Top 14: What is your assessment?

by thebandwagonsociety Thu 12 Dec 2013, 10:50 am

Just want to set up a separate thread for this to see what peoples views are on the Top 14.

How many people on 606v2 watch Top14 rugby?

Is it really forward dominated with little backline play?

Are the away sides always made up of the reserve players with no passion or effort put into those fixtures? If so is that not just as cynical a move as the often raised issue of Irish provinces managing the playing time of its star players.

Who are the french players that we should look out for? Where do they play? I'm not talking about the Parra's and Fofana's that we all know about, who are the unknown gems that bring a club game to light.

Is there any half decent french outhalf starting regular at any club at this stage?

It is obviously a huge business in France, with reputed €100m per year tv contracts coming down the line. So the French love the product they are receiving. Having been to a couple of games over the years I found the home support anywhere I went are extremely friendly. They know their rugby, until the ref misses an infringement against their team when the pantomine starts, but that is all part of its pagentry.

What's your view?

by **rodders** Thu 12 Dec 2013, 11:02 am

I think its a very average league considering the quality of players in it.

The pace is very slow and it's very forward orientated which isn't surprising considering most teams have gargantuan tight 5s, often bolstered by aging springboks and kiwis.

Funnily enough the quality some of the French sides bring to the Heino seems much less evident in the league.

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Dec 2013, 11:24 am

Its crap

Away teams don't try and entertainment wise it is 3rd out 3 regarding the NH leagues

Proves money isn't the answer to everything

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 12 Dec 2013, 11:28 am

The refs blow every 5 seconds for the smallest of things it does my head in. The fans seem to love them kick fests.

by **rodders** Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:09 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Its crap

I was trying to be diplomatic Geoff but yea it is....

by ChequeredJersey Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:15 pm

Am I right in saying most teams give up on away wins before they've started playing?

by ChequeredJersey Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:15 pm

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/blogs/top-14-losing-away-from-home-accepted/

by Golden Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:22 pm

Bernard Jackman has written about the away form mentality too.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/european/2013/1008/479081-analysis-jackman-on-the-french-challenge/

BTW Jackman is going to be head coach of Grenoble next season. Good to see Irish coaches doing well even if its not at home.

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:23 pm

Only 7 away wins in 91 games and 3 of them at Biarritz

That's a joke

by Feckless Rogue Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:29 pm

It's awful. It's a slow, drop goal infested man-up-athon. Wasn't there a year when not a single try was scored in the entire playoffs? It's the least entertaining league.

The mad passion of the fans helps improve the spectacle. Especially for the derbies.

by Impossible Standards Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:33 pm

I was thinking of doing this article myself because all the players seem to be hyping up the top 14. It is very over hyped in my opinion. Shaun Edwards stated that when the top 14 Welsh players come back into camp they are not as fit as the players from the Rabo and they require extra training to get back to the required levels. I think the players are just trying to justify there moves by claiming its a good league to play in. Lets be honest what Jaime wants to say is that he's being paid loads of money and lives a nice life style. The quality of rugby is second to the reasons for moving especially as a back where he sees less of the ball now than when he was playing for the Blues.

by whocares Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:34 pm

Golden wrote:Bernard Jackman has written about the away form mentality too.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/european/2013/1008/479081-analysis-jackman-on-the-french-challenge/

BTW Jackman is going to be head coach of Grenoble next season. Good to see Irish coaches doing well even if its not at home.

Thanks. Nice piece by Bernard Jackman. At least an Irishman who knows what he's talking about and has a bit more to say than just the usual cliches that seem to prosper around here thumbsup

by Golden Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:57 pm

It would be interesting to compare the total tries scored in the competition each year over the last ten years or so. See if the numbers back up the opinion that the traditional french flair has been replaced with kicking everything that's on offer.

by whocares Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:09 pm

French flair. Another myth.
Anyway in the 2012/2013 season there was 649 tries scored. If I got it right, that's 3.5 tries per game in average. all sort of stats on the lnr website (sorry writting through my phone as IE cannot manage anymore this forum it wd seem...)

