What would it mean if England win with 6 first pick players missing?

First topic message reminder :

Is there possibly more strength in depth to Robshaw's England today than there was in the MJ and Carling eras. Would we have beaten a very good team like Ireland with 6 players missing back then? Maybe. But to beat the best team in the NH with half the team injured, surely it would make a farce of the Lion's selection. It could be argued that a similarly injury depleted England team beat Australia quite easily in the Autumn after a heavily Welsh star laden Lions only managed to squeak through 2-1 in the summer.
Where is the true balance of power in NH rugby? Will next Sunday week provide the answer?

GunsGerms wrote:Lydiate is a fine player and a little under rated. He is as good if not better than Wood or Croft IMO. Warburton is inconsistent but on form also excellent.

I think Warburton's biggest problem is his consistency, probably due to all the injuries disrupting his rugby. He looked well on his way to becoming a world class 7 in 2011 until the RWC semi-final; since then he's had injuries preceding runs of mediocre performances followed by one or two outstanding ones followed by another injury. He has excelled in the last couple of Wales vs England games though.

honestly nothing,.

we should have the deepest depth out of any other country in the world. all the other teams will also have injurys

What would it mean if England won with 6 first pick player missing?

It would mean that England was the better team in this years 6ns. That's all.

majesticimperialman wrote:What would it mean if England won with 6 first pick player missing?

It would mean that England was the better team in this years 6ns. That's all.

Was just about to write the same thing!

Agree with both of you. Unfortunately the sight of a rugby team fielding it's entire first choice 15 is becoming an increasingly rare occurrence, let alone doing so for several games on the trot. I couldn't understand all the "we beat them EVEN with a bunch of kids playing" type talk from some of the English fans and press after their win last week. They were favourites (I saw odds of 4/9), at home and the inexperienced players like Burrell and May are bigger and quicker than the Irish vets.

Agree on all counts, Engine#4.
Too many guys injured.

For me, especially considering what I do for a living, the challenge is how to keep these guys healthy, not simply going out and fixing them afterwards, if possible.  Every year in January in the medical practice I am a part of here in New Jersey, the NFL players from the NYC American Football teams come through with depressing regularity to fix injuries sustained in the regular season.   The average career for a player in the NFL is 4 seasons, and about half of the players wash out due to injury which cannot be repaired to keep them at their prior level.  Rugby is sadly moving in that direction, too.  The practice I am a part of in UK has an increasingly similar record with Rugby players.

Is there any correlation between rates of injuries sustained at club and international level? Maybe I was feeling unduly pessimistic before hand but it seems to me that the number of 'proper' injuries actually occurring during this 6N has been low.

... it would mean that the second 6 pick is better than the first 6 pick and therefore should become the natural 6 first pick players?

Am I right?

Is the prize mine?

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

SecretFly wrote:... it would mean that the second 6 pick is better than the first 6 pick and therefore should become the natural 6 first pick players?

Am I right?  

Is the prize mine?

no not really fly.. It means that they should be considered though and it suggests we could have a capable squad

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

Yes we know that two years ago he was given that label - but that is history. What does he do that makes him so highly rated in some quarters now?

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

Yes we know that two years ago he was given that label - but that is history. What does he do that makes him so highly rated in some quarters now?

See the France game. You know, the one we cheated in?

lostinwales wrote:Is there any correlation between rates of injuries sustained at club and international level? Maybe I was feeling unduly pessimistic before hand but it seems to me that the number of 'proper' injuries actually occurring during this 6N has been low.

I don't have any data, but it would be interesting to find out. I truly believe the problem is too much Rugby in general for our players. Our guys are playing more Rugby, and they are bigger, faster, stronger than ever. Some pitches are improved, but some are poor. Too many players are looking for collision instead of gaps. All adds up to a bad situation overall. It is very good for my business, but I would happily forego the need to treat these guys.

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

Yes we know that two years ago he was given that label - but that is history. What does he do that makes him so highly rated in some quarters now?

See the France game. You know, the one we cheated in?

I personally havent said anything about cheating in that game at all. But you still havent given any reasons, and life is too short to make me watch that game in detail. What actually does he do?

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

Yes we know that two years ago he was given that label - but that is history. What does he do that makes him so highly rated in some quarters now?

See the France game. You know, the one we cheated in?

I personally havent said anything about cheating in that game at all. But you still havent given any reasons, and life is too short to make me watch that game in detail. What actually does he do?

He does what any No.6 can do. Not in the Kaino mold, but then again nobody really is. I'm trying to explain to you that based on the France game Lydiate is in good form. I've also stated that he must be playing well for an Irishman to say so, as the Irish absolutely hate Lydiate (and Warburton).

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

Yes we know that two years ago he was given that label - but that is history. What does he do that makes him so highly rated in some quarters now?

See the France game. You know, the one we cheated in?

I personally havent said anything about cheating in that game at all. But you still havent given any reasons, and life is too short to make me watch that game in detail. What actually does he do?

He does what any No.6 can do. Not in the Kaino mold, but then again nobody really is. I'm trying to explain to you that based on the France game Lydiate is in good form. I've also stated that he must be playing well for an Irishman to say so, as the Irish absolutely hate Lydiate (and Warburton).

Micheal Howard is from Gorseinon...

What particular skills, other than tackling, does Lydiate excel in then? People say he is a great no. 6 and I am keen to understand why. So far you haven't told me anything

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

Yes we know that two years ago he was given that label - but that is history. What does he do that makes him so highly rated in some quarters now?

See the France game. You know, the one we cheated in?

I personally havent said anything about cheating in that game at all. But you still havent given any reasons, and life is too short to make me watch that game in detail. What actually does he do?

He does what any No.6 can do. Not in the Kaino mold, but then again nobody really is. I'm trying to explain to you that based on the France game Lydiate is in good form. I've also stated that he must be playing well for an Irishman to say so, as the Irish absolutely hate Lydiate (and Warburton).

Micheal Howard is from Gorseinon...

What particular skills, other than tackling, does Lydiate excel in then? People say he is a great no. 6 and I am keen to understand why. So far you haven't told me anything

I've said Lydiate is playing well, and pointed you in the direction of the proof. Why would I state something else outside of what I've stated? I don't need to. Go and bug somebody else!

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

Go on then, humor us if you can, what makes Lydiate so great then?

Player of the tournament in 2012.

Yes we know that two years ago he was given that label - but that is history. What does he do that makes him so highly rated in some quarters now?

See the France game. You know, the one we cheated in?

I personally havent said anything about cheating in that game at all. But you still havent given any reasons, and life is too short to make me watch that game in detail. What actually does he do?

He does what any No.6 can do. Not in the Kaino mold, but then again nobody really is. I'm trying to explain to you that based on the France game Lydiate is in good form. I've also stated that he must be playing well for an Irishman to say so, as the Irish absolutely hate Lydiate (and Warburton).

Micheal Howard is from Gorseinon...

What particular skills, other than tackling, does Lydiate excel in then? People say he is a great no. 6 and I am keen to understand why. So far you haven't told me anything

I've said Lydiate is playing well, and pointed you in the direction of the proof. Why would I state something else outside of what I've stated? I don't need to. Go and bug somebody else!

Well you dont have to answer but you havent typed anything to convince me that he is anything more than a one trick pony. I did see a couple of highlights on the BBC website of Lydiate making ankle tackles on French players but we