Top 14: What is your assessment?

First topic message reminder :

Just want to set up a separate thread for this to see what peoples views are on the Top 14.

How many people on 606v2 watch Top14 rugby?

Is it really forward dominated with little backline play?

Are the away sides always made up of the reserve players with no passion or effort put into those fixtures? If so is that not just as cynical a move as the often raised issue of Irish provinces managing the playing time of its star players.

Who are the french players that we should look out for? Where do they play? I'm not talking about the Parra's and Fofana's that we all know about, who are the unknown gems that bring a club game to light.

Is there any half decent french outhalf starting regular at any club at this stage?

It is obviously a huge business in France, with reputed €100m per year tv contracts coming down the line. So the French love the product they are receiving.  Having been to a couple of games over the years I found the home support anywhere I went are extremely friendly.  They know their rugby, until the ref misses an infringement against their team when the pantomine starts, but that is all part of its pagentry.

What's your view?

another reason why looking at tries scored is irrelevant when comparing top14 vs Rabo (if that wasnt already clear):

"The LNR uses a slightly different bonus points system from that used in most other major domestic competitions. Instead of a bonus point being awarded for scoring 4 tries in a match, regardless of the match result, a bonus point is awarded to a winning team that scores 3 tries more than its opponent. This system makes two scenarios that can be seen in the standard system absolutely impossible:
A losing team earning two bonus points. (The "offensive" bonus point, linked to the number of tries scored, can only be earned by the winning team in France.)
Either team earning a bonus point in a drawn match. (See above for the "offensive" bonus point. The "defensive" bonus point can only be earned by a losing team.)"

- from wiki

geoff999rugby wrote:It is close because weak teams don't try away from home.
Therefore teams win nearly all their home games.
Statistically that means the league must be close  - it is not a sign of quality.

I would suggest any competition where less than 20% of games are away wins is a cause for concern.

Aviva is 20 from 54 not dissimilar to the Pro12.

As in most walks of life money does not equate to quality

as i said right at the top of this thread, who are you to opine on the quality of a league you dont support or watch? your minority, outsider opinion is clearly dwarfed by the vast numbers of french fans who vote with their wallets with respect to top14. this is just another whinge about the french league having much more money, disguised as a "their rugby is rubbish and boring"

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Cheers for those stats, it wouldn't look like Top14 is too far away from the AP (3.5 tries to 3.7 tries) and there is a similar closeness to the Rabo (3.7 tries to 4 tries).

However the stat that they were only 7 away wins out of 91 games is quite shocking when I read it here.  But then how many times do Munster/Leinster/Leicester/Saracens lose at home in a year.  Do we not give teams credit for having a fortress at home?

Also, does the dominance of the home team in a fixture mean the games are more one sided affairs.  My impression has been that the away side starts off with good intentions, if they are still in the game after 30 minutes they continue to fight, if they are in the game after 60min the same, and after 70 min the same but if they are down by more than a score at any of those milestones they almost give up playing and capitulate.

These teams also win regularly away from home,that's the difference.


But if everybody's home ground is a fortress then you won't be able to win regularly away from home?

That's a bit of a circular argument,I can only counter by citing that Montpellier,Toulouse and Racing have all lost at home in the 20 matches that French teams have played in the HC.They aren't so strong at home when the away team actually plays their 1st 15 every game.People claim the Rabo teams rest players to target the HC when it's the French that do it,the Irish teams actually pick their strongest teams in the run up to the HC in order to get all their players up to speed.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It is close because weak teams don't try away from home.
Therefore teams win nearly all their home games.
Statistically that means the league must be close  - it is not a sign of quality.

I would suggest any competition where less than 20% of games are away wins is a cause for concern.

Aviva is 20 from 54 not dissimilar to the Pro12.

As in most walks of life money does not equate to quality

as i said right at the top of this thread, who are you to opine on the quality of a league you dont support or watch? your minority, outsider opinion is clearly dwarfed by the vast numbers of french fans who vote with their wallets with respect to top14. this is just another whinge about the french league having much more money, disguised as a "their rugby is rubbish and boring"

Hypocrite,is that the word,yes I think that's it.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It is close because weak teams don't try away from home.
Therefore teams win nearly all their home games.
Statistically that means the league must be close  - it is not a sign of quality.

I would suggest any competition where less than 20% of games are away wins is a cause for concern.

Aviva is 20 from 54 not dissimilar to the Pro12.

