Is it good enough?

8 years and counting, regions that came about in a rush and lots of acrimony have yet to bring the highest achievements we all want.

So are you happy with your region?

Is it doing what it said on the tin?

Is the academy of your region producing prodigious amounts of talent?

With supporter numbers in decline across every region can they remain viable?

Will the possible promotion of either Cardiff or Swansea into the English premier league have any affect on "gates" at regional teams?

Should the regional experiment be abandoned?

Those are good questions, but I don't think there are simple answers. On one hand without the regional teams Welsh teams may be faring worse in the ML as the clubs would have had smaller resources. I commented on another article a while ago that the reason the Irish provinces work is that they are based on historical, cultural and sporting divides. I don't think there is anything equivalent in Wales, unless I'm mistaken.

You could have 4 geographical regions, but the chances are one or two of them would end up being very weak - a sort of sacrifice for the benefit of the others.

<<but the chances are one or two of them would end up being very weak - a sort of sacrifice for the benefit of the others>>[/b]
Shrodinger, that is exactly what happened in Ireland with Connacht. It's only now the IRFU have realised this and are actively doing something about it. That won't happen overnight but within a few years at the current rate you might see all four Irish provinces topping the Magners League.
While it's great for Irish Rugby to be in the current position and while it's nice to celebrate success with Munster, Leinster and (this season) Ulster topping the league, I would be very fearful for the survival of the league.

I had Connacht in mind Rava, but I don't think it's exactly the same because Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connacht aren't just the product of the IRFU taking a pencil to the map of Ireland: they are well established boundaries in Irish society. With the Welsh situation it is more arbitrary, which means it could be even worse for the weakest team.

I agree about competition in the league. While I want Irish teams to be as successful as possible, it is to no one's benefit if every team isn't competitive. The more competitive the league is, the better the national teams will become.

I feel that 8 years is a drop in the ocean.

You have to look at the very long term when completely redefining professional rugby in Wales.

I would imagine that to build the kind of club ethos at Munster would require several generations of players coming through the system. This constant development of the next generation is what builds the values and pride of a club.

As far as my region goes, the Ospreys. Well if they still aren't competing in Europe in 15 years time I shall be worried!

I would urge patience in fellow supporters, enjoy the highs along the way. However the lows are just as necessary for an embryonic region.

That's a very logical and considered point of view Loki. I agree.

It is also vital that the building-blocks to get to that stage are put in place - now. Ospreys went the wrong way and entrusted in an expensive team of individuals who never quite meshed or fulfilled their immense potential, in my humble opinion. Now that side is slowly breaking up, it is key that they promote indigenous young Welsh talent - like Scarlets and Dragons have done - by financial necessity rather than by design. Its working. Scarlets are really starting to thrive on it and they play the best rugby in Wales, imo. Best to watch for sure. Dragons continue to punch well above their weight. New stadium development at Dave, will also help. Their fans deserve it.

I wrote an article on the Leinster Way on here. It took 10 years to get to this stage - having made the decisions to invest heavily in our academy and put in motion all the key ingredients for success - both financially and in time spent on it. Most of the present Leinster side have come from the academy and more are coming through. They are slowly replacing some of the top marque players, who have left us better than they found us. This is a must and a prereq, for any top player coming in to fill the gaps.

Ospreys have the wherewithall to do exactly the same thing - over time. They must market this well and actually tell their loyal fans to be patient, support them and help them get there. Most good fans would do so - knowing the long-term, positive, direction they are heading in. With success and a feeling of a local team for local people - it will snowball. Maybe I am being an idealist here. But I saw it work at my province after a lot of initial pain.

Trust and invest in your youth. They are your most precious commodity - as well as fans like you.
I think you badly need to look at replacing your coaches - as well as top management. They are patently not taking your region in the direction it really needs and deserves to go in, in my opinion. Money alone, cant buy you rugby-love. Ulster are another team to watch in this respect. They have started this process and it is paying dividends already. Along with shrewd buy-ins, some great players coming through their academy now and their fan-base is solid. They are on the up and up.

Believe.

Some good questions to a select group of supporters linked with the 4 so called regional sides in Wales.

