Should The Regions Tell The WRU To Shove The PA & Join The Jeff?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 13:46

Welsh clubs look for Premiership future claims Wray wrote:Saracens boss Nigel Wray claims the Welsh regions want to join the English Premiership to secure their long-term future.

The four regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets - have been at loggerheads with the WRU for some time and Wray has told the Rugby Paper that they are looking east for their best hope.

"They'd love to play in the Aviva Premiership and we'd love it too," Wray said. "English and Welsh rugby has an enormous history, a rich culture of big club matches. What could be better than the restoration of the traditional fixtures, guaranteeing massive matches of real importance?

"We play each other anyway in the LV=Cup so why not make the fixtures really meaningful? An enlarged Aviva Premiership can be created with no extra fixtures to be squeezed into the calendar. It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition.

"There are fantastic old rivalries there and games would sell-out. Games like Leicester v Cardiff and Scarlets v Northampton would have real bite and meaning, which would appeal to the customers who often get forgotten in all of this.

"Bring in the Welsh, go to 16 teams and play 30 games plus the play-offs. You'd have to agree on promotion and relegation but that's not too difficult, so let's move forward and give our customers meaningful games."

The four regions have been given until the end of December to agree a new deal with the WRU. If they do not then they face an uncertain future, all the more so with this week's Heineken Cup news.

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/207777.html#uSiW3b7Qz9z2MrTW.99

There have been various posts on numerous supporters forums claiming that it may be in the regions, and welsh supporters, best interests to tell the WRU to take their Participation agreement and place it in a very specific orifice. Now that Wray has come out and said that he believes the regions would be welcomed into the Aviva, some fans are wondering if not only would it help the regions to keep hold of their stars, but it would also help to boost the regional attendances, because we would get more away supporters coming in etc etc.

Seeing as this has hi-jacked other threads I thought I would set up this thread to try and keep it all in one place.

by geoff998rugby Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 13:53

If memory serves me correct the IRB have said they would block such a move.

In addition the offer, in the past, as opposed to Wray's statements, is 2 in the Premership and 2 in the Championship.

Osprey v Gloucester and Scarlets v Leicester sound good
not sure Blues v Ealing Trailfinders or Dragons v Jersey have quiet the same appeal

by doctornickolas Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 13:59

I think the regions could do that if they wanted to. But surely they could not expect to get the £6m subsidy the WRU give to them, or to pay for their academies like they do at present.

Also surely they could not expect to be Wales representatives in any future Euro cup.

The regions want to go off any do their own thing, Sign as many foreigners as they would like and seem to have a current policy that having current Welsh internationals is a bad thing. If that's the way they see it then fine but don't they can't expect to get any funding from the WRU to pay NWQ salaries. Where is the benefit to the WRU of doing that??

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:03

Dr Nick - the benefit for the WRU would be that they would still have a side to play in the game they have scheduled for Aus next year. Because IF the regions did show them the finger, then the union would not have access to any of the internationals contracted to the regions or to the Jeff sides. So they would be only be able to play against Aus with Welsh Prem players, oh and George North

by QuickBall Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:07

I'd be against such a move, and would stop supporting the Ospreys.

A week in week out game against opposition from across the bridge would get old fast, the history/rivalry between certain teams in my opinion will become diluted. Each team don't play each other every year, so when they do play when decided in a draw, there's something more meaningful to play for.

Besides if they jump into bed with the Aviva, would i be correct in assuming they'd fall under the umbrella of the RFU? Which means they effectively become English clubs creating players for English teams. When that happens, the professional game in Wales dies a sad death for money.

WRU then finds itself not having to pay the 4/4.5 mil (?) to fund these teams, while still having access to the internationals, minus the extra AI game. Sure, the WRU could do this for a few years, pay off the stadium debt then just start again, learning the lessons of the past.

