Should The Regions Tell The WRU To Shove The PA & Join The Jeff?

First topic message reminder :

Welsh clubs look for Premiership future claims Wray wrote:Saracens boss Nigel Wray claims the Welsh regions want to join the English Premiership to secure their long-term future.


The four regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets - have been at loggerheads with the WRU for some time and Wray has told the Rugby Paper that they are looking east for their best hope.

"They'd love to play in the Aviva Premiership and we'd love it too," Wray said. "English and Welsh rugby has an enormous history, a rich culture of big club matches. What could be better than the restoration of the traditional fixtures, guaranteeing massive matches of real importance?

"We play each other anyway in the LV=Cup so why not make the fixtures really meaningful? An enlarged Aviva Premiership can be created with no extra fixtures to be squeezed into the calendar. It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition.

"There are fantastic old rivalries there and games would sell-out. Games like Leicester v Cardiff and Scarlets v Northampton would have real bite and meaning, which would appeal to the customers who often get forgotten in all of this.

"Bring in the Welsh, go to 16 teams and play 30 games plus the play-offs. You'd have to agree on promotion and relegation but that's not too difficult, so let's move forward and give our customers meaningful games."

The four regions have been given until the end of December to agree a new deal with the WRU. If they do not then they face an uncertain future, all the more so with this week's Heineken Cup news.

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/207777.html#uSiW3b7Qz9z2MrTW.99

There have been various posts on numerous supporters forums claiming that it may be in the regions, and welsh supporters, best interests to tell the WRU to take their Participation agreement and place it in a very specific orifice. Now that Wray has come out and said that he believes the regions would be welcomed into the Aviva, some fans are wondering if not only would it help the regions to keep hold of their stars, but it would also help to boost the regional attendances, because we would get more away supporters coming in etc etc.

Seeing as this has hi-jacked other threads I thought I would set up this thread to try and keep it all in one place.

quinsforever wrote:the reality is that you can't just copy the model someone else has and expect it to work. the irish provincial structure has been around for ages. real fanbases. this is absolutely critical to being able to compete in a professional club tournament. IMO you need 3 things:

- big home crowds (money and helping get the victory, noisy home crowds intimidate players and refs - internet FACT)
- good, fair, sensible commercial and logistical relationship with the Union
- pride, which usually comes from history, tradition, nationality and success

if the WRU let the regions implode, they are going to have to replace them with something, and whatever they put in place will fail the first and third criteria i think are important. recipe for even greater failure than the current setup for me.

This is a bit of a myth about the provinces. Outside of when they faced touring international sides no one cared about them. The inter-pro's were held in front of tiny crowds and the fanbase was in the AIL, the clubs.
Also the Scottish regions as rugby entities are as old as the provincial rugby sides.

People got behind them because of the success of the provinces and the excitement of facing foreign teams. IMO

No one ever cared about the scottish regions. I think tho in Ireland the regions have an identity people can get involved with " I am a Munsterman" this is the secret behind the fanbase. Scotland has had to try to build a fanbase from nothing for new teams.

The way I see it (from the limited understanding I have gathered on here) I do think the onus is on the WRU to increase funding to the regions and to help them function. That said there must be some level of accountability at the regions to the WRU so that the money isn't squandered. We have seen some really strong teams in Wales, not least the Ospreys galacticos but without the results. 

If there isn't a significant improvement in self sufficiency and gates then is it really worth the WRU ploughing reserves of money into it? It needs to be managed. If no compromise can be found then perhaps it is better to try and start again with centrally controlled contracts.

TJ wrote:They can try to charge.  No need for Wales union to pay.  Are the welsh clubs really going to try to destroy wales 6N competitivness?

Sorry but are you talking about inside or outside the window? Inside the window, no they can't try and change. It's against the IRB Regulations (9 I think). Outside the window, of course they'll charge it and the WRU will have to pay it if they want the players (just as they do now).

if the WRU dont pay the regions a more sensible amount for player release (they are currently proposing this same thru 2018 as was negtiated in 2008 i believe) then the regions will not be able to retain players who they would be forced to release for international windows.

if they pay them nothing, then the welsh regions will be forced to field a mix of academy youngsters, journeymen, and pacific islanders, and the welsh national team players will have to find other clubs that can afford to release them without compensation.

i hardly think that would be popular in wales with anyone.