If we had true regional rugby the crowds would be larger, the current crowds are hardly larger than when Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport and Swansea played as club teams (their true identity) but we have lost most the crowds from the other 8 (now) prem clubs most of which used to beat the Scotttish clubs. Regional rugby does not exist in Wales and is not working. The wages paid to players is mad , I would rather cut the 4 region budgets to better fund a reduced prem with promotion and relegation of the bottom Welsh team, this will help to bring the crowds in. This would develop more players as they will be playing not warming the bench like 2/3rds of the Ospreys team.

I first thought if Cardiff or Swansea get promoted it will not affect crowds at the rugby matches, I still think this is true in the short term but the young supporters may switch to football with the higher profile games coming to Wales! I suspect if either team get promoted, their ground will not be big enough to cope with demand!

Well done Swans and come on Cardiff, it will be great having an all Welsh final (shame so few of the players are Welsh, bit like the Blues)!

So are you happy with your region?

Personally I am. I think that all the regions went a bit like headless chickens when regionalism/professionalism came in and all wanted to go raid the southern hemisphere for players, and that sadly caused a lack of team ethos and spirit. This lead to a large turn over of players etc. I think that the Scarlets have (due to at forced hand) have managed to get back to the more traditional way of building a squad and then trying to maintain it. The results have not yet been shown but i believe they will in time.

Is it doing what it said on the tin?

I guess if the regions job is to develope welsh players to a position where they are capable to compete for national honours then the Scarlets have finally started to get things right there. The squad for the Baabaas has probably the largest number of Scarlets in it since regionalism.

Is the academy of your region producing prodigious amounts of talent?

Personally I think that the accademy is doing a decent enough job, but i think that all the regions are producing the talent, and it is just about players fitting in where their styles and attitudes fit.

With supporter numbers in decline across every region can they remain viable?

I must be honest i was unaware that supporter numbers were down, as I thought that season ticket sales have risen ever year so far, and I personally would not be suprised to see them climb again. I just think the numbers look smaller due to the larger stadiums.

Will the possible promotion of either Cardiff or Swansea into the English premier league have any affect on "gates" at regional teams?

Cardiff??? Guess i got on here late , but being serious I don't think the pressence of the Swans in the prem. will make any difference as from my experience people tend to follow either football or rugby. So i assume maybe the Ospreys will lose a few floating fans but nothing serious.

Should the regional experiment be abandoned?.

Hell no.

This is what I really like about THIS FORUM!

Great debate, sound sense..............I don't see that anywhere else.

I'm not happy with my region.
It's not doing what they said on the tin, they virtually "promised" Heineken glory.
The academies of all four region are working, but not well enough, yet. By my reckoning, and that of pro rugby people, real results take 8 years BEFORE they start to produce real results, I think it's more about development of forwards than backs.
Gibson, you as always make some very valid points but hand on heart, weren't you like many others, just a little shocked by the low gate for the Munster/Osprey game? And spiderman, I do believe that the regions are spinning it a little with the talk of increased season ticket sales, the giveaways just prior to the start of last season were, across the board, a clear indication that many fans were struggling to buy a full season ticket. Non have increased their prices again this year providing some indication.
However, there does appear to be a sense of realism finally dawning on all the regions, and yes the Scarlets and the Dragons are at last showing the way. They are at last giving youth, locally produced, it's head. For so long the Ospreys trumpeted their academy as the way to go, and it was, but having brought the kids on, they then left them sat on benches rotting, looks as though that's now about to change.
The most worrying of the regions is the Blues, they have brought through very few young players, Brad Davies, Warburton and Jamie Roberts are the only regulars with several more still waiting but will they really get a chance with all the old guard still playing week in week out? In addition, the rumours that some young players wont sign for them, opting instead for the Dragons or Ospreys, has to be of some concern.

We now know that Cardiff will not be in the top tier of football, but Swansea may well be , like others I thought that, like me, you either liked football or rugby, so I was surprised to hear so many at the last O's game talk about the possibility of the Swans promotion. not only did they talk about it, they talked about going to some games if it happened............that could have an affect on gates. But it should be seen as a positive, a spur to encourage the region to build the supporter base year on year, some four years ago the Ospreys were getting an average attendance of over 10,000 and building, it can be done.

We all know that the regional experiment is far from perfect, and as gibson says, the Irish already had their provinces a simple tag to expand, the Scots, Aironi and the Welsh regions have a far tougher job to do, and along the way things may change, but it has to be worth continuing, going back is defeatist and not an option.

Finally, Irish domination? For the Magners clubs in the Heineken, yes, but in the Magners can I respectfully remind all our Irish cousins, it's the Ospreys who have won the Magners more times than any other team.