Thing is would such a move cause more problems than good for the regions & rugby in Wales? Wouldn't they (regions) be relying on current fans/supporters staying, hoping that regional support is greater than national game (which i doubt)?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:15

QuickBall wrote:I'd be against such a move, and would stop supporting the Ospreys.

A week in week out game against opposition from across the bridge would get old fast, the history/rivalry between certain teams in my opinion will become diluted. Each team don't play each other every year, so when they do play when decided in a draw, there's something more meaningful to play for.

Besides if they jump into bed with the Aviva, would i be correct in assuming they'd fall under the umbrella of the RFU? Which means they effectively become English clubs creating players for English teams.

Are Swansea and Cardiff City English clubs?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:18

LP don't forget Newport County, their English too Whistle

by QuickBall Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:20

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:...
Are Swansea and Cardiff City English clubs?

This is rugby not football, and there is in my opinion a far greater support for rugby within the general public than football.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:23

Of course it's rugby not football. My point is that a club / region doesn't necessarily become English just because it plays in an English league. (Although technically Wales is part of England, but that's another matter.)

by Intotouch Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:28

I don't see how this option is so great. Two teams in the premiership and two below means that there would probably be a huge gap in interest and income between each. Currently the region's teams cannot be relegated, and although they may not great quantities of fans at their matches how much better would it be when they have to play against lower tier English sides? How many of these rivalries are that interesting to the fans?

If these rivalries are so interesting then surely the l=v cup would already have some sell-out fixtures on a regular basis.

The main reason I could see the regions going for this would be for power, freedom, control. I don't see that they would be richer or in the future more successful because of it. Two of them might. The other two? Good luck.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:28

I have done a quick survey of opinion where I work over lunch. In general about 2 in 20 are regular regional attendees, about another 3 watch the Rabo week in week out on tv, about 5 more watch Scrum V regularly. Then there are about 8 regular international attendees, and the rest of us watch internationals on tv regularly. When I mentioned the regions going to the Aviva, there were more saying that they would be likely to go to games, and more that said they would watch it on the box as the games would be better than the 'rabo dross'. Now I know that what people say over lunch break and what they actually do in reality may be different, but it would seem there are international-only fans that may end up being won over to the regions (as well as internationals) if the regions did jump ship.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:28

Jaysis lads how focked is Welsh Rugby?

Already the regions have issues with bodies through the turnstiles. Due in part to some people never having bought into the regions to begin with.

Some people would rather support the Welsh premiership.

The regions have issues with the WRU and visa versa. I'm sure there is blame on both sides there.

So among the options are.

1 Wru disband the regions and make new or changed ones. (Then there would be another layer of unhappiness between "New region" fans and "Old region" fans)

2 Regions break away and become "English" (Can't believe they are even considering this one. It's mental Ted)

3 Regions and WRU try and mend a few fences and work together under the status quo. (Sounds hard, sounds pie in the sky, but look at the alternatives)

There does not seem to be a way forward that would please everyone.

However are the regions not tied to the Rabo for 2.5 more seasons?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:32

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Are the regions not tied to the Rabo for 2.5 more seasons?

Or is it that the WRU is tied to the Rabo and obliged to provide four teams?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:32

Jen - the regions are not tied to the Rabo, the WRU are. The regions have been told to sign up to the same deal (same cash, same conditions) as they did back before (back in 2005 or 2007 ish, not too sure now), or to no long be allowed to play rugby. The WRU would then need to find four teams to put into the Rabo from else where, whether it be Ponty, Carmarthen Quins, Llandovery and Cross Keys (top four welsh prem sides) or total new entities.

by Intotouch Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:33

One other thing. The English are making overtures to the Welsh now that they've snookered themselves and can no longer play in the h-cup. What they're willing to offer Welsh regions now may differ drastically to what they'll offer in four years time when they don't need them.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:34

Intotouch wrote:One other thing. The English are making overtures to the Welsh now that they've snookered themselves and can no longer play in the h-cup. What they're willing to offer Welsh regions now may differ drastically to what they'll offer in four years time when they don't need them.