As in most walks of life money does not equate to quality

as i said right at the top of this thread, who are you to opine on the quality of a league you dont support or watch? your minority, outsider opinion is clearly dwarfed by the vast numbers of french fans who vote with their wallets with respect to top14. this is just another whinge about the french league having much more money, disguised as a "their rugby is rubbish and boring"

Top14 teams such as Racing have been really strugglling with attendences. Racing even had to cancel their game in the SDF against Toulon in December because they weren't selling enough tickets.

asbo, I suppose you might be correct to an extent.  I just think there are a number of stereotypes at play in peoples view of the Top14 and I'm curious what people on here think about the Top14 and how many of those views come from 606v2ers who regularly watch Top14 games versus picking up one of the stereotypes and running with it.

Tries scored seem quite close between the leagues.
The league makes a lot of money and is clearly successful.
The home side often wins the game.
There are fewer marquee french names in the league (the foreign signing is becoming the face of each club).
The games are forward dominated.
The games are boring.
The games are kicking contests.

These get run out here on 606v2 quite a lot.  But are people falling for stereotypes or do they come from people's own experience of watching the games?


P.S. We can do a 'my league is better than your league' thread another day. I'd prefer to try and keep the HC frangeltic jibes off this thread for novelty value.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It is close because weak teams don't try away from home.
Therefore teams win nearly all their home games.
Statistically that means the league must be close  - it is not a sign of quality.

I would suggest any competition where less than 20% of games are away wins is a cause for concern.

Aviva is 20 from 54 not dissimilar to the Pro12.

As in most walks of life money does not equate to quality

as i said right at the top of this thread, who are you to opine on the quality of a league you dont support or watch? your minority, outsider opinion is clearly dwarfed by the vast numbers of french fans who vote with their wallets with respect to top14. this is just another whinge about the french league having much more money, disguised as a "their rugby is rubbish and boring"

And how do you know I don't watch - I do.
Trouble is everytime I have watched it the standard has been poor.
Clearly there are many on here who agree the standard is not great quality.

So lots of fans go in France - so what.
For a few years Ulster were poor didn't stop me going that is what supporters do.
If the entertainment value doesn't improve French rugby will suffer long time - it is insulting the way many away teams play in the T14.

Why would I winge about French money - it has barely impacted upon Irish rugby - only 1 player has moved over, of International standard, and at most it will be 1/2 this year.
I do have a concern that it could destroy professional rugby in other countries going forward and think steps should be taken to prevent but that is a different matter.

Why can you not accept I , and others, have been distinctly unimpressed by the entertainment value of the T14 this year.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It is close because weak teams don't try away from home.
Therefore teams win nearly all their home games.
Statistically that means the league must be close  - it is not a sign of quality.

I would suggest any competition where less than 20% of games are away wins is a cause for concern.

Aviva is 20 from 54 not dissimilar to the Pro12.

As in most walks of life money does not equate to quality

as i said right at the top of this thread, who are you to opine on the quality of a league you dont support or watch? your minority, outsider opinion is clearly dwarfed by the vast numbers of french fans who vote with their wallets with respect to top14. this is just another whinge about the french league having much more money, disguised as a "their rugby is rubbish and boring"

Hypocrite,is that the word,yes I think that's it.

Missed that good point.

Well I think the problem with slow, forward dominated kick-fest's has been well documented and commented on for quite a few years. And we can see it in the national team now too. A handful of teams do try and play attacking rugby and do try and win away. But in general it really is not very good to watch.

geoff999rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It is close because weak teams don't try away from home.
Therefore teams win nearly all their home games.
Statistically that means the league must be close  - it is not a sign of quality.

I would suggest any competition where less than 20% of games are away wins is a cause for concern.

Aviva is 20 from 54 not dissimilar to the Pro12.

As in most walks of life money does not equate to quality

as i said right at the top of this thread, who are you to opine on the quality of a league you dont support or watch? your minority, outsider opinion is clearly dwarfed by the vast numbers of french fans who vote with their wallets with respect to top14. this is just another whinge about the french league having much more money, disguised as a "their rugby is rubbish and boring"

And how do you know I don't watch - I do.
Trouble is everytime I have watched it the standard has been poor.
Clearly there are many on here who agree the standard is not great quality.

So lots of fans go in France - so what.
For a few years Ulster were poor didn't stop me going that is what supporters do.
If the entertainment value doesn't improve French rugby will suffer long time - it is insulting the way many away teams play in the T14.