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:17 pm

not sure it matters what anyone else thinks of their league. the top14 clearly works for its fans, club owners, sponsors, players and broadcasters. obviously doesnt work for fans whose teams are losing star players to the top14 though.

i find it a bit depressing on here that the "received wisdom" about top14 is based on unchangeable fear and dislike about player drain to france.

makes it pretty hard to pay any attention to the points raised as there is such a clear axe being ground.

i like the top14. love the atmosphere at matches. love seeing multinational star-studded teams lining up. love the physicality. can see why it is hugely popular, and by several multiples the worlds most lucrative league.

by whocares Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:21 pm

On the other hand QF, the pressure and fear of losing (and being relegated) mean that sometimes we do have proper borefests.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:24 pm

i hear you. but i would rather a tense match that really means something, than a quasi exhibition of no consequence, every time.

by whocares Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:31 pm

To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:37 pm

whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs

well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:41 pm

quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Same could be said of the Aviva

Worcester, Irish, Gloucester and Newcastle have all shipped over 200 points as have Zebre, Treviso, Cardiff and Edinburgh - no difference
Treviso have a better defensive record than 5 Aviva side
Worcester are rated the worst side in European top flight

by **rodders** Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:44 pm

quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Paradoxically then they'd be less likely to score too one would surmise... and when you factor the weather in France compared to the british Isles it's clear that the emphasis is very much on avoiding losing games at all cost than trying to win them.

by whocares Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:47 pm

And finally all 3 leagues are still a bit far from the SXV where you had in average 4.8 tries per game.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:48 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Same could be said of the Aviva

Worcester, Irish, Gloucester and Newcastle have all shipped over 200 points as have Zebre, Treviso, Cardiff and Edinburgh - no difference
Treviso have a better defensive record than 5 Aviva side
Worcester are rated the worst side in European top flight

who's talking about the AP? you specifically compared top14 to rabo. so when your claim falls down on the facts you move the goalposts? brilliant.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:49 pm

quinsforever wrote:
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Showing your ignorance there,The Blues,Edinburgh and the Dragons all conceded more tries than Connacht and Treviso last year.Zebre were poor in results but didn't ship any more tries than the bottom placed French or English teams either.The variance in quality is no different evidence of this is when you see Connacht beating Toulouse in France,there's no way that a similarly placed French club would ever do that to the 2nd placed team in the Rabo.

by kingjohn7 Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:49 pm

quinsforever wrote:
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

What are you on, there is a huge variance of quality in all the leagues. Connacht just beat Tolouse away.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:50 pm

rodders wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Paradoxically then they'd be less likely to score too one would surmise... and when you factor the weather in France compared to the british Isles it's clear that the emphasis is very much on avoiding losing games at all cost than trying to win them.

that's because it actually matters. 2 teams get relegated from top14 every season. and only half qualify for HC. remind me how it currently works in Rabo?

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:50 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.
What are you on, there is a huge variance of quality in all the leagues. Connacht just beat Tolouse away.

thats not a league.

by thebandwagonsociety Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:52 pm

Cheers for those stats, it wouldn't look like Top14 is too far away from the AP (3.5 tries to 3.7 tries) and there is a similar closeness to the Rabo (3.7 tries to 4 tries).

However the stat that they were only 7 away wins out of 91 games is quite shocking when I read it here. But then how many times do Munster/Leinster/Leicester/Saracens lose at home in a year. Do we not give teams credit for having a fortress at home?

Also, does the dominance of the home team in a fixture mean the games are more one sided affairs. My impression has been that the away side starts off with good intentions, if they are still in the game after 30 minutes they continue to fight, if they are in the game after 60min the same, and after 70 min the same but if they are down by more than a score at any of those milestones they almost give up playing and capitulate.

by Golden Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:53 pm

quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Well not really.

In the top 14
Bayonne conceded 32 tries in 13 games. 2.46(conceded per game)
Oyannax conceded 24 tries in 13 games. 1.86
Biarritz conceded 28 tries in 13 games. 2.15

In the Pro12
Treviso conceded 20 tries in 9 games. 2.22
Zebre conceded 21 tries in 9 games 2.33
Connacht conceded 20 tries in 9 games. 2.22

Not much in is it?

Tries scored by the same teams

Bayonne 14 in 13 matchs. 1.07 (tries scored per game)
Oyannax 14 in 13 matches. 1.07
Biarritz 10 in 13 matches .769

Treviso 13 in 9 matches. 1.44
Zebre 15 in 9 matches. 1.667
Connacht 11 in 9 matches. 1.22

Make of that what you will but it does suggest that the weaker teams in the rabo are not less competitive than their top 14 counter parts relative to the others in their leagues.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:54 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Cheers for those stats, it wouldn't look like Top14 is too far away from the AP (3.5 tries to 3.7 tries) and there is a similar closeness to the Rabo (3.7 tries to 4 tries).

