Manu Tuilagi and Englands Midfield

First topic message reminder :

Been having a discussion about Manu on another thread and i thought id open it up to everyone to see your opinons?

It seems to me that almost 100% on here are simply assuming Manu will walk back in to the England team.

Is Manu simply that good that he can do that, over those currently in the midfield? Is he Englands superstar player that they cant do without?

What about his competition? He has the power game..but what if Elliott Daly was to move back permanently to 13?

Many are advocating a midfield of

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
It has huge power...but possibly missing a little guile?

Im merely putting out there...might the following have more balance?

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly (once hes back playing permanently at 13)

mbernz wrote:I'm surprised at some of the conclusions on this thread about the type of player Burrell would be for England at 12.  The player I've seen there for Northampton is a lot more skilled than just a 'bosher'.

Tuilagi will almost certainly become the starting 13 again this year, and the current centres have done enough (Burrell out of position) that they must both be tested with him.

I agree, Manu trucking up the middle and then offloading to Burrell who would be running a lovely line. Of course Manu needs to work a bit more on the offloads but im confident he can do it.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I personally think Burrell's distribution has been stronger than Twelevetrees. I'd love to see Burrell/Tuilagi together.

With Top Hats hatred of Twelevetrees I'm starting to suspect he may actually be Kyle Eastmond........

Ha, considering I'm built more like Ollie Le Roux (only a few inches taller) and used to play his position - I think it's unlikely!

He shouldn't get into the team until New Zealand. Better to rest him up and reassess the next time a squad is picked

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:Farrell, for example, has been far more culpable in wasting opportunities, as has Care (who I think has had a good tournament overall).

Farrell has created a lot more than Twelvetrees though. He also been a more threatening attacking player - funny but true.

Twelvetrees is supposedly the playmaker and the creative one yet he's created very little.

Burrell is supposedly the one dimensional bosher yet I think he's shown better distribution, has been a far bigger running threat and has run some great lines. Oh and he has two tries to his name.

I think Twelvetrees is the least creative back in the English backline at the moment.


Sgt Pooly I agree. I think Burrell-Tuilagi would be great as long as Tuilagi can utilise the wingers a bit more effectively.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:9. Care
10. Farrell

11. May
12. Burrell
13. Manu
14. Yarde
15. Brown

There you go.

AGREE

Twelvetrees deserved a chance and has done some things well, but he has also had some shockers and doesn't ever threaten to do what he is apparently supposed to from Club level. It now becomes a hard balance between giving him time to gel and deciding that he needs to go away and improve things at his club or that he isn't good enough. We are definitely at the balanced bit where it could either way right now, but the biggest issue is that "we" bigged him up too much...

You should play him on the wing instead of Nowell or May..

Burrells only made 11 passes in 3 games, is he really the fulcrum of all Englands creativity?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Burrells only made 11 passes in 3 games, is he really the fulcrum of all Englands creativity?

Nope but that's not his role. I think Manu-Burrell, unless Manu was encouraged to offload and pass like we know he can, is a non-ideal combo, but 36 hasn't taken his position by storm.

Ah see the mistake I made was when peoel where talking about Burrell having creativity and being able to fulfill the playmaker role at 12 thats what they actually meant.
My other mistake was assuming that the number of breaks the outside backs have managed to make may have in some part been down to the playmaker inside them, not their own ability to find the ball then conjure space without any input from the rest of the team.

Sorry!

I personally am not sure Burrell would be a great playmaker. However, PSW, do you think Twelvetrees has actually played and created well for England?

PSW you would have a point if Twelvetrees was involved in any of the tries but he hasn't.

First try was pass from Billy to Brown who powers over.

2nd try was pass from Farrell to Vunipola who makes space for Burrell to run in.

3rd try - pass from Care to Burrell

4th try - Nowell to Brown

5th try - Robshaw to Brown to Care

No I wouldn't say the number of breaks is down to the magical twelvetrees!

I would say the creativity mostly comes from the halfbacks, primarily it has come from Care so far.

He has played created a decent number of chances that Jonny May has failed to convert though - not just against Ireland.