Ospreylian - I can only talk from personal experience, and I am young (well compared to some of you old sods on here), but i remember the year before regionalism buying a Llanelli RFC shirt in Haverfordwest (Pembs) and hardly anyone in the pubs in Milford Haven knowing what team they were. When i got my first season ticket to the Scarlets I was the only person at my work who went to see the Scarlets play. Yet this season I would say that a good dozen or so from work have been to at least one match, and a fair few have been to a few matches. And you do see regional shirts (sadly a fair few Ospreys ones) around the pubs more and more. So going by that I would say things are on the up.

As a dragons fan I'm happy at moment but it has taken time. We fell behind the other regions as far as stadia are concerned but that is now being rectified.
On the field we are finally seeing the benefits of the academy and using the premier clubs with several young players coming through it's taken time but I think we're on the right track.We have a relatively young side who all seem to want to stay and that has a knock on on effect with confidence among the support,also we currently have the benefit of a young coach who likes to play flowing rugby that always helps put bums on seats.
Against the trend I expect attendances to rise at the Dave next season

My point about the crowds being poor watching regional rugby is regarding the supporters (or no longer supporters) not watching this level of rugby. The regions average around 8K (following each team at the game) that is a mere 32K each weekend for all four teams playing at home! When Wales are playing a half decent team the stadium, it is full and could sell a lot more with prices more than twice that of regional games. It suggests to me there are a lot of rugby fans not supporting the existing super clubs, i.e., they reside north of the M4 and don't feel connected with any of the 4 so called regions.

I suspect the majority of Welsh people will watch and support Wales but will rarely or never go to a regional game.

I conclude, regional rugby is only working south of the M4 the rest of Wales watch on TV, watch their local club or found another interest since regional rugby. For me this is very sad and anyone saying we won grand slams because of regional rugby is talking not though their mouth, the players for both GS's were developed through club rugby, lets see how we get on in 5 years or more time to be a judge of regional rugby. I think our recent lack of success is not down to regional or club rugby but poor tactics as most of us know but that is another issue.

For me not linked to a region, regional rugby does not exist I see more people with Ospreys kit in Cwmbran than Dragons kit but I doubt they watch either team.

galmorganalun - I think the MS being sold out has less to do with rugby and more to do with business deals etc. I was 'fortunate' enough to get six nations tickets free from work once, and I will be honest after going I vowed never to return to watch another international match until something is done to keep the suits and 'atmosphere' fans away, and get the real rugby fans back in. The feeling of watching a regional game, surounded by fans who hurt when you lose and celebrate when you win is far different from the feeling you get when you sit in a full MS with fans who are just interested in getting their deal sealed, or where to go and carry on the drinking post match.

I do agree that to realistically judge the regions it will take until this generation (Jon Davies, Halfpenny, Biggar and Co.) of players grows up as they are the first lot to really come through the regions.

Right. There is a four area structure in Wales and has been for over 40 years, the police areas. They are based on a mix of population and logistics and hence lend themselves to representative areas. North Wales, Dyfed-Powys, South Wales and Gwent. By tweaking them slightly, by giving a chunk of west Glam to DP and North Glam to Gwent you have a workable regional structure.

However they are not regions. The fundamental problem with Wales is that the rugby dominated area is 70 miles wide and 30 miles deep at it's extremities.

I propose we abandon the region as a concept and call a spade a superclub. No attachment to premiership clubs based on geography. The superclubs second strings play in the B & I cup. No player can sign for one superclub until he has played 5 ML, European or EDF matches, not necessarily for the same superclub. The WRU to cover academy graduates pay and insurance for two years or until he gets a full time contract whichever is the sooner. If he is not offered a contract at that point he remains centrally contracted for another three years and plays for North Wales or opts out and takes his chances in the Premiership.

There is no going back. Ireland are the new England when it comes to club rugby. Let's make it work, but let's not be afraid to adopt, adapt and improve the system to suit us.

Finally, if you bought a businessman in he would never rationalise the premiership into 10 clubs.

ospreylian wrote:8 years and counting, regions that came about in a rush and lots of acrimony have yet to bring the highest achievements we all want.

So are you happy with your region?

Is it doing what it said on the tin?

Is the academy of your region producing prodigious amounts of talent?

With supporter numbers in decline across every region can they remain viable?

