Manu Tuilagi and Englands Midfield

First topic message reminder :

Been having a discussion about Manu on another thread and i thought id open it up to everyone to see your opinons?

It seems to me that almost 100% on here are simply assuming Manu will walk back in to the England team.

Is Manu simply that good that he can do that, over those currently in the midfield? Is he Englands superstar player that they cant do without?

What about his competition? He has the power game..but what if Elliott Daly was to move back permanently to 13?

Many are advocating a midfield of

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
It has huge power...but possibly missing a little guile?

Im merely putting out there...might the following have more balance?

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly (once hes back playing permanently at 13)

Can I just say that I'm not blindly backing Twelvetrees over all comers either just think he deserves more of a crack before being discarded like so many other centres.

no 7 & 1/2 Twelvetrees is the 12, surely it would have been Burrell or Barritt getting the ball to the back three in the absence of Tuilagi?

Burrell and Barritt play for the two highest try scorers in the AP. I don't think either centre has a problem of making the backs threatening.

Is Burrell-Pisi centre combo a playmaking centre partnership?

I would say a lot of the positive play of England is coming from Care mixing up the game nicely. Keeping the opposition guessing which has given Farrell more space and both Care and Farrell have utilised Burrell well. Brown has also slotted nicely into this.

It should be indicated that neither winger has scored a try yet.

At the moment it's been the 9-10-13-15 show.

Also if Burrell and Tuilagi are limited passers then what is Twelvetrees? A passing deity of the highest quality?

If you talk about Twelvetrees in such a lofty tone then of course he's going to be scrutinised more when he throws balls at people's legs etc.

Brown was playing wing when he scored his 1st. May should have scored following Twelvetrees pass. I don't think that saints wings have been prolific in the premiership now that you mention it. You could be right that the Burrell Pisi combo isn't a creative force.

I personally don't think that Barritt is great at creating tries but you watch him more than me so I'll bow to your knowledge there.

Pick out limited examples and it's possible to make anyone look rubbish. Check out Goodes performance vs france for a reason he shouldn't be picked for full back again. Or possibly judge players in a wider context?

beshocked

to be fair, the wingers could quite easily have had 2 or 3 tries between them, between butchered overlaps and losing the ball over the line. The one significant criticism that could be levelled at England in the last two games is how many opportunities they have wasted.

Your point about Care is well made, but I think you also have to credit how well the forwards have been carrying in drawing the defenders in and allowing some space for the backs.

So far, I would say of the back division (ranked in order of how well they have played:

Brown - Outstanding at full back.
Care - playing very well at 9
Farrell - Mixing up his game well at 10
Burrell - Showing the value of runnng a good line at the right time
May - Generally looks dangerous ball in hand, but a horrible error v Ireland
12trees - Has been busy, but has made a few mistakes including a couple of quite obvious ones (oddly for a supposed playmaking centre, the main issue seems to be that he is another from the Nick di Useless 'Hands like feet' school of simply catching the ball)
Nowell - His inexperience shows. Will do some really good things both tackling and ball in hand, but then gives away a soft penalty or drops a kick...

I just ask myself - would I be excited by a midfield of Barritt and Burrell. And the answer in my subjective opinion is no I wouldnt, but it would make less mistakes than the current pairing.

At international level Barritt does come across as having very little threat ball in hand but as a terrific defender.

I look at 36 and see someone who is a good defender (36/Burrell have kept their opposition fairly quiet when together) and offers some threat in attack.

I also wouldnt be surprised if the knives came out for Burrell if he was picked at 12. (no kicking, predictable etc)

lostinwales we don't know what Barritt-Burrell would be like unless we tried it. Just like Burrell-Tuilagi.

To be honest I am surprised how forgiving England fans have been to May and Nowell.

dummy half there is a fair rating I would say.

no 7 & 1/2 I wouldn't call Brown a winger though and he did it through raw power.

beshocked wrote:Also if Burrell and Tuilagi are limited passers then what is Twelvetrees? A passing deity of the highest quality?

If you talk about Twelvetrees in such a lofty tone then of course he's going to be scrutinised more when he throws balls at people's legs etc.

This kind of post is what I was referring to earlier

Twelvetrees was really unlucky to be dropped last season when Manu returned to fitness as he looked pretty decent against Scotland and Ireland.
He was unlucky to be called up for the Lions in the summer, again missing a cap in 2nd test having impressed in the 1st v Argentina.
His form this season for England has been OK - nothing special and not deserving of any great praise, but not terrible either. England are now creating chances - of which too many are being butchered, and credit should be given to all involved for that. It is only recently that an attacking plan has been discernible.

I am interested to see how a Burrell/Manu partnership would go - but fear it would be one-dimensional.

I am also interested in seeing how Eastmond could go, but fear he would be overpowered.

There are options - none at the moment earth shattering, but Lancaster et al need to decide on style and personnel very, very soon.

Londontiger fair enough if that's how you feel. I thought Twelvetrees was very good vs Scotland but poor vs Ireland - a bit like this season.

I agree about those two partnerships.Would be interesting to see what happens when Yarde and Wade are utilised.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger fair enough if that's how you feel. I thought Twelvetrees was very good vs Scotland but poor vs Ireland - a bit like this season.

I agree about those two partnerships.Would be interesting to see what happens when Yarde and Wade are utilised.

I think the only outside back on either side of last year's Eng/Ire match who came away with much credit was Goode, although on England's side I'd say Farrell and Manu did OK. The conditions had a lot to answer for.

Having seen Lanc's most recent interview the hints are that, as mentioned above, MT won't be anywhere near the 23 this week. Lots of discussion about how much the systems have changed since he last trained.

On Yarde though he seemed more open. We know what the main selections will be but this is what I think he'll go with:

20. T Johnson 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. M Yarde

That would be a kick in the slats for Ford who didn't even get onto the field in the Ireland game; but according to Beshocked he got owned last week anyway so probably shouldn't be anywhere near the squad....

Didn't say Ford shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Simply pointing out that Ford had an opportunity to lay down an important marker on the weekend which he failed to do. I would not be aggrieved if he is on the bench vs Wales.

Equally you could say that Farrell needs to improve his goal kicking for England.

Eastmond also had an opportunity to prove that he should on the radar for England at 12.

If Eastmond doesn't get another look-in for England this season, I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks about returning to League.

He might hang on a bit longer but it would probably depend on how well Bath go as a club. He might also be interested to play alongside Burgess. Against that, his real ambition has been an England slot and a World Cup squad slot.

yappysnap wrote:

Scratch wrote:Ha ha ha, oh my God! I almost didn't do it, I almost didn't do it! I thought, is this in bad taste? But you know what, I went for it. I went for it and I'm so glad I did! Ooooh, worth it, totally worth it. - Stewie Lancaster after picking Manu who went on to score the winning try in Englands victory over Wales

  

Yeah Wales are terrified of Manu's legendary passing and catching skills!!  

Scratch wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Scratch wrote:Ha ha ha, oh my God! I almost didn't do it, I almost didn't do it! I thought, is this in bad taste? But you know what, I went for it. I went for it and I'm so glad I did! Ooooh, worth it, totally worth it. - Stewie Lancaster after picking Manu who went on to score the winning try in Englands victory over Wales

  

Yeah Wales are terrified of Manu's legendary passing and catching skills!!  

Bizarre

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Scratch wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Scratch wrote:Ha ha ha, oh my God! I almost didn't do it, I almost didn't do it! I thought, is this in bad taste? But you know what, I went for it. I went for it and I'm so glad I did! Ooooh, worth it, totally worth it. - Stewie Lancaster after picking Manu who went on to score the winning try in Englands victory over Wales

  

Yeah Wales are terrified of Manu's legendary passing and catching skills!!  

Bizarre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0Ogdp4ysN0

3 minutes in, bizarre indeed

beshocked wrote:Didn't say Ford shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Simply pointing out that Ford had an opportunity to lay down an important marker on the weekend which he failed to do. I would not be aggrieved if he is on the bench vs Wales.

Equally you could say that Farrell needs to improve his goal kicking for England.

Eastmond also had an opportunity to prove that he should on the radar for England at 12.

I'd say Ford did very well considering he was on the Blackfoot for the whole game. Nobody made any ground but he usually made the right decision, which is very good.

gregortree wrote:Manu - world class centre. Need him fully fit for NZ tour.

world class my A$%^

can't pass can't catch, he's good otherwise

What the Welsh anthem?

Scratch wrote:

gregortree wrote:Manu - world class centre. Need him fully fit for NZ tour.

world class my A$%^

can't pass can't catch, he's good otherwise

I seem to remember JD having a few stinking games in the last 6N, is he quality...yes.

One missed catch doesn't define a player, as a missed kick doesn't stop Halfpenny being a world class kicker.

You're obviously looking for a reaction when in fact you're just making yourself look rather silly.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Scratch wrote:

gregortree wrote:Manu - world class centre. Need him fully fit for NZ tour.

world class my A$%^

can't pass can't catch, he's good otherwise

I seem to remember JD having a few stinking games in the last 6N, is he quality...yes.

One missed catch doesn't define a player, as a missed kick doesn't stop Halfpenny being a world class kicker.

You're obviously looking for a reaction when in fact you're just making yourself look rather silly.

Reaction? No thanks. Jog on.

And it wasn't one missed pass there have been several. But to flunk a try scoring opportunity like that one was quite something.

What is silly is for you to immediately compare him with JD2 as there really is no comparison apart from them playing centre.

Manu si not world class, he is the best you have. The two are not the same.

Why don't you go and play on one of the other threads, let the adults talk about rugby.

I think Scratch and Scrumpy are cousins - so similar in their posts, just born on opposite sides of the fence.

Scratch wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Scratch wrote:

gregortree wrote:Manu - world class centre. Need him fully fit for NZ tour.

world class my A$%^

can't pass can't catch, he's good otherwise

I seem to remember JD having a few stinking games in the last 6N, is he quality...yes.

One missed catch doesn't define a player, as a missed kick doesn't stop Halfpenny being a world class kicker.

You're obviously looking for a reaction when in fact you're just making yourself look rather silly.

Reaction? No thanks. Jog on.

And it wasn't one missed pass there have been several. But to flunk a try scoring opportunity like that one was quite something.

What is silly is for you to immediately compare him with JD2 as there really is no comparison apart from them playing centre.

Manu si not world class, he is the best you have. The two are not the same.

anyone who dominates NZ as Manu did, scoring tries and breaking the gainline at will, is always going to be considered a threat.

Manu is what, 6 years younger than JD? he has plenty of time to prove himself on the international stage, but i do know that every time he steps onto the pitch, opposition defense are going to be very focused on him, which creates opportunities elsewhere.

stop trying to pick fights Scratch. Manu has the potential to be one of the best 13s in my rugby memory (started watching 1981) if he can avoid injury. JD2 doesnt really float my boat to be honest. he's not half the player jamie roberts is.

Manu knows how it feels to beat world no 1 NZ.
He is up there.

The only thing dominating NZ when england beat them was manflu.

As for picking fights, i have no clue what you are talking about, i just disagree that Manu is anywhere near as good as JD2 and whatever his potential is he has yet to realize it.

The NZ result was an obvious outlier, there was an obvious reason they lost and it wasn't Manu Tuilagi, it was illness.

just cause GE's got a yellow card doesnt mean you have to impersonate him

actually, they got struck down, not by manflu, but by a MANU who FLEW

Well your opinion is noted Scratch, I'm sure Manu will work hard on his failings and hopefully come back a better player.

 where is that Scratch icon ?  

Shouldn't this thread read Manu Tuilagi IS England's midfield?

Wonder what the bookies are saying about him getting picked for Wales, i mean someone has to score a try against us   

quinsforever wrote:
Manu is what, 6 years younger than JD?

Only 3 years between them.

Both players have their abilities and both have failings. It is not much more than 12 months ago when Welsh fans (and his own club coacjh) were moaning about JD2's inability to pass after his display against Ireland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21373249


Meanwhile in the run-up to the 2012 NZ match people were calling for Tuilagi (and Barritt) to be axed. Manu has spent much of the time since then injured, and England Fans have been desperately people to come in and be creative 13s - to no avail. So as others wane, Manu's stock whilst injured rises. There are elements of Manus game that are most defiitely world class - however right now I would say the overall package is not. At 22 he has time and there were signs in Australia with the lions that the areas that need work were improving.

quinsforever wrote:just cause GE's got a yellow card doesnt mean you have to impersonate him

actually, they got struck down, not by manflu, but by a MANU who FLEW

OMG. Quins you're alright but i hope George's banter is better than his Dad's.

Did GE get carded again ? Missed his occasional anti ref rants and England snipers / WUMs . Is it just a 10 minute job ?

HammerofThunor wrote:

beshocked wrote:Didn't say Ford shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Simply pointing out that Ford had an opportunity to lay down an important marker on the weekend which he failed to do. I would not be aggrieved if he is on the bench vs Wales.

Equally you could say that Farrell needs to improve his goal kicking for England.

Eastmond also had an opportunity to prove that he should on the radar for England at 12.

I'd say Ford did very well considering he was on the Blackfoot for the whole game. Nobody made any ground but he usually made the right decision, which is very good.

Bath were doing really well at the set piece, had plenty of ball and territory. Made the right decision? The biggest problem was he never truly tested the Saracens defence.Why did he not try chipping over the defensive line? Saracens defence is good but not impregnable.

Manu is an impressive attacking weapon but he's not ready to play Wales.

beshocked wrote:...

Manu is an impressive attacking weapon but he's not ready to play Wales.

Absolutely - not even sure why anyone thinks otherwise. Yes, when fit and on form Manu T is our best 13, but he's played an hour of competitive rugby since October, so in no way can be considered fit and on form. And in his absence Burrell has done a very competent job at 13, so there is no need to rush Manu back in (the argument regarding Wilson returning quickly after Dan Cole's injury was somewhat different, although my perception from the Ireland match is that we might have done better with Thomas starting and Wilson on the bench).


If there was another break after this weekend I'd be more tempted to look at Manu as a serious option for the Italy game (maybe from the bench), but as things stand I think the only way he plays is if Burrell is injured.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What the Welsh anthem?

I think it goes something along the lines

If our players had been born in New Zealand they would be All Blacks,
They really are the best in the world,
And England will always lose to us cos we beat you 30-3 last year

I presume the majority of us can agree that Twelvetrees was excellent against Wales, showing a fine all-round game? Given this is how Catt and SL want to play the only player I can see threatening him, bar injury or total loss of form, at 12 is young Stephenson at Saints, and the WC will probably come too soon for him.

What is more interesting is what a fine 13 Burrell is turning into. He has power and pace like Tuilagi, and runs excellent lines, but he's a better distributor. I think the next time Manu starts a game for England it will be on the wing, where I'm sure he'll enjoy the extra freedom to go looking for the ball. Tuilagi is also an exellent bench option, covering 12, 13 and wing and offering real impact.

I really don't see why anyone would want to move Burrell from 13 to 12 at this stage.

burrell has been great at 13. excellent defensively, and popping up all over the field in support of breaks.

not so sure about manu on the wing, only because i have never seen him play there, and i always get nervous about the defensive role of a winger who isnt used to the position.

personally i would rather see 36, manu and burrell compete for the 12 + 13 jerseys. especially as burrell's stronger (as in more experience) position is 12. they are both high impact positions with inevitable injuries (ie manu) so lets have 3 strong players fighting for two spots and a bench spot.

Actually the other English player with the potential to develop into an all-court rival to Twelvetrees is Devoto. I've been really impressed with him, but he'd probably need game time at IC for Bath next season to be a contender.

It's been rumoured for a long time that SL sees Tuilagi as a winger. With the emergence of the 36-Burrell partnership he now has the opportunity to try that out. If Tuilagi can learn to defend at 13 (which he has) then I don't see why he'd struggle to learn how to defend on the wing.

Personally don't like the idea of Tuilagi on the wing. More than anything he just lacks the sheer pace and acceleration I like out there. Especially when we've got May, Nowell, Yarde, Watson and Wade to fight out for those two spots.

For all the abuse May and Nowell have received I actually think they've done a decent job. They have made some poor errors no doubt but in both cases I think the good work has outweighed the bad. Plus they have shown (albeit often in glimpses) the sort of all round skill sets we've been crying out for on the wing for a while now.

I agree that Twelvetrees, Burrell and Tuilagi are the guys to be fighting out the centre spots in the short term. On top of those I'd really like to see Eastmond and/or Daly given time from the bench in NZ where we will inevitably need a big squad.

Problem for me is getting a look at wanted combinations without piling too much pressure on them to show everything they can do with limited game time.

12.Twelvtrees 13.Tuilagi/Burrell

12.Burrell 13.Daly

12.Eastmond 13.Burrell/Tuilagi

Above are just a few of the combinations I'd be interested in seeing given game time at some point!

DaveM wrote:It's been rumoured for a long time that SL sees Tuilagi as a winger. With the emergence of the 36-Burrell partnership he now has the opportunity to try that out. If Tuilagi can learn to defend at 13 (which he has) then I don't see why he'd struggle to learn how to defend on the wing.

Devoto looks a good player.  I saw him play at fullback last season (or the season before) against Leicester and thought he was mince.  Since then he has surprised me by showing what a decent centre he is.  All of the elements are there,  he's got good hands, a decent kicking game, good defence and seems very strong.  I was surprised to see he had a decent turn of place for a big fella too.


Regarding Tuilagi, it seems like a good idea but I sit and think about game situations and can see teams like Ireland spending all game putting the ball in behind him.  I don't think I've ever even seen Manu kick a ball! Could he develop that part of his game?

He can kick the ball, certainly better than Alessana However it is average to say the least, in execution not unlike watching Ashton kick - sort of looks really clumsy.

I cannot recall him ever playing on the Wing in Leicester colours. His first appearance (against SA) was at 12 and except for the odd appearance in that shirt, he has been a 13 ever since.

LT he used to play wing for the England under 18s, was Lancaster involved with them?

king_carlos wrote:Personally don't like the idea of Tuilagi on the wing. More than anything he just lacks the sheer pace and acceleration I like out there. Especially when we've got May, Nowell, Yarde, Watson and Wade to fight out for those two spots.

For all the abuse May and Nowell have received I actually think they've done a decent job. They have made some poor errors no doubt but in both cases I think the good work has outweighed the bad. Plus they have shown (albeit often in glimpses) the sort of all round skill sets we've been crying out for on the wing for a while now.

I agree that Twelvetrees, Burrell and Tuilagi are the guys to be fighting out the centre spots in the short term. On top of those I'd really like to see Eastmond and/or Daly given time from the bench in NZ where we will inevitably need a big squad.

Problem for me is getting a look at wanted combinations without piling too much pressure on them to show everything they can do with limited game time.

12.Twelvtrees 13.Tuilagi/Burrell

12.Burrell 13.Daly

12.Eastmond 13.Burrell/Tuilagi

Above are just a few of the combinations I'd be interested in seeing given game time at some point!

Disagree king carlos. I don't think May and Nowell have been very good. You could argue that both cost us the game vs France with one getting injured and the other having a very poor first 20 minutes.

Neither have shown the finishing ability needed from a winger.

Credit to Twelvetrees and Burrell they are making sure the wingers are getting plenty of ball yet I don't feel Nowell and May are making the most of it.


Why should Daly be considered when he is playing at 15 and hasn't really achieved much yet?

Eastmond? Has a lot to prove in my opinion.

It's good that we now have 3 top options in the centres, something unheard of for England for many a year.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's good that we now have 3 top options in the centres, something unheard of for England for many a year.

Agree. Things are proceeding well, no?

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's good that we now have 3 top options in the centres, something unheard of for England for many a year.

Agree.  Things are proceeding well, no?

Aside from having wings who couldnt score in a brothel even if armed with £50 notes, one of whome was picked on his ability to handle high balls and tackle...neither of which he can do.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's good that we now have 3 top options in the centres, something unheard of for England for many a year.

Agree.  Things are proceeding well, no?

Aside from having wings who couldnt score in a brothel even if armed with £50 notes, one of whome was picked on his ability to handle high balls and tackle...neither of which he can do.

Maybe not on the field but you see him in training. It was his handling of balls and tackle in training that got him in the team. But the pressure of the actual game and 80000 live spectators and millions on TV meant he didn't do as well in the actual game. Not the first or last that someone got stage fright and didn't perform as well as hoped.

Even Monye was a disaster at full back at international level. I don't think I had seen him drop a ball once before that, full back for England and he couldn't catch them.