However the stat that they were only 7 away wins out of 91 games is quite shocking when I read it here. But then how many times do Munster/Leinster/Leicester/Saracens lose at home in a year. Do we not give teams credit for having a fortress at home?

Also, does the dominance of the home team in a fixture mean the games are more one sided affairs. My impression has been that the away side starts off with good intentions, if they are still in the game after 30 minutes they continue to fight, if they are in the game after 60min the same, and after 70 min the same but if they are down by more than a score at any of those milestones they almost give up playing and capitulate.

These teams also win regularly away from home,that's the difference.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:55 pm

cant be bothered to argue with all the one-off completely rubbish comparisons. check out some actual facts.

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

in the bottom 12 current rankings there are 7 Rabo teams, 4 AP and 1 top14

so now try and tell me that the Rabo is as tough a league as the top14...what a joke. if it were, then maybe the tv rights would be worth more than 10-15% of what the top14 are about to get for their?

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:56 pm

quinsforever wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Same could be said of the Aviva

Worcester, Irish, Gloucester and Newcastle have all shipped over 200 points as have Zebre, Treviso, Cardiff and Edinburgh - no difference
Treviso have a better defensive record than 5 Aviva side
Worcester are rated the worst side in European top flight

who's talking about the AP? you specifically compared top14 to rabo. so when your claim falls down on the facts you move the goalposts? brilliant.

Nope merely illustrating all 3 leagues have a variation in standard from top to bottom which is similar.
don't read into something something that was not intended

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:58 pm

Golden wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Well not really.

In the top 14
Bayonne conceded 32 tries in 13 games. 2.46(conceded per game)
Oyannax conceded 24 tries in 13 games. 1.86
Biarritz conceded 28 tries in 13 games. 2.15

In the Pro12
Treviso conceded 20 tries in 9 games. 2.22
Zebre conceded 21 tries in 9 games 2.33
Connacht conceded 20 tries in 9 games. 2.22

Not much in is it?

Tries scored by the same teams

Bayonne 14 in 13 matchs. 1.07 (tries scored per game)
Oyannax 14 in 13 matches. 1.07
Biarritz 10 in 13 matches .769

Treviso 13 in 9 matches. 1.44
Zebre 15 in 9 matches. 1.667
Connacht 11 in 9 matches. 1.22

Make of that what you will but it does suggest that the weaker teams in the rabo are not less competitive than their top 14 counter parts relative to the others in their leagues.

you have proven my point, which was that there is not much in it in tries scored by each league, contrary to what was claimed early on in the thread.

by whocares Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:03 pm

LNR might not get any increased tv rights in the end. Canal+ is threatening to sue them for having disclosed so called confindential information on their ongoing discussions.

by Golden Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:03 pm

No what you said was that in the Rabo it was easier to score a lot of tries because the weaker teams were weaker than their counterparts in the Top 14. Well I would say that those stats disprove that. and that the weaker teams contribute more to the total try count then their Top 14 counter parts.

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:03 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote: However the stat that they were only 7 away wins out of 91 games is quite shocking when I read it here. But then how many times do Munster/Leinster/Leicester/Saracens lose at home in a year. Do we not give teams credit for having a fortress at home?

.

Looked up the Pro 12 stats 20 out of 54 games have been away wins compared to 7 out of 91.
Only 2 out of 12 Pro12 have yet to lose at home it is 9 in the T14 and of those only 1 (Biarritz) has lost more than once.

No I do not give credit for home fortresses when the away team is often a long way from being the best XV (you do know the French rest players more than anybody else?) and that the team that takes the field plays with such a palpable lack of passion.

7 from 91 is the sign of an unhealthy league

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:03 pm

quinsforever wrote:cant be bothered to argue with all the one-off completely rubbish comparisons. check out some actual facts.

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

in the bottom 12 current rankings there are 7 Rabo teams, 4 AP and 1 top14

so now try and tell me that the Rabo is as tough a league as the top14...what a joke. if it were, then maybe the tv rights would be worth more than 10-15% of what the top14 are about to get for their?

That is heavily based on recent form,evidence of which can be found on the behind the rankings page.I gave you a comparison of the tries conceded from the entirety of last season.