Will the possible promotion of either Cardiff or Swansea into the English premier league have any affect on "gates" at regional teams?

Should the regional experiment be abandoned?

Yes I'm happy with the Ospreys they have been very successful.

Yes I think so, however the Ospreys need to do far more to advertise the low cost of season tickets and do more to promote the region in their catchment area. They also need to bridge the crazy ratio price gap between one off tickets and season tickets. A season ticket costs you £8 a game with a Replica jersey thrown in, with a one off match ticket it's £20-£28. The single ticket prices put people off coming.

Yes the young talent coming from the Dragons, Scarlets and Ospreys is very, very encouraging. I'm very disappointed with the Blues though.

Supporter numbers arent relevant, the regions are funded by the WRU. Numbers are down for several reasons.
1) The World Recession,
2) Bad match day ticket prices compared to average working class fans disposable income across south Wales,
3) The poor entertainment value of the modern game as a result of unnecessary tinkering with the rules of the game by the IRB.
4) Club attendances have never been brilliant, Wales unites for the Welsh team, its always carried our rugby not the clubs.

I don't think Football effects rugby at all, there is little in common amongst the fans and few fans of either game will simply switch because their is success on the other side. If Wales suddenly got decent at rugby league would all Union fans switch to League? I don't think so. Of course we like success but once a rugby fan, always a rugby fan.

I think we are far too forgiving in Wales and are prepared to accept mediocrity and the same old excuses when our teams fail. Like it or not rugby is a professional sport and in. any other country or indeed any other line of work, if you fail to deliver you are out on your ear. In some cases the coaches should have gone by now and are now very much in the last chance saloon. The same can be said about the standard of refereeing which has been on times abysmal this season, sometimes having a profound effect on crunch matches , Scarlets v Ulster being a prime example. There is nothing worse than watching a team being beaten by the referee and it's happened all to often lately. If we expect our teams to perform to the highest standards then the same standards should be applied to the performance of referees. Sadly this is not the case at the moment.

Should the regional experiment be abandoned?[/quote]

Yes I'm happy with the Ospreys they have been very successful.

Yes I think so, however the Ospreys need to do far more to advertise the low cost of season tickets and do more to promote the region in their catchment area. They also need to bridge the crazy ratio price gap between one off tickets and season tickets. A season ticket costs you £8 a game with a Replica jersey thrown in, with a one off match ticket it's £20-£28. The single ticket prices put people off coming.

Yes the young talent coming from the Dragons, Scarlets and Ospreys is very, very encouraging. I'm very disappointed with the Blues though.

Supporter numbers arent relevant, the regions are funded by the WRU. Numbers are down for several reasons.
1) The World Recession,
2) Bad match day ticket prices compared to average working class fans disposable income across south Wales,
3) The poor entertainment value of the modern game as a result of unnecessary tinkering with the rules of the game by the IRB.
4) Club attendances have never been brilliant, Wales unites for the Welsh team, its always carried our rugby not the clubs.

I don't think Football effects rugby at all, there is little in common amongst the fans and few fans of either game will simply switch because their is success on the other side. If Wales suddenly got decent at rugby league would all Union fans switch to League? I don't think so. Of course we like success but once a rugby fan, always a rugby fan. [/quote]

Alyn, I concur with you completely on the first statement. I come from Pontypool, brought up in the tradition of Gwent 9 man rugby, and great it was too. But time and me in particular, move away and on, living in the Swansea valley it was easy to follow the O's, and they do not disappoint..............to a degree.

The point about the ticketing is valid, but I have to take issue over supporter numbers, they are of paramount importance, Ireland have shown us that, and players respond to full houses.
Points1,2,3&4.......
1) OK
2) yes to a degree.
3)Can we really blame the IRB for entertainment value?
4) I'm old enough to remember when St Helen's would be sold out quite regularly, likewise the same at Pontypool Park, Stradey and Arms park, somewhere, somehow we've lost that fan.

At the last home game I heard quite a few there talking of supporting the Swans, it's not guaranteed that fans wont switch for success.

Finally, agree entirely about the Blues (thread coming soon), all that valley's talent going to waste while old has beens fill their regional team, far too many non Welsh and a coach that struggles to find the right balance, if Cardiff were London and the game was football, would it be tolerated?

ScarletSpiderman:

Sorry for not coming back to you I am in Greece on holiday, they are better in connected in Greece than us , there is free Wifi in our hotel and the local bars.