Intotouch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:the reality is that you can't just copy the model someone else has and expect it to work. the irish provincial structure has been around for ages. real fanbases. this is absolutely critical to being able to compete in a professional club tournament. IMO you need 3 things:

- big home crowds (money and helping get the victory, noisy home crowds intimidate players and refs - internet FACT)
- good, fair, sensible commercial and logistical relationship with the Union
- pride, which usually comes from history, tradition, nationality and success

if the WRU let the regions implode, they are going to have to replace them with something, and whatever they put in place will fail the first and third criteria i think are important. recipe for even greater failure than the current setup for me.

This is a bit of a myth about the provinces. Outside of when they faced touring international sides no one cared about them. The inter-pro's were held in front of tiny crowds and the fanbase was in the AIL, the clubs.
Also the Scottish regions as rugby entities are as old as the provincial rugby sides.

People got behind them because of the success of the provinces and the excitement of facing foreign teams. IMO

i hear you, but at least your club structures still exist. in wales, the wru forced some leading clubs with over 100 years of history each to merge. dip into a welsh rugby forum and you will see the bitterness is not even hidden about this.

Well the clubs still exist. They're just not the top level anymore. I wonder whether the 'best' structure for Wales is similar to the New Zealand one. Have a Welsh league, then form the Regions for Europe. Puts them at a disadvantage to others who are together all year, mind.

On the clubs, it's quite amusing that the clubs (or some of their supporters) who are so anti-regionalism have also been the beneficiaries of it. Pontypridd RFC, for example, have been the best club in the Premiership for a while, but if clubs like Llanelli, Neath, Swansea etc. had their regional players turning out for them, it would be a different story.

Tell that to Bridgend and Pontypool who have both been badly treated in the last decade.

Also I suspect Neath supports dont give a flying frig about the Ospreys as they have slowly seen their team go down the tube during regionalism

quinsforever wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:the reality is that you can't just copy the model someone else has and expect it to work. the irish provincial structure has been around for ages. real fanbases. this is absolutely critical to being able to compete in a professional club tournament. IMO you need 3 things:

- big home crowds (money and helping get the victory, noisy home crowds intimidate players and refs - internet FACT)
- good, fair, sensible commercial and logistical relationship with the Union
- pride, which usually comes from history, tradition, nationality and success

if the WRU let the regions implode, they are going to have to replace them with something, and whatever they put in place will fail the first and third criteria i think are important. recipe for even greater failure than the current setup for me.

This is a bit of a myth about the provinces. Outside of when they faced touring international sides no one cared about them. The inter-pro's were held in front of tiny crowds and the fanbase was in the AIL, the clubs.
Also the Scottish regions as rugby entities are as old as the provincial rugby sides.

People got behind them because of the success of the provinces and the excitement of facing foreign teams. IMO

i hear you, but at least your club structures still exist. in wales, the wru forced some leading clubs with over 100 years of history each to merge. dip into a welsh rugby forum and you will see the bitterness is not even hidden about this.

Forcing clubs to merge is not following the Irish/ Scottish model. It's something else. Splitting the country into four geographical regions and naming them after these areas would have been. I don't know if this would have worked for Wales as it's not something that they tried to do. Perhaps if they'd actually done what you'd said and copied this model it would have worked for them.

how about abandoning the regions and going back to the 9 welsh teams in the Premiership that existed in 2001? IIRC it was top 5 that qualified for the HC back in those days.

Couldn't be afforded, quins.

Intotouch wrote:This is a bit of a myth about the provinces. Outside of when they faced touring international sides no one cared about them. The inter-pro's were held in front of tiny crowds and the fanbase was in the AIL, the clubs.
Also the Scottish regions as rugby entities are as old as the provincial rugby sides.

People got behind them because of the success of the provinces and the excitement of facing foreign teams. IMO

That's only true in the sense that spectator numbers weren't generally that high until recent times anyway. The provincial structures were always there, as was the passion to play representative rugby via playing for your club or school.