EuroTable wrote:F. Recent form feature (a unique weighting of the results ensures that a team's more recent performances are given more credit than those of earlier games. As a result, the rankings will usually reflect current form rather than a team's standing over its last thirty games.

by Golden Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:06 pm

Have to say though one of the things I absolutely love about French rugby is the fans. The passion and atmosphere they generate at club game is second to none I think. Going to the Marcel Michellin for a big game is definitely one for my bucket list.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:08 pm

Golden wrote:No what you said was that in the Rabo it was easier to score a lot of tries because the weaker teams were weaker than their counterparts in the Top 14. Well I would say that those stats disprove that. and that the weaker teams contribute more to the total try count then their Top 14 counter parts.

please dont tell me that you are simply looking at tries conceded to decide that the bottom 3 in rabo and bottom 3 in top14 are about the same in quality? does the quality of the 9 or 11 teams they play against have no bearing?

just go look at the eurorugby link i posted for you

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:11 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
quinsforever wrote:cant be bothered to argue with all the one-off completely rubbish comparisons. check out some actual facts.

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

in the bottom 12 current rankings there are 7 Rabo teams, 4 AP and 1 top14

so now try and tell me that the Rabo is as tough a league as the top14...what a joke. if it were, then maybe the tv rights would be worth more than 10-15% of what the top14 are about to get for their?

That is heavily based on recent form,evidence of which can be found on the behind the rankings page.I gave you a comparison of the tries conceded from the entirety of last season.

EuroTable wrote:F. Recent form feature (a unique weighting of the results ensures that a team's more recent performances are given more credit than those of earlier games. As a result, the rankings will usually reflect current form rather than a team's standing over its last thirty games.

it is entirely based on results. recent results have a slightly higher weighting. and they also weight teams by nationality based on historic performance in the HC (different weighting for connacht than the other 3 irish sides).

this ranking system is an excellent, objective measure. confirms the truth of the clear strength of the top14 vs Rabo and AP, but particularly Rabo.

by **rodders** Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:16 pm

quinsforever wrote:
rodders wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Paradoxically then they'd be less likely to score too one would surmise... and when you factor the weather in France compared to the british Isles it's clear that the emphasis is very much on avoiding losing games at all cost than trying to win them.
that's because it actually matters. 2 teams get relegated from top14 every season. and only half qualify for HC. remind me how it currently works in Rabo?

So you are now saying its not a myth and acknowledging that the style of play is less attack orientated in the top14?

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:16 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote: However the stat that they were only 7 away wins out of 91 games is quite shocking when I read it here. But then how many times do Munster/Leinster/Leicester/Saracens lose at home in a year. Do we not give teams credit for having a fortress at home?

.

Looked up the Pro 12 stats 20 out of 54 games have been away wins compared to 7 out of 91.
Only 2 out of 12 Pro12 have yet to lose at home it is 9 in the T14 and of those only 1 (Biarritz) has lost more than once.

No I do not give credit for home fortresses when the away team is often a long way from being the best XV (you do know the French rest players more than anybody else?) and that the team that takes the field plays with such a palpable lack of passion.

7 from 91 is the sign of an unhealthy league

no, 7 from 91 is the sign of 7 from 91. you think its an unhealthy league because of the number of players heading over there to play. and you seize any piece of data to back up your predetermined view.

i would say 7 out of 91, and the huge home team support of all these teams, and the very close nature of the table, are key reasons why it is going from commercial strength to strength. precisely because it is so close is why so many frenchies want to watch it on TV and at the match, and hence why they are going to get such a huge new tv deal. [even if canal+ do successfully sue, which appears v unlikely, canal+ themselves bid EUR65m vs the EUR31.7m currently they currently pay)

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:17 pm

rodders wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
rodders wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
whocares wrote:To fully answer Golden previous post:
- AP 2012-2013: 3.7 tries per game in average
- Rabodirectpro12 2012-2013: 4 tries per game in average

Doesnt include playoffs
well that debunks the tries scored myth then. especially when you look at the huge variance in quality within the Rabo12 compared to the top14. zebre, treviso, connacht are always going to ship quite a few tries.

Paradoxically then they'd be less likely to score too one would surmise... and when you factor the weather in France compared to the british Isles it's clear that the emphasis is very much on avoiding losing games at all cost than trying to win them.
that's because it actually matters. 2 teams get relegated from top14 every season. and only half qualify for HC. remind me how it currently works in Rabo?