Why would I winge about French money - it has barely impacted upon Irish rugby - only 1 player has moved over, of International standard, and at most it will be 1/2 this year.
I do have a concern that it could destroy professional rugby in other countries going forward and think steps should be taken to prevent but that is a different matter.

Why can you not accept I , and others, have been distinctly unimpressed by the entertainment value of the T14 this year.

People are entitled to have an opinion on about anything these days. At the end of the day your definition of entertainment must be different from the local sponsors, medias and broadcasters. Their opinion matters, yours dont.
That said it is still a minor sport in terms of tv rights at least vs football so somethings have to improve I guess.

Someone quoted me before I delivered the quote! Great work! I'm not alone.

Top14? Their rugby is rubbish and boring. And that's the reason why I never watch it!

The Top 14 is I'm sure like every league, it has its boring and exciting games. The Rabo does have some truly awful games especially around this time of year but it does also get very exciting.

Although the Top 14 does seem to have a heavier emphasis on kicking penalties and I think that is down to the French refs who will blow for a penalty at every little thing.

Why can't we all see that what we watch, we watch because we love it..... unless it's something you can often get forced to watch because there is women in the house:

X factor
I'm a Celeb
Strictly Ballroom
Coronation Street
*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Anyway, yes, the French are going to love their rugby - and because there are a lot of those rascals, the sponsorship TV deals will always be big, adding to marketing that says what they are watching is the best...and all the drama of players saying stuff before a match and coaches saying something after one.  It's a package, an entertainment package - designed for French people by French people.

Of course it works...and I'm sure much of the rugby is of a high bloody standard too.

What more can people say?

It's good stuff.  Keep it up.  But let's keep it up wherever it is played.

L4F has a good point. Some of this tv money should be invested in coaching referees as the standart is very poor.

whocares wrote:

L4F has a good point. Some of this tv money should be invested in coaching referees as the standart is very poor.

We can definitely relate to having poor refs!

whocares wrote:
People are entitled to have an opinion on about anything these days. At the end of the day your definition of entertainment must be different from the local sponsors, medias and broadcasters. Their opinion matters, yours dont.

Same to you !
This is a discussion board where people voice opinions !

Time will tell - in the end French rugby is in the entertainment business.
No my opinion is not as important to the success of French rugby as someone investing millions but at the end of the day if the product declines that investor will pull out.

At the moment the figures for French rugby look incredible but folks are going to want more for their bucks.
In my opinion, yes my opinion, the product is slipping and that needs to be addressed.

Sub standard away performances with weak teams is not good for the long term growth of the game, nor are teams where you have difficulty finding a Frenchmen.
That is not to say other teams, and other leagues, do not have issues as well but that is for another discussion.

Another thing that would improve the quality. Reduce the number of games.

Top 14: What is your assessment?

Better than the Rabo (just) but not as good as the Jeff.

Does an Englishman ever admit that anything anywhere else is better??   

Even their BBC news and programs, rife with stories that include, "Best in the world at this science", "Pobably more birds on them cliffs than anywhere else in the world", "largest building of its kind, for the puspose it was built for, in the particular style it was built in, in the world, possibly"

Oh to have such inner confidence that exudes through the pores of every Englishman...I'm telling you, if we had it, we'd probably be the Best at rugby in our country using our particular grass seeds on our pitches in the world

BBC is English? news to me.

Best in the world.

quinsforever wrote:BBC is English? news to me.

Might as well be, as well you know!!   

Do I sense you're a little bitter towards the English?   

Scrumpy wrote:Do I sense you're a little bitter towards the English?   

Err, no - I am however extremely wary of English-biased medjia

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Do I sense you're a little bitter towards the English?   

Err, no - I am however extremely wary of English-biased medjia

Wasn't aimed at you   

Furry muff

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Furry muff

So get a Brazilian!

Scrumpy wrote:Do I sense you're a little bitter towards the English?   

How could you be bitter?  It's quaint  How could anyone not like people like Attenborough and Cox and......................... well, the other kind of shows I'm only forced to watch sometimes (the glittery ones with the tinsel bits at the weekend)
Best in the world at that too I suppose ... but not my cup-o-tea though.

Is that a chip on your shoulder that you weren't born an English Gent?   

You'll be knocking GStQ next!   

Best National Anthem in the world.

Ah no, Scumpy, I'm fine where I am, counting the spuds I picked this summer. Better a citizen than a subject. But thanks for asking.

Back on topic!