Too true, but the that would be forward thinking, and that is punishable by death in Welsh rugby circles.

by Welshmushroom Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:34

Wray clearly has been smoking crack again. Not really going to happen.

For starters can you see the PRL splitting out the money they already have to an additional 4 teams. there would be outcry from sides like Worcester, London Irish etc.

Bottom line I think Wray knows his beloved Saracens wont be selling out their stadium with some of the games on offer in the Aviva. Bottom line its hard to market your home games to fans when you get some of the teams that participate in the Aviva. In his eyes he's thinking the Welsh/English draw will create better opportunities.

I cant see this happening. Besides if anything is clear at the moment is the Irish will provide more of a challenging league than the English will.

by QuickBall Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:41

My point is, by joining the Aviva, they are no longer part of the WRU, and would (i assume) need to join the RFU to be allowed entry to the Aviva & below. Then they'd be required to follow the line as every other club that plays in the Aviva & below leagues. Would you imagine that the other clubs would look favorably on the new four if they didn't have to follow the same rules as them regarding eligible players etc? It would open a door that I'm sure the PRL would like to avoid, regarding teams simply buying/fielding as many NEQ players they'd like.

(Swansea & Cardiff both represent England in Europe, not Wales, so technically, they are English clubs in the eyes of an European competition, but that's a different game & story)

by beshocked Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 14:45

QuickBall wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:...
Are Swansea and Cardiff City English clubs?
This is rugby not football, and there is in my opinion a far greater support for rugby within the general public than football.

Perhaps that's true but Swansea and Cardiff are far bigger than the Welsh regions. There's no doubt they have benefitted from being in the English system. It's difficult to say whether the Welsh regions could have similar success. Losing star players to France and England makes Welsh regions less attractive.

by geoff998rugby Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 15:00

Swansea and Cardiff are bigger than the regions but 2 points:

1 - will that be true when they are relegated. I say that deliberately - only about 8 clubs will not get relegated sometine in the next 1 to 8 years.

2 - When you add up attendance at the Welsh league games more people go to rugby than soccer

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 15:10

Geoff, to answer you points

1) Yes they will. Cardiff and Swansea are essentially regional football teams. The 'super swans', are supported by most of the Scarlets/Ospreys region. You even hear people in PYS who call the Liberty the Library (when it comes to rugby) due to lack of atmosphere, talking about going to the Liberty (not Library) to watch the Swans play. And I believe it is a similar situation with the Bluebirds too.

2) To compare attendances of domestic sport, I think you would need to compare the League of Wales (Football) attendances to those of the Welsh Premiership (Rugby), and I doubt there are too many differences, bar the fact that the League Of Wales teams can get into a European tournament.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 15:16

From The Rugby Paper today.....

"The Welsh quartet – Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets – are agonising over whether to succumb to WRU threats and sign a new agreement by the end of this month or attempt to go their own way."

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/english-rugby-premiership/12838/now-welsh-regions-can-join-the-aviva-premiership-says-nigel-wray/

by quinsforever Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 15:46

Nigel Wray:

"Come on in boys, the water's blydi lovely, mun. We'll send your man Lewis a couple of these snazzy flags we've got, a cheerleader, an elvis costume and a season ticket and we're sure to win him over."

by HammerofThunor Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:01

Ok, for a start, this is just Wray saying this, not the PRL. And he's been saying it for ages. My few points.

1) A ring-fenced Anglo-Welsh (or Wanglo) league WOULD (almost certainly) be very popular on both sides of the boarder.

2) The RFU are against ring-fencing (as are the PRL officially but all the clubs want it pretty much, as long as they're inside the fence)

3) This adds the problem of relegation and the regions. Would they be exempt? Or could they be relegated? What about a two tier professional league structure? 20 English, 4 Welsh. Promotion and relegation between the two. Massive organisational change that would take a long time to sort out.

4) The regions cannot join the RFU. They're tied by geographical location by the IRB regulations. To break away they would have to go against the IRB and the RFU (or PRL) wouldn't do this.