So you are now saying its not a myth and acknowledging that the style of play is less attack orientated in the top14?

no, the myth referred to above was about tries not being scored. i said nothing about the style of play.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:18 pm

again, for those that missed it

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:19 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Golden wrote:No what you said was that in the Rabo it was easier to score a lot of tries because the weaker teams were weaker than their counterparts in the Top 14. Well I would say that those stats disprove that. and that the weaker teams contribute more to the total try count then their Top 14 counter parts.
please dont tell me that you are simply looking at tries conceded to decide that the bottom 3 in rabo and bottom 3 in top14 are about the same in quality? does the quality of the 9 or 11 teams they play against have no bearing?

just go look at the eurorugby link i posted for you

I'va already shown you that table is heavily biased to current form and so fixture lists play an important part as every team hasn't played each other.However using the historical rankings on that site.

Last year when the season was over the bottom 12 consisted of 4 English,3 French and 5 Rabo,hardly conclusive is it?

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest&week=2013-06-03

by kingjohn7 Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:20 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Golden wrote:No what you said was that in the Rabo it was easier to score a lot of tries because the weaker teams were weaker than their counterparts in the Top 14. Well I would say that those stats disprove that. and that the weaker teams contribute more to the total try count then their Top 14 counter parts.
please dont tell me that you are simply looking at tries conceded to decide that the bottom 3 in rabo and bottom 3 in top14 are about the same in quality? DOES THE QUALITY OF THE 9 OR 11 TEAMS THEY PLAY AGAINST HAVE NO BEARING?

just go look at the eurorugby link i posted for you

Sure, but dont see how the mid-bottom placed Top14 sides are any better than Rabo or Jeff counterparts.

6 Montpellier
7 Grenoble
8 Racing Métro
9 Perpignan
10 Bordeaux-Bègles
11 Brive
12 Bayonne
13 Oyonnax
14 Biarritz

by quinsforever Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:26 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Golden wrote:No what you said was that in the Rabo it was easier to score a lot of tries because the weaker teams were weaker than their counterparts in the Top 14. Well I would say that those stats disprove that. and that the weaker teams contribute more to the total try count then their Top 14 counter parts.
please dont tell me that you are simply looking at tries conceded to decide that the bottom 3 in rabo and bottom 3 in top14 are about the same in quality? does the quality of the 9 or 11 teams they play against have no bearing?

just go look at the eurorugby link i posted for you

I'va already shown you that table is heavily biased to current form and so fixture lists play an important part as every team hasn't played each other.However using the historical rankings on that site.

Last year when the season was over the bottom 12 consisted of 4 English,3 French and 5 Rabo,hardly conclusive is it?

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest&week=2013-06-03

yup, and guess what happened to the bottom english and bottom 2 french teams?

...they got relegated.

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:26 pm

It is close because weak teams don't try away from home.
Therefore teams win nearly all their home games.
Statistically that means the league must be close - it is not a sign of quality.

I would suggest any competition where less than 20% of games are away wins is a cause for concern.

Aviva is 20 from 54 not dissimilar to the Pro12.

As in most walks of life money does not equate to quality

by thebandwagonsociety Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:30 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:Cheers for those stats, it wouldn't look like Top14 is too far away from the AP (3.5 tries to 3.7 tries) and there is a similar closeness to the Rabo (3.7 tries to 4 tries).

However the stat that they were only 7 away wins out of 91 games is quite shocking when I read it here. But then how many times do Munster/Leinster/Leicester/Saracens lose at home in a year. Do we not give teams credit for having a fortress at home?

Also, does the dominance of the home team in a fixture mean the games are more one sided affairs. My impression has been that the away side starts off with good intentions, if they are still in the game after 30 minutes they continue to fight, if they are in the game after 60min the same, and after 70 min the same but if they are down by more than a score at any of those milestones they almost give up playing and capitulate.

These teams also win regularly away from home,that's the difference.

But if everybody's home ground is a fortress then you won't be able to win regularly away from home?

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:31 pm

quinsforever wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Golden wrote:No what you said was that in the Rabo it was easier to score a lot of tries because the weaker teams were weaker than their counterparts in the Top 14. Well I would say that those stats disprove that. and that the weaker teams contribute more to the total try count then their Top 14 counter parts.
please dont tell me that you are simply looking at tries conceded to decide that the bottom 3 in rabo and bottom 3 in top14 are about the same in quality? does the quality of the 9 or 11 teams they play against have no bearing?

just go look at the eurorugby link i posted for you

I'va already shown you that table is heavily biased to current form and so fixture lists play an important part as every team hasn't played each other.However using the historical rankings on that site.

Last year when the season was over the bottom 12 consisted of 4 English,3 French and 5 Rabo,hardly conclusive is it?

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest&week=2013-06-03
yup, and guess what happened to the bottom english and bottom 2 french teams?

...they got relegated.

What has that got to do with the price of turnips?

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