Manu should come back on the bench.

England now have a solid midfield cadre, what they need to top it off, is a footballer not another blunt instrument.

Manu should stay out of both the England and Tigers' HEC teams for the rest of the season.

Both Leicester and the Albion have big fish to over the year following.

Let's keep our nuke options open and working.

I agree with Portnoy

Rest our Lions. Including Farrell vs Italy. IMO a vital decision

Yeah but if we underestimate Italy and rest half our team...we'll come a croppa!

Maybe start Ford with Farrell on the bench should things go pearshaped.

Maybe one of wood or robshaw could be rested....they put some graft in already this 6n.

thomh wrote:He has played created a decent number of chances that Jonny May has failed to convert though - not just against Ireland.

Do you have an example of that?

Chequeredjersey Farrell is getting rest periods like this weekend.

Played that great ball out to May in the Scotland game early in the 2nd half and the obvious easy pass to May against Ireland when he got clipped around the head and dropped it. he's also standing in as first receiver quite a lot. People are looking at him to do something amazing or picking on mistakes. Reminds me of peoples views on Farrell; they've moved away from him after a few breaks and good performances and are now focusing on the next guy. Robshaws had it, Farrells had it, Twelvetrees is getting it now. Who's next?

beshocked wrote:

thomh wrote:He has played created a decent number of chances that Jonny May has failed to convert though - not just against Ireland.

Do you have an example of that?

Chequeredjersey Farrell is getting rest periods like this weekend.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Only example that springs to mind was when 36 COULD have put May in but decided to kick instead, wasting the chance in a game we lost by the narrowest of margins.

The thing is as a team we have looked better offensively. Personally I think a huge.part of that is the forwards are carrying much better.

However at the minute I agree Manu should not be rushed back so it's either Twelvtrees or Eastmond at 12.I say give twelvtrees another fee games to see...if he doesn't show up v Italy then maybe His position cones under consideration

We have to go for the win v Italy if its possible. And by a win i mean championship win.. So resting players shouldn't be an option..

Manu has youth on his side, unlike Cory Jane who may find it difficult to break into the test team now that younger players have come through. I agree he should not be rushed back into proceedings because you never know when injury crisis might hit and having players who already have experience playing together is worth investing in. SL has the opportunity to explore those options this 6N in the centres and on the wings (out of curiosity when is Wade supposed to return from his injury break?). As he will be forced to make changes in NZ for at least the NZ test, then that seems like the perfect opportunity to introduce Manu to test rugby after he's had a few club games. No point in disrupting the combinations you've been building when you know your returning player has had a long lay-off and won't be up to scratch.

However, the curse of having depth sometimes is to expose all that depth in order to sustain the form your players have. To me the centres and wings seem the opposite problem to the flyhalves where the former has seemingly an abundance of options - by no means perfect but at least are able to compete at test level - and the latter where there seems to be a paucity of talent or at least players who have been tried and tested.

Not quite sure why this thread is heading in that direction but resting players vs Italy in Italy is just asking for trouble.

Pull some key guys off the field when we are 20 points ahead sure - but the chances are that it will be the usual brutal arm wrestle with a winning margin of 2 scores if we are lucky. We are the one 6N team they have never beaten - so imagine how much they will raise their game if they feel they have a chance.

Agree Liw

no 7 &1/2

Twelvetrees passes ball = creative. 



I wouldn't compare Farrell to Twelvetrees.

Twelvetrees has been hyped up as the next Will Greenwood, the messiah in the centres with the brain and creativity to match.

In reality all he's done is be pretty defensively solid though then again he's made some soft missed tackles. Most of the good England back play has not come from Twelvetrees. If anything he's got very little to do with it.

Farrell in comparison has never been seen as creative. He's been repeatedly panned for standing deep and not being a good enough playmaker despite being instructed to stand deep. Farrell was not picked for the England side because of his creative/attacking brilliance.

Farrell never had the hype - he's always been a young player that has never been rated that highly outside Saracens. Mostly based on what he can't do instead of what he does. Many still believe Flood should have been picked instead of Farrell.