5) It could only happen with the WRU's approval. I think they would potentially jump at the chance but it would probably require them giving the new PRL (including the regions) the same powers as the RFU does now. It would also complicate the delicate negotiations between club and union that already exist.

As someone who's main interest is English rugby but who got into rugby through the Ospreys I would love it personally. I just can't see it practically working.

Also, it would impact on Irish, Scottish and Italy rugby massively and potentially cause problems with the 6 Nations.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:02

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysis lads how focked is Welsh Rugby?

Already the regions have issues with bodies through the turnstiles. Due in part to some people never having bought into the regions to begin with.

Some people would rather support the Welsh premiership.

The regions have issues with the WRU and visa versa. I'm sure there is blame on both sides there.

So among the options are.

1 Wru disband the regions and make new or changed ones. (Then there would be another layer of unhappiness between "New region" fans and "Old region" fans)

2 Regions break away and become "English" (Can't believe they are even considering this one. It's mental Ted)

3 Regions and WRU try and mend a few fences and work together under the status quo. (Sounds hard, sounds pie in the sky, but look at the alternatives)

There does not seem to be a way forward that would please everyone.

However are the regions not tied to the Rabo for 2.5 more seasons?

Point 3 for me.

by Jhamer25 Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:07

Either alternative we look at htere is an issue and a negatuve. Either choice is a risk I say, would a move to the Aviva be bad. Hell no it would imprve the ugby playerd at our regions, but what would happen to T.V deals, would the BBC still be allowed to televice the regions mathes. Rugby has gone fr to politcal and it's ruining club rugby.

I just hope something can be done before the region game go's into melt down, which looks very likely in current circumstances. I can guarantee a lot of change this/ change that if they were going to sign a new agreement with the WRU (if it happens).
Also what would happen to the Rabo, the Irish and Scots will be left out to dry in the dire league. Then again we have to do whats best for us, not them; we don' have 5 Heineken Cups to go on about in Wales, Ireland tams do good no matter what

by Chunky Norwich Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:08

Yes. Aviva Prem all the way.

Screw the WRU, they've taken the mick out of the regions for far too long. Time to tell Roger where to go.

by Casartelli Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:21

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysis lads how focked is Welsh Rugby?.........

That pretty much sums up the administrative side of things.

by Allty Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:25

[quote="QuickBall"][quote="Luckless Pedestrian"]...
Are Swansea and Cardiff City English clubs? [/quote]This is rugby not football, and there is [b]in my opinion[/b] a far greater support for rugby within the general public than football.
[/quote]

Sadly QB that is not the case these days. Football has far more teams playing Sunday league, Village clubs, The only support that is holding its own is the National games. The Swans and Cardiff regularly play in front of crowds as big as the AI series.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:26

Jhamer25 wrote:Either alternative we look at htere is an issue and a negatuve. Either choice is a risk I say, would a move to the Aviva be bad. Hell no it would imprve the ugby playerd at our regions, but what would happen to T.V deals, would the BBC still be allowed to televice the regions mathes. Rugby has gone fr to politcal and it's ruining club rugby.

I just hope something can be done before the region game go's into melt down, which looks very likely in current circumstances. I can guarantee a lot of change this/ change that if they were going to sign a new agreement with the WRU (if it happens).
Also what would happen to the Rabo, the Irish and Scots will be left out to dry in the dire league. Then again we have to do whats best for us, not them; we don' have 5 Heineken Cups to go on about in Wales, Ireland tams do good no matter what

One reason why the current PA needs revising.

by beshocked Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:51

quinsforever wrote:Nigel Wray:

"Come on in boys, the water's blydi lovely, mun. We'll send your man Lewis a couple of these snazzy flags we've got, a cheerleader, an elvis costume and a season ticket and we're sure to win him over."