Regarding the MS crowds, a very small proposition of the crowds is to do with business and many of them like you jump at a free ticket. I have been to numerous games so called entertaining, we had a box for three years the invited people wanted to see the games but some of the company reps were only there as a front (usually English). The point I was making most games we could fill the MS twice over but these rugby supporters don't go to see regional rugby, they probably only support say "Pontypridd/Pontypool/Newbridge etc" and Wales hence the regions have only passing interest for the majority of rugby supporters. To get these supporters into the regions games something has to be done, what is the question?
For me we don't have regional rugby
We are losing out in player development and crowds (as commented above)
This linking second tier clubs with the super clubs is a recipe for further disaster (Neath, Pontypridd and Ebbw Vale etc). I still think reducing the premier clubs is a good thing but must have promotion and relegation or will be stuck with what we have with regional rugby, no competition.
The only ML games with good crowds are the local derbies, maybe there is a good case for more teams and water down the big squads of the Blues and Ospreys to get players playing!

Good post with good comments and ideas!

With a point with the crowds, well for the Scarlets anyway, I don't think people realise but for quite a few matches this season, that whilst Y Parc wasn't full, we actually had more fans attending those matches then Stradey Park could have held. Crowds are on the up, true not for enough matches and not often enough but it is still happening. I think the new stadiums that have been built are just making the crowd attendances look worse then they actually are. It isn't all doom and gloom, or at least I hope not anyway

I posted this in the WRU thread and seemed appropriate here as well.

Even though the regions are a bit of a mess, the best rugby team I have ever played against was Bridgend Athletic. Since then I have played county and regional rugby and there has still not been a better side. I played them because I was on tour with my old club to south wales, carmathen, to be precise. We had gone unbeaten all year back in norfolk putting 50+ points past every side we had played. We turned up quite arrogant, and ended getting beaten off the park (I think they got 80 points). It later turned out ten of their players were in the ospreys academy and 6 more were going for a trial on the wednesday. I am now 16 and so most of those boys be and if they have got the right training and coaching the ospreys sdhould have an incredible academy fairly soon.

My point is maybe the regions just needed a bit more time to bed and get the necessary systems in place that top european teams have. I think that over the coming years the welsh regions may improve considerably in the next feww years.

plus i reach 500!

ospreylian wrote:Alyn, I concur with you completely on the first statement. I come from Pontypool, brought up in the tradition of Gwent 9 man rugby, and great it was too. But time and me in particular, move away and on, living in the Swansea valley it was easy to follow the O's, and they do not disappoint..............to a degree.

The point about the ticketing is valid, but I have to take issue over supporter numbers, they are of paramount importance, Ireland have shown us that, and players respond to full houses.
Points1,2,3&4.......
1) OK
2) yes to a degree.
3)Can we really blame the IRB for entertainment value?
4) I'm old enough to remember when St Helen's would be sold out quite regularly, likewise the same at Pontypool Park, Stradey and Arms park, somewhere, somehow we've lost that fan.

At the last home game I heard quite a few there talking of supporting the Swans, it's not guaranteed that fans wont switch for success.

Finally, agree entirely about the Blues (thread coming soon), all that valley's talent going to waste while old has beens fill their regional team, far too many non Welsh and a coach that struggles to find the right balance, if Cardiff were London and the game was football, would it be tolerated?

Yes we can blame the IRB for entertainment value, in 2005 the game was perfect, yet as always the bloody Australians want something changed then New Zealand will suggest something else, resulting in chaos. Now we have ping pong aerial battles and charging at the scrum resulting in constant collapses.

I've read on the Ospreys fan forum that so far only 33% of season ticket holders renewed, secondly that EL5 and 6, in the Tesco stand have been downgraded from catagory A to catagory C because of the lack of interest. I'm in El5 next season

Interest in Swansea will increase of course but only because they "might" make it to the premier league next season. All these new extra fans are fair weather supporters and wont hang around if Swansea get relegated (if their promoted at all), though again Swansea have already sold out 50% of the capacity of the stadium to season ticket holders, so it's likely at this rate there wont be ANY on sale tickets for the Swans next season.

As for point 4 of your post. Well there is far more competition for peoples attention these days, computers, various clubs, and other sports. Clearly rugby doesn't have the whole countries attention sown up like it did back in the day.