The regions are totally manufactured for commercial reasons, a product of professionalism with no real connection to identity, tradition and culture.

I think the logical move is the Welsh teams to play in an Anglo Welsh league. From an Irish perspective I hope it doesn't happen but I don't see the Welsh ever feeling passionately about the Rabo or regions, the players or supporters.

gcBlues wrote:Couldn't be afforded, quins.

could if the WRU centrally contracts players. that's how the kiwi teams can afford it i believe.

Yeah you could do it that way but they can only centrally contract so many. You'd need 10 benefactors for 10 teams which wouldn't work.

They could do it if you had the welsh premiership with the centrally contracted players in and then regions formed for HEC/RCC.

quinsforever wrote:how about abandoning the regions and going back to the 9 welsh teams in the Premiership that existed in 2001? IIRC it was top 5 that qualified for the HC back in those days.

Not enough players and money around - over a few years you would end up with a huge disparity in the levels of the clubs as the money and the players all went to 3 or 4 clubs - or if you even it all out then none of the teams would be competative in europe- ends up like scottish football.

gcBlues wrote:Yeah you could do it that way but they can only centrally contract so many. You'd need 10 benefactors for 10 teams which wouldn't work.

They could do it if you had the welsh premiership with the centrally contracted players in and then regions formed for HEC/RCC.

that's pretty much what they do in NZ i believe. central contracting. 5 super rugby teams + several provincial ones for domestic competition. and players play for both.

i think either that, or welsh regions joining the AP would have to be considered a step forwards compared to the current death spiral.

I cannot believe folk thinking joining the AP would work. If the size of the AP increases where are the extra games played once the euro cup nonsense is sorted? Do you really think the PRL have the interests of Welsh Rugby in mind at all?

crazy idea. Welsh rugby would be totally taken over and diminished. OK its easier to win games in the AP than the Rabo but so what? Do you really think welsh teams would do OK in the AP?

I think the regions believe they will suddenly be playing 15K crowds if they play English sides. That's just not realistic.

There are 2 fundamental reason for the total lack of attendance in regional rugby.

1. The regional setup in wales was handelled by Moffet in the incorrect way. New Regions should have been formed by Geographical area. South West Wales does not have the population or demand to support 2 regional sides. In fact it probably can't really support 2 in South East Wales either. Additionally it should have gone with 3 regions instead of 4 to cut playing resources down and improve squad strengths. North Wales should have had its own region from the outset.

2. A point rarely commented on by most. Its all about the rugby brand and style. Basically the regions have really underperformed when they did have the personel and in the 10 years of existence havent moved forward in terms of a style of play. Both the Ospreys and Blues have been the biggest cuplrits of this. If you bring the fans titles you will be playing in front of big crowds, if you dont you wont. Look at Leinster, Munster & Ulsters attendances. They have focused on success and the fans show up in their droves. Its the same in England where Leicester who are the standout performers every year have massive attendance figures. You cant expect fans to part with their cash if your producing a dire product.

If they join the Aviva nothing will change the above. Disenfranchised fans wont come to watch and the remaining ones will struggle to cope with the product the welsh sides are giving their fans.

Okay.  Here's what should happen.  

Do PRL really want the Regions to join?  Is it genuine or a ruse to get the regions and the WRU into an even bigger fight than has been going on through the last number of years?

Get genuine answers to those questions formally from PRL - with written proof of their seriousness - structures, relegation details etc.

Then...if the PRL are serious, then if the Regions want to join - just go ahead an bloody-well join.  

It's the months of "we will!!!!!  I'm telling you, we will!!!!!!" threats coming from everyone - not just the Regions but from PRL, from LNR, from ERC.

Stop threatening each other with "we will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - just go ahead and bloody well decide what to do, do it and move the hell on.... all of us.  We all need to know what we'll be doing next year and the year after.  All of us, not just the Welsh regions and the English clubs.

So - make things happen.  Call the WRU bluff - sign the dotted line for PRL and see if a court ruling follows.  Same for PRL and RFU - either rejoin the ERC or go your own way.  But stop lingering.  We're all now dying from boredom with all these continuing threats of "We will!!!  We're serious.  If we don't get our way, we will!!!!"