Quinsforever disappointed by this snide comment from you. Expect better.

by quinsforever Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 16:55

beshocked wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Nigel Wray:

"Come on in boys, the water's blydi lovely, mun. We'll send your man Lewis a couple of these snazzy flags we've got, a cheerleader, an elvis costume and a season ticket and we're sure to win him over."
Quinsforever disappointed by this snide comment from you. Expect better.

was just having a bit of fun, beshocked. was highlighting the irony of the prl's most commercial owner trying to get the union's most commercial boss onside by sharing some of his trade secrets. i love that wray is trying lots of new things. we all need to be able to laugh at ourselves and our executives every once in a while. Hug

by maestegmafia Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 17:05

I don't want this to happen, if the prem and regions want this then make the lv= competition more relevant not just an evermore pointless training comp.

I also think this is unlikely to happen due to a number of reasons. It is not the first time that Nigel Gray has stood atop a soap box talking absolute BS. He was likely the bloke that told Paul Ackford that the PRL want to take over English rugby.

The PRL rule that teams in the prem need to have a quota of English players.

The IRB will not authorise the welsh regions moving without WRU support. The IRB Recognise the WRU as their governing body due to their geography.

The PRL will not be able to afford to fund the four Welsh regions.

by beshocked Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 17:11

I am sorry Quinsforever it's just I know a lot of rugby fans look down at Saracens - as not a "proper" club, a team with a "plastic pitch", crass and rude using cheap gimmicks, South African,greedy, commercially driven, criticised for poor attendances, a mouthy CEO and Chairman,boring, oh and of course breaking the salary cap.

Of course some of the criticism is warranted but it makes me a bit spiky. I apologise.

Oh and I doubt Wray would have come up with any of that, more like the workings of our quirky CEO, Edward Griffiths.

Wray has been asked a question by the media. Of course he's going to answer. We don't know what other representatives of clubs think. Would be nice to get a Quins executive viewpoint or a Gloucester one.

Instead the usual suspects seem to be Wheeler,Craig and Wray.

by quinsforever Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 17:14

maestegmafia wrote:I don't want this to happen, if the prem and regions want this then make the lv= competition more relevant not just an evermore pointless training comp.

I also think this is unlikely to happen due to a number of reasons. It is not the first time that Nigel Gray has stood atop a soap box talking absolute BS. He was likely the bloke that told Paul Ackford that the PRL want to take over English rugby.

The PRL rule that teams in the prem need to have a quota of English players. SOLVABLE EASILY

The IRB will not authorise the welsh regions moving without WRU support. TRUE. The IRB Recognise the WRU as their governing body due to their geography. TRUE, BUT I DID READ ON A WELSH FORUM THAT IF THESE CLUBS PLAYED IN THE AP THEY COULD SWITCH THEIR UNION ALLEGIANCE FROM A SUPERVISORY PERSPECTIVE TO THE RFU. IS EXACTLY ANALOGOUS TO SWANSEA AND CARDIFF IN THE FOOTIE LEAGUE. THEY WOULD LOSE ALL THE WRU MONEY THOUGH AND ITS NOT CLEAR WHY RFU WOULD GIVE THEM ANY FOR PLAYER RELEASE UNLESS THEY HAVE ENG PLAYERS.

The PRL will not be able to afford to fund the four Welsh regions. NOT CURRENTLY NO. BUT A 16 TEAM AP WOULD BE WORTH POTENTIALLY A LOT MORE OVERALL, BUT PROBABLY NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF WRU FUNDING THAT THE WELSH REGIONS WOULD FOREGO. LOTS OF HARD-TO-KNOWS ABOUT THIS ONE.

by quinsforever Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 17:17

beshocked wrote:I am sorry Quinsforever it's just I know a lot of rugby fans look down at Saracens - as not a "proper" club, a team with a "plastic pitch", crass and rude using cheap gimmicks, South African,greedy, commercially driven, criticised for poor attendances, a mouthy CEO and Chairman,boring, oh and of course breaking the salary cap.

Of course some of the criticism is warranted but it makes me a bit spiky. I apologise.