I rather enjoy watching the the Top 14 at least you sense that the players want to put on a good show for the fans that have bothered to turn up.

geoff999rugby wrote:

whocares wrote:
People are entitled to have an opinion on about anything these days. At the end of the day your definition of entertainment must be different from the local sponsors, medias and broadcasters. Their opinion matters, yours dont.

Same to you !
This is a discussion board where people voice opinions !

Time will tell  -  in the end French rugby is in the entertainment business.
No my opinion is not as important to the success of French rugby as someone investing millions but at the end of the day if the product declines that investor will pull out.

At the moment the figures for French rugby look incredible but folks are going to want more for their bucks.
In my opinion, yes my opinion, the product is slipping and that needs to be addressed.

Sub standard away performances with weak teams is not good for the long term growth of the game, nor are teams where you have difficulty finding a Frenchmen.
That is not to say other teams, and other leagues, do not have issues as well but that is for another discussion.

It's all about marketing these days!
Go and tell somebody in the street that this is good entertainment and they might not believe you. Have the telly tell that to their paying customer and bingo you will have people watching and believing its an exctiting thing to watch. They will even believe that racing is great team thanks to Sexton despite being Poopie and back to the level they had in their 1st T14 year.

We french dont really rank the try count as a pre requisite, a good mud fight with a bit if drama is good enough as long as our local team beats the neighbour one at home as it has been for 100 years.

Scrumpy wrote:Back on topic!

I rather enjoy watching the the Top 14 at least you sense that the players want to put on a good show for the fans that have bothered to turn up.

  Is that a six shooter you're talking with? It's certainly accurate - the target keeps getting a bullseye. Good shooting, Scrumpy.

i agree whocares. grudge matches are always better spectacles for me, no matter how low-scoring, than free flowing exhbition style games with no real feeling or emotion involved.

my favourite match of the year so far was sarries losing 13-15 vs toulouse at wembley. would much rather watch that game again than racing vs quins this weekend for example!

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Back on topic!

I rather enjoy watching the the Top 14 at least you sense that the players want to put on a good show for the fans that have bothered to turn up.

  Is that a six shooter you're talking with?  It's certainly accurate - the target keeps getting a bullseye.  Good shooting, Scrumpy.

?

Let me guess Glue?

Nah............. when I take Glue I don't talk in riddles.... strange that.  Anyway, I'm not riddling here either as your shooting is too good to allow us pretend you're hitting something else.



Forge ahead, Scumpy.  Don't let my dilly-dallying hinder you...I'm only cruising the threads.

Wow. Interesting and bizarre look into the French phycse. No wonder we (Ospreys) have beaten Toulose, Clermont, Racing at home in the HC over the past few seasons! Shoulda known....

Re Racing cancelling their game with Toulon at Stade de France. I thought it was because their owner felt that his team was not good enough to warrant playing at the stadium*.

They must be really merde, because the pitch certainly is.



* That comment may have been a smokescreen to deflect from any lack of ticket sales.

I think it was a quite open and blunt (as the French tend to be) admittal that playing rugby that way will not gain a crowd and therefore the team shouldn't think of itself as having the ability to amass such a crowd.  Back to the drawing board - was the declaration.

I'd say I like the attitude.  If the team of well paid men (including the coaches) want to play like a second rate team then play in a second rate ground.

Oh aye, SF - I admired the lad's honesty.

The real issue with the T14 is the almost complete rotation of most teams from one week to the next. If I were a fan I would feel somewhat cheated if my team put out a side that had no hope of winning. But I kinda understand that your average French rugby fan is happy enough for their team to win at home and the away games don't really matter.

I don't agree with it though.

Yeah.  I get that point.  But I don't get the idea that a second string team, in France (with the budgets they have - and the players those second string players get to train with) - would not have the attitude of seeing these games as their genuine chance to go up the rankings within their teams.  You only get so many chances to shine.

Also.....explain away Toulouse then!  They'll probably be one of the few French teams that now play their better game away from home and obliterate Connacht at the weekend.

Oh well - more proof that each League has its own peculiar rhythms and Top14 rhythms are as quirky to the rest of us as Pro12 rhythms appear to be to the rest of you.

The away team does try from the first whistle though, but if the home team pulls away the Top14 games can turn quite stale.  The away side, if they don't think they are within winning distance shut up shop.

Also, on the fans front, on the face of it they get a great deal.  You buy a season ticket and just go to the home games chances are you will always see your team doing well, running in tries and picking up points.