As with most negotiations, the longer both sides go without folding the more things tend to go in favour of the side with all the aces and against the side doing most of the bluffing.....

SecretFly wrote:Okay.  Here's what should happen.  

Do PRL really want the Regions to join?  Is it genuine or a ruse to get the regions and the WRU into an even bigger fight than has been going on through the last number of years?

Get genuine answers to those questions formally from PRL - with written proof of their seriousness - structures, relegation details etc.

Then...if the PRL are serious, then if the Regions want to join - just go ahead an bloody-well join.  

It's the months of "we will!!!!!  I'm telling you, we will!!!!!!" threats coming from everyone - not just the Regions but from PRL, from LNR, from ERC.

Stop threatening each other with "we will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - just go ahead and bloody well decide what to do, do it and move the hell on.... all of us.  We all need to know what we'll be doing next year and the year after.  All of us, not just the Welsh regions and the English clubs.

So - make things happen.  Call the WRU bluff - sign the dotted line for PRL and see if a court ruling follows.  Same for PRL and RFU - either rejoin the ERC or go your own way.  But stop lingering.  We're all now dying from boredom with all these continuing threats of "We will!!!  We're serious.  If we don't get our way, we will!!!!"

Haven't the PRL said from day one that they're not rejoining the ERC? The continuing threats stopped over a year ago when they gave notice.

Also, it's not up to the PRL if the regions join or not. It's up to the RFU. Supposedly the PRL have said they all agree they would like the regions in. But whether that's genuine or it's because the RFU would block it we don't know. If they do want it I imagine it's for the potential ring-fencing that might come with it.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Okay.  Here's what should happen.  

Do PRL really want the Regions to join?  Is it genuine or a ruse to get the regions and the WRU into an even bigger fight than has been going on through the last number of years?

Get genuine answers to those questions formally from PRL - with written proof of their seriousness - structures, relegation details etc.

Then...if the PRL are serious, then if the Regions want to join - just go ahead an bloody-well join.  

It's the months of "we will!!!!!  I'm telling you, we will!!!!!!" threats coming from everyone - not just the Regions but from PRL, from LNR, from ERC.

Stop threatening each other with "we will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - just go ahead and bloody well decide what to do, do it and move the hell on.... all of us.  We all need to know what we'll be doing next year and the year after.  All of us, not just the Welsh regions and the English clubs.

So - make things happen.  Call the WRU bluff - sign the dotted line for PRL and see if a court ruling follows.  Same for PRL and RFU - either rejoin the ERC or go your own way.  But stop lingering.  We're all now dying from boredom with all these continuing threats of "We will!!!  We're serious.  If we don't get our way, we will!!!!"

Haven't the PRL said from day one that they're not rejoining the ERC? The continuing threats stopped over a year ago when they gave notice.

Also, it's not up to the PRL if the regions join or not. It's up to the RFU. Supposedly the PRL have said they all agree they would like the regions in. But whether that's genuine or it's because the RFU would block it we don't know. If they do want it I imagine it's for the potential ring-fencing that might come with it.

That's crud Hammer.  What the hell is the RFU meeting about if not to get PRL back onboard?  You think Ritchie is doing that against the wishes of a PRL that have already given up months ago?  
McCafferty has spent months saying "We will!!!  We're warning you all!!  Time is running out for the rest of you to join us!!!  We're serious.  We won't be going back.... Time is running out"
He's spent monhts at that crack....  If he and the clubs are serious just tell the RFU to "f**k off and stop trying to bring us back in".  But PRL aren't saying that....and the RFU are saying there is still hope.  They're all hoping there are more behind the scenes moves now that follow their very latest "we will" ultimatum.

The RFU meeting is the get the others on board with the PRL not let the PRL back in to the ERC.

HammerofThunor wrote:The RFU meeting is the get the others on board with the PRL not let the PRL back in to the ERC.

Yeah right. thats not happening.

The 5 unions are going ahead with a European cup under the auspices of the ERC using the structure agreed in the RFU brokered meeting. The PRL are completely isolated. No one else is going to compromise any further. The PRL have a take it or leave it option

HammerofThunor wrote:The RFU meeting is the get the others on board with the PRL not let the PRL back in to the ERC.