Oh and I doubt Wray would have come up with any of that, more like the workings of our quirky CEO, Edward Griffiths.

Wray has been asked a question by the media. Of course he's going to answer. We don't know what other representatives of clubs think. Would be nice to get a Quins executive viewpoint or a Gloucester one.

Instead the usual suspects seem to be Wheeler,Craig and Wray.

No worries beshocked. my favourite match of the year so far is unquestionably sarries vs toulouse at wembley. i'm a believer in shaking things up and asking the big questions.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 17:30

There are no minimum EQ quotas in the AP. The RFU offer financial incentives for clubs that average a number of EQ players over the course of a season, pay for international player release and for a certain number of EQ players under 24 to be fielded. These are not particularly large sums of money. The RFU cannot impose quotas as a) It's illegal under EU law and B) because they can't force a gentleman's agreement as they don't have any control over the PRLs revenue streams.

by maestegmafia Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 21:22

Sorry I was under the impression that the rule was that 15 of players in the match day squad of 23 always have to be England qualified?

This was brought to my attention when it was discussed that, as a member of the WRU, London Welsh could be utilised for the use of blooding welsh talent.

by quinsforever Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 22:30

maestegmafia wrote:Sorry I was under the impression that the rule was that 15 of players in the match day squad of 23 always have to be England qualified?

This was brought to my attention when it was discussed that, as a member of the WRU, London Welsh could be utilised for the use of blooding welsh talent.

are london welsh an WRu member? interesting, didnt know that if so. are they members of WRU and RFU, or just WRU? would imply that the welsh regions can be supervised by RFU without it being a cross border competition, if london welsh can do the same

by Totalflanker Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 22:59

Trying to keep up with the threads - just wrote something similar on the European thread. For me IRB are not likely to sanction as it fecks the Irish, Scots and Italians - not enough teams left for a RABO.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 23:13

Maes, you need to average that if you want to qualify for the hand out from the RFU. Hence why Sale sent out an almost completely EQ team on the last game of the season the other year. If you average 15 EQ out of 23 then the RFU give you a nice financial reward. Same as if you give 8 EQ players under the age of 24 so many games in a season then they give you something like 30k per player. Incentives as otherwise another court case which they'd lose.

by quinsforever Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 23:13

totalflanker, while i have sympathy for this view, the IRB would absolutely not get involved in this if the WRU and RFU approved. Never. Their remit is nothing to do with protecting the interests of any one union over another. their remit is promotion of the game, and if one union thinks its interests are best served by jumping into bed with another unions teams in a league, well there is precisely zero that the IRB would, could or should do about it.

it would certainly hurt the celtic league, but lets be honest, its a flawed commercial concept, so inevitably somebody is going to leave if they get a better offer. and we are not in the amateur era any longer. even Lapasset recognises that now. see post on euro thread translation of a Q&A he did in the last 2 days.

by Pot Hale Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 23:31

Totalflanker wrote:Trying to keep up with the threads - just wrote something similar on the European thread. For me IRB are not likely to sanction as it fecks the Irish, Scots and Italians - not enough teams left for a RABO.

Could be very handy if the Welsh regions depart. In response, ask some of the others to come over to the dark side, and play P12 rugby. London Scottish, London Welsh, couple of French teams - Camou will sort it out….. Biarritz need to be top dog again - somewhere.

by doctor_grey Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 1:00

I hope the notion of the Welsh Regions joining the Premiership is just hot air. The Celtic League is the perfect partner for the Premiership and the Top 14. 3 Leagues, roughly equal number of teams, playing separately and then together in a special tournament. It absolutely makes sense. Otherwise we go back to the melange we had before. And the business side of Rugby can't support that. Clearly, it is the right way forward outside of one big Euro League with conferences/divisions like the NFL (which ain't happening in our lifetimes).