I agree - Robshaw has got criticised. Unwarranted in my opinion - most of it from that decision vs South Africa to kick at goal instead of go for the win.

I want to see this creative genius that you talk about - I don't think an obvious easy pass necessarily counts.

I've never said he's a creative genius or on par with Greenwood, I was just pointing out 2 examples I can remember off the top of my head where he's put people in. He does fit with the passing 12 that Lancaster wants though. What do people want from him? To waltz past players like Fofana; not going to happen. As another option for 1st receiver with a good pass and kick he's doing ok at the moment. I think the worse thing Lancaster can do is continually cutting and shutting the midfield personally. if he wants a passing 12 then to me it's a choice out of Twelvetrees or Eastmond at the moment.

mystiroakey wrote:We have to go for the win v Italy if its possible. And by a win i mean championship win.. So resting players shouldn't be an option..

Only if you think that the 6Ns is the be all and end all of SL's strategic plan.

If England can finish 2nd or 3rd this difficult season then that should be satisfactory.

Send a similar depleted squad to NZ (and if that means another 'Tour of Hell', so be it) whilst our best, key players are cosseted and nurtured at home in the summer. With a tough 16 months ahead of them in the league, a European club comp(?), AIs, 6Ns, SIs and the RWC.

It's management of resources that's key in the medium term, not short-term gains.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:We have to go for the win v Italy if its possible. And by a win i mean championship win.. So resting players shouldn't be an option..

Only if you think that the 6Ns is the be all and end all of SL's strategic plan.

If England can finish 2nd or 3rd this difficult season then that should be satisfactory.

Send a similar depleted squad to NZ (and if that means another 'Tour of Hell', so be it) whilst our best, key players are cosseted and nurtured at home in the summer. With a tough 16 months ahead of them in the league, a European club comp(?), AIs, 6Ns, SIs and the RWC.

It's management of resources that's key in the medium term, not short-term gains.

if we have a chance at winning the championship last game we go for it- end of story.

SL's eventual plan is to win the RWC.

but for now lets win this championship..

I mean really like a couple of players playing v italy is going to deplete us any more than otherwise!! lol.. We just may need to rack up a 20 pt win thats all against a very average side.. and then take the lads of

I'm sure Lancaster said he is taking strongest available squad to nz,that's why certain players were rested last summer

no 7 & 1/2 fair enough. I can't remember the May part you talk about vs Scotland. Was it a clear cut chance?

I expect him to not make numerous errors like missed tackles, throwing poor passes and knocking on. I expect him to be more useful in unlocking the opposition defence - most of the creative work so far has been done by every other back.

When Farrell is creating more opportunities than yourself, you know that you are not doing a good enough job!

Lancaster should stick with Twelvetrees till Tuilagi is ready to take his place.


mystiroakey That's Lancaster's call.

Perhaps he should start Ford vs Italy to give him a chance to prove his worth.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Rest our Lions. Including Farrell vs Italy. IMO a vital decision

Here we go, I would not underestimate Italy if I were you, if you rest your best players against them you WILL come unstuck, the Italians are not the proverbial walk over that they used to be, and an away game against them is no longer a gimmie, if you beat Wales and are then going for the championship you will need points and resting your best players is not the way to go about winning, rest your best players and Italy WILL beat you at their home ground.

Well there's only 1 Lion left in the starting 15. And whether Italy can beat us or not, going to NZ without a vaguely in form 10 with any international experience at all will just be horrible. Some will say it doesn't matter, and maybe they are right, but put it this way: we sent weakened sides to NZ last time and it ended the international chances of some very talented players who never got another look in and it has taken Brown5 years to be considered again at this level. I genuinely believe that if we don't prepare him for it and just chuck him in against NZ, whichever of Ford or burns we pick could be in serious trouble. I mean, blooding Allen against NZ at home ended his international career. We need to give another 10 some experience, and rest our Lions players.


Also have you noticed a trend with Lions players looking either Knackered and out of form or getting injured? We cannot afford for Farrell to become either.

