Dec 2013, 5:42 am

I think he has proved he can Smile

by munkian Sun 15 Dec 2013, 11:31 am

North's Hampton

by glamorganalun Sun 05 Jan 2014, 9:20 pm

It is a team game, if he is not given the ball in space North is less likely to score, it may be a reflection of the way the team are playing.

by Bodie Wales Mon 10 Feb 2014, 12:59 pm

Sin é wrote:George North has not scored a Heineken Cup try, which is fairly poor.

I always get the impression that at club level he is saving himself for Wales (like a lot of Welsh players). Cuthbert is the only one I think who seems to bother at club level.

1 try in 7 games for Northampton isn't great either.

Hi reading through the posts on this thread and I have to say George North scored a very nice try against the Ospreys in a Heineken Cup game. I know cos I was there as an O's supporter.

I think when a foreign club buys a so-called super star the supporters can all to often expect a little too much from them. A perfect example here is Gavin Henson supporters where expecting him to run full length of the pitch tries every time he got the ball. When it did ant happened they got on his back, hence the poor guys poor reputation now. Are the Northampton supports going to do the same with George North? Lets hope not.

All to often with rugby it’s the off the ball work that goes un-noticed the players who do the dirty unseen work are the real heroes of the game not the flashy ones who score the tries. Next time you go to watch a game try not to get to dazzled by all the flashing lights and check out the guys in the trenches who’s unseen efforts win the game for real.

by butterfingers Mon 10 Feb 2014, 7:50 pm

This is a weird thread, pound for pound North is the best winger in the NH, easily. The only downside to signing such a great talent is that international duty will always be his priority, and if not from the nation he is playing in he couldn't possibly get up for games as well as he can for his own country.

Look at all the Welsh players playing abroad though, are any playing well? Hook has lost his place at Perp, Roberts and Lydiate have rarely played, Jenkins never got a game, it is a wonder that if even more Welsh play abroad they can expect their performances to drop throughout the season effecting their all important international duty.

by Bodie Wales Tue 11 Feb 2014, 8:48 am

butterfingers wrote:This is a weird thread, pound for pound North is the best winger in the NH, easily. The only downside to signing such a great talent is that international duty will always be his priority, and if not from the nation he is playing in he couldn't possibly get up for games as well as he can for his own country.

Look at all the Welsh players playing abroad though, are any playing well? Hook has lost his place at Perp, Roberts and Lydiate have rarely played, Jenkins never got a game, it is a wonder that if even more Welsh play abroad they can expect their performances to drop throughout the season effecting their all important international duty.

I would be interested to see where you are getting this information.

Edit: I can not post the web links but if you google Mike Phillips, Jamie Roberts, Dan Lydiate or James Hook on the Wales Online web site you'll see they look to be doing ok. James hook even got awarded supporters player of the year last year.

Where are you getting this information from Butterfingers?

by geoff998rugby Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:44 pm

I would not say any of those 4 is playing that well this year and Dan Lydiate has looked seriously out of sorts.

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 19 Feb 2014, 3:58 pm

Pound for Pound North is definitely not the best winger in the NH, he has too many pounds to spread about.

I think that he has also had problems with Saints in that the 13 position has been a big problem for them this year due to injuries. He rarely plays with the same guy inside him two games in row. Now Pisi is back things should change , I hope so anyway.

I agree with the good doctor, he has been OK or slightly better but needs to get used to the Saints method of playing and the players around him. With Foden back now, he will get a lot of breaks he can latch onto, if he can keep up with him that is.

by Seagultaf Sun 02 Mar 2014, 4:02 pm

Bodie Wales wrote:
butterfingers wrote:This is a weird thread, pound for pound North is the best winger in the NH, easily. The only downside to signing such a great talent is that international duty will always be his priority, and if not from the nation he is playing in he couldn't possibly get up for games as well as he can for his own country.

Look at all the Welsh players playing abroad though, are any playing well? Hook has lost his place at Perp, Roberts and Lydiate have rarely played, Jenkins never got a game, it is a wonder that if even more Welsh play abroad they can expect their performances to drop throughout the season effecting their all important international duty.

I would be interested to see where you are getting this information.

Edit: I can not post the web links but if you google Mike Phillips, Jamie Roberts, Dan Lydiate or James Hook on the Wales Online web site you'll see they look to be doing ok. James hook even got awarded supporters player of the year last year.

Where are you getting this information from Butterfingers?

Mike Phillips was sacked by his club this season, Lydiate and Roberts are playing for a struggling Racing side and Hook has gone from supporters player of the season to third choice 10 (behind Lopez and Tommy Alan)!

by englandglory4ever Mon 03 Mar 2014, 10:08 am

Welsh players don't have to try too hard for their clubs. The depth in wales is relatively thin so being selected for the national side is straight forward. They just need to keep their nose clean and injury free and they walk in to the national squad.

by fa0019 Mon 03 Mar 2014, 3:20 pm

This is what coaches often say but don't mean. Good enough for your country but not for this club etc.

Just to motivate them, bring them down to normality and praise the people they will drop down back to the reserves.

by Bodie Wales Sun 09 Mar 2014, 8:47 am

Well all I can say to all the none fans of Mr G North out there is simply this. The Ospreys would love to have him and I think that goes for any other rugby team out there. Give the guy a break for pitty sake it has been said on the grape vine that he did not want to go in the first place.

Let us for a moment not forget you can lead a horse to water but you can not take it to a disco.

by nobbled Sun 09 Mar 2014, 7:46 pm

Yeah George is rubbish. Definitely drop him.

Please.

Can we have him please? Fingers Crossed

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