To me the fundamental problem is the economics of the situation are out of balance. All teams/clubs/franchises/regions need more revenue and roughly equivalent potential to spend. This is complicated by many things, but the biggest problem is ensuring the sport grows in all nations. If Rugby can get anything right, this is what is necessary to address.

by Standulstermen Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 1:15

Am I correct in assuming that there is a decent amount of money in welsh rugby but the the WRU are sinking into paying of the millenium stadium early?

by quinsforever Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 1:19

doctor_grey wrote:I hope the notion of the Welsh Regions joining the Premiership is just hot air. The Celtic League is the perfect partner for the Premiership and the Top 14. 3 Leagues, roughly equal number of teams, playing separately and then together in a special tournament. It absolutely makes sense. Otherwise we go back to the melange we had before. And the business side of Rugby can't support that. Clearly, it is the right way forward outside of one big Euro League with conferences/divisions like the NFL (which ain't happening in our lifetimes).

To me the fundamental problem is the economics of the situation are out of balance. All teams/clubs/franchises/regions need more revenue and roughly equivalent potential to spend. This is complicated by many things, but the biggest problem is ensuring the sport grows in all nations. If Rugby can get anything right, this is what is necessary to address.

doc, this is just never going to happen. everyone has different, and irreconcilable motivations. The NH unions are bedfellows by virtue of the 6N, but PRL and LNR clubs are pulling in their own direction, and certainly have zippo interest in subsidising (which is clearly the logical implication of your point) club sides in small nations, which in turn are owned by and viewed as testing and proving grounds for their national teams.

it's a pigs breakfast, and is only going to get messier as PRL and LNR strike bigger and bigger commercial deals with broadcasters.

i have the answer Smile

, but no-one's going to like it...and i'm not sharing as its just going to set off endless circular argument

by doctor_grey Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 2:03

No truer words have been spoken than calling this a pig's breakfast. Absolutely spot on.

I agree I am probably spitting into the wind. But the reality is Rugby is still an amateur sport in many ways.
Small, myopic, afraid of real change. And lacking any clear vision.

Following the soccer route is the route of death. It would prevent any real growth outside the English, French, South African and Kiwi core. Many things can be done short of actual subsidies. Cohesive Marketing across UK and Europe, a true inclusive big tv contract covering everything (or divided up strategically as done by the NFL) which would pull in more money, more big events like the Twickenham days (Leinster-Northampton in the Aviva, for example), and so on. With a little creativity we market to each other and to the outside of the Rugby core. a lot of revenue is there for the taking, if people have a little courage.

But what do I know?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 10:51

I have read elsewhere, that there are some serious allegations about players being told that signing for the regions would not be a wise move if they are wanting to prolong their career. IF there is any truth in these allegations then I fear it is game over already, so it may not be a case of the regions saying shove it and join the Jeff, and more or a case of the regions knowing where they are not wanted and having to join the Jeff.

by doctor_grey Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 11:18

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I have read elsewhere, that there are some serious allegations about players being told that signing for the regions would not be a wise move if they are wanting to prolong their career. IF there is any truth in these allegations then I fear it is game over already, so it may not be a case of the regions saying shove it and join the Jeff, and more or a case of the regions knowing where they are not wanted and having to join the Jeff.

If true, that would be royally effed up. Where would that kind of bitchy whispers come from?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 11:24

Dr Grey, started off with comments from Dr. Gwyn Jones on a radio interview where he said "What I think the Union want to do...and this is my idea...is they've to all intents and purposes given up on this generation of players and accept that many of them will go, and in the meantime they'll wait for the regions to get so weak financially that the Union can come in, take everything over, cut the number of teams to three or even two, and fund the two teams themselves. So everybody will be contracted to the Union and they will control everything. And that's how I think that they see the future. I don't know if that's true, but everything that's happening suggests the Union are happy to see the regions die." And then it has seemed to escalate from there. Not sure how it got to the union actively looking to persuade players to move on, but that is the level that the accusations have got to. But they are purely speculation, rumour, and accusations, from what I can gather, as I have not seen any sold facts or figures provided, as of yet anyway.

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