Well if that's the truth, it's outlandish arrogance to think the people with the weakest hand should tell those with the strongest hand to relinquish control immediately and kill your deal with Sky!  

I mean, if what you are saying is true (and I don't believe it is) but if it is, then it's stunning arrogance in the face of what was for PRL a defeat.  Plus, if that IS the attitude, and I again say I don't believe it, then there is no chance that the others are suddenly going to agree to anything that's called "help" publically but will be considered "capitulation" in private.

No, Ritchie is pleading for some way to end the stand-off.  The ball is with PRL on that one.

Ryan Jones wants anglo-welsh league next season

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

quinsforever wrote:Ryan Jones wants anglo-welsh league next season

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

""I've said for years a British league would be absolutely fantastic," Jones said."

A british league was mooted in the early days of professionalism. the english clubs wouldn't join. We ended up with the Rabo

quinsforever wrote:Ryan Jones wants anglo-welsh league next season

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

That's nice for him

A UK League (English, Welsh, Scottish and Ulster)

....and a HotBlooded League for us Irish (Ulster included if they willingly want to be - their choice), Italians and we'll take in the Spanish and Portugese.

Three Leagues.  Yeah, let's start a true expansion of inclusivity rather than lovely words about it when we need it to fluff out an argument.

It seems most 'Home' nations would gladly lose the Italians at the first opportunity - so I say we Irish have our own League and keep them attached to us.

That was something of a joke...but as I'm sitting here...the colour and vibrancy of that Hotblooded one looks genuinely inviting.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Ryan Jones wants anglo-welsh league next season

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

That's nice for him

  

It is silly season at the moment isn't it! In terms of the welsh regions, I think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can't see them surviving. They depend on Union funding to survive. If they go it'll be pulled, if they stay they'll be starved slowly. Death or Mau Mau? Death by Mau Mau!

Sorry I've had a few      

me too. your post makes total sense   

Does anyone know what time this meeting is being held today? There's no mention of it on the WRU website, which is surprising.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:They depend on Union funding to survive.

If the regions joined the Aviva, Peter Thomas would stick his hand in to his pocket and bankroll the blues no question. As it is now, he's restricting how much goes in because anything more would be unsustainable in a league where away attendance is restricted/limited and there's not a lot of prize money involved. If the blues had to fight against relegation and in a league where there is big money up for grabs along with big attendances and top calibre players, you'd see him spend more.

Not sure the situation would be like for the other regions as i don't know their ownership structure, but i can imagine the blues doing it. PT is worth a ridiculous amount isn't he? Sold the pie company for £80 million way back when and also bought/sold his stake in the airport too.

I would still be pretty skeptical that moving to a different league would be the silver bullet that saves Welsh Rugby. It seems like there is still a perception that the regions need to change one big thing. They really need to change 100 little things.

gcBlues wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:They depend on Union funding to survive.

If the regions joined the Aviva, Peter Thomas would stick his hand in to his pocket and bankroll the blues no question.

Thought PT was due to retire?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Does anyone know what time this meeting is being held today? There's no mention of it on the WRU website, which is surprising.

5pm.

For my 2 pence I think the WRU are stuck between a rock and hard place. They're not wilfully denying the regions money, and it's clear that they would prefer the international players to remain in Wales...however they will never ever be able to compete with the money on offer to players in France (and to a lesser extend England).

Even if the WRU give the regions another 1 million each what does that equate to? 2 top players if they're lucky. But where does it end? The French then just counter and offer the same players a million each. The way the French are spending is hyperinflating the market because the rest of us end up having to pay more and more to try and compete, which leads us towards the football model.

Joining the Aviva won't solve this problem either. Without the WRU funding or sugar daddies the Regions would be stuffed - just look at London Welsh's troubles last year for an indication of what would be in store. Plus, the English clubs are also suffering player drain to the French clubs and are pretty much all still making a loss. At this rate it won't be long before all the English stars are also playing in France.

All of this could have been avoided at the advent of professionalism if the French and English had opted to centrally contract players and took (at least partial) ownership of the clubs or formed franchises based on popular clubs. Sadly they didn't and it's created the perfect storm of financial inequality. Compare this to SuperRugby who got it right by creating an equal playing field. C'est la vie, it's done now.

Long term the ONLY solution is to let the top players go to play in the biggest league in the Northern Hemisphere, which will be (if it already isn't) the Top14. Now everyone would get very teary eyed and it would effectively kill pro rugby in the Celtic nations, but I can't see any alternative. Why bankrupt our unions to keep a few players in the Valleys/Glasgow/Munster etc? The Unions have to think about the sport at all levels and can't blow all their money paying players wages. At least this way we can focus on developing young players.

Brasil work off this model in football, all of their top players play abroad and they don't do too badly. Argentina have done the same in rugby and they're consistently in the IRB top 10.

I suppose my overall point is to stop collectively wringing our hands and giving the WRU (and SRU/IRU/F.I.R) hell for not bankrupting themselves to keep the best players in the regions, and just accept that this is the situation we find ourselves in.

But why can the IRFU afford to have central contracts AND fund the four Provinces more than the WRU fund the Regions? That's on top of all the Provinces (except Connacht) having good attendances (and Connacht's have grown massively in recent years). That's with the WRU playing an extra game for money, and more a larger stadium for more tickets.

Forgetting how the Regions/Provinces are run, I'm talking about central union funding. Are they just that much better run than the WRU?

HammerofThunor wrote:But why can the IRFU afford to have central contracts AND fund the four Provinces more than the WRU fund the Regions? That's on top of all the Provinces (except Connacht) having good attendances (and Connacht's have grown massively in recent years). That's with the WRU playing an extra game for money, and more a larger stadium for more tickets.

Forgetting how the Regions/Provinces are run, I'm talking about central union funding. Are they just that much better run than the WRU?

I wonder if you haven't answered your own question, Thunor?

Not sure if this has been posted before - another view on it all
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/gwyn-jones-anglo-welsh-competition-not-6394750

HammerofThunor wrote:But why can the IRFU afford to have central contracts AND fund the four Provinces more than the WRU fund the Regions? That's on top of all the Provinces (except Connacht) having good attendances (and Connacht's have grown massively in recent years). That's with the WRU playing an extra game for money, and more a larger stadium for more tickets.

Forgetting how the Regions/Provinces are run, I'm talking about central union funding. Are they just that much better run than the WRU?

Well they have been able to up till now for the reasons you stated, however with Sexton at Metro and today's rumours of Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip off to Toulouse and Clermont Auvergne respectively, they're also facing the same issue. How long will they be able to hold out? Remember it's only been in the last few years that the French money has really started to increase. Jonny Wilkinson was rumoured to be by a distance the top paid player in the world on 500k in 2009 - fast forward to now and dozens of players are on 500k plus (and that's not down to inflation!).

This is all only going to get worse. The French have flat refused to implement a salary cap in line with other NH nations and it's only a matter of time before the English up theirs creating a further bidding war for players. Better we stay out of it and let them develop our players for us (which in turn weakens their international teams due to less spots for native players).

If the Regions accepted a degree of Central control I suspect funding would increase to the Regions.

The key difference in Central Managment v Private ownership

A Welshman who can see the wood from the trees

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/gwyn-jones-anglo-welsh-competition-not-6394750

From the Annual Reports for 2013 (and I'm no accountant so may be making massive mistakes here)

WRU had income of £61M and spent £29M on Welsh rugby (international, regional, academy, domestic and community), which is 48%

IRFU had income of £55M (using today's exchange rate) and spent £38M on Irish rugby (all levels), which is 69%


As, I don't understand your point. You think the IRFU give the Provinces more money because they're able to generate more of their own through tickets? The income for the IRFU doesn't count the tickets. The funding the IRFU doesn't count for team sponsorship or anything like that. It's IRFU funding out of Representative matches and 'other'. The 'other' is only 5M Euros a year and is probably ERC money, Pro12 money and stuff like that.

geoff998rugby wrote:A Welshman who can see the wood from the trees

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/gwyn-jones-anglo-welsh-competition-not-6394750

I dunno I got as far as the '800 years of oppression' line then sort of switched off

The IRFU trtust the Provinces with the money, the WRU do not trust the Regions with the money.

Big difference