Well, if you underestimate Italy, they WILL beat you, they have come very close on the last two occasions, and that is against a full English side, if you send out fringe players then you will not win the 6N.

We don't even know if we can win the 6N yet. Everyone knows what Italy can do, the difference between 2nd and 4th in the 6N might not be THE most important thing for this England side though. Plus with Farrell on the bench, we have to trust that Ford is good enough.

So you do not fancy your chances of beating Wales at Twickers then ?

I do but it's a close one and if we lose it certainly changes things

Well it's been unfortunate that Burns hasnt had a great season but I do think one of him or Ford should have had sometime this 6n from the bench and the recent AIs.

Maybe Lancs should also have looked at Eastmond aswell but it's getting a balance and not constantly using different players.

If we are looking for creativity...then it's twelvtrees or Eastmond...or possibly a 13 like Daly etc.

 Then again...Manu might be playing RL with Salford Reds....  

If you believe it...that is....im inclined to think thats rubbish.

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/216249.html

How many times do players "categorically deny" moves as "absolute rubbish" only for it to go through a week later...?

Good points made though that League in the UK can't afford him, he would be moving into a weaker set up and National side, less chance of a RWC win ever, worse crowds especially as he is at Leicester. Maybe if he won the RWC he'd go across looking for the challenge, before then it looks like a daydream from Salford

I think finding the best combination will rely a bit on trial and error. There are a number of viable combinations at the moment, each with different pros and cons.

I certainly think Burrell and Tuilagi should be tried together. If that were to gel you'd have a pretty fearsome combination. It may be that Ford is a better fit at 10 with those two giants, but you'd have to try it out. Summer tour is going to be key. Another talent out there is Kyle Eastmond at 12, offers something very different but he's pretty elusive. Twelvetrees is growing as the tournament goes on, and worth not forgetting Brad Barritt.

It's great (although not from a Scotland perspective) to see England finally have some options in midfield. Tindall and Noon anyone?

Salford just came up with a wish list of players they thought would be able to hack it in RL. Others on the list included North, Lydiate, Farrell and Croft. (Croft as one of the few RU forwards who could survive the pace of RL)

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think finding the best combination will rely a bit on trial and error. There are a number of viable combinations at the moment, each with different pros and cons.

I certainly think Burrell and Tuilagi should be tried together. If that were to gel you'd have a pretty fearsome combination. It may be that Ford is a better fit at 10 with those two giants, but you'd have to try it out. Summer tour is going to be key. Another talent out there is Kyle Eastmond at 12, offers something very different but he's pretty elusive. Twelvetrees is growing as the tournament goes on, and worth not forgetting Brad Barritt.

It's great (although not from a Scotland perspective) to see England finally have some options in midfield. Tindall and Noon anyone?

Never mind that. Erinle...   

lostinwales wrote:Salford just came up with a wish list of players they thought would be able to hack it in RL. Others on the list included North, Lydiate, Farrell and Croft. (Croft as one of the few RU forwards who could survive the pace of RL)

Must have been a long list

But could Croft handle the physicality?

At least we are getting to the point where selection questions are of the good variety, in that we have viable options across a number of positions (Ben Morgan and Billy V being a particularly good dilemma to have).

I think some on here are a little harsh on Burrell and Manu's handling ability - both have shown the ability to make good passes (Manu putting BOD in for a try for the Lions for one example), it is just that sometimes Manu in particular is happier taking the ball to ground than in pushing a risky pass. There is though a reasonable debate as to whether as a combination we would be getting a bit too 'Gatlandball' - I think there are differences in that Manu tends to look to run through contact while Burrell seems to pick a good line and then run straight to cut through the defence. Both are good tacklers and rarely get caught out of position in defence, but neither would offer any significant kicking game or be much use as a secondary halfback. I'd like to see them together, although not in the next few weeks (unless 12trees picks up an injury), to see if they could be effective or are a bit too similar.

lostinwales wrote:Salford just came up with a wish list of players they thought would be able to hack it in RL. Others on the list included North, Lydiate, Farrell and Croft. (Croft as one of the few RU forwards who could survive the pace of RL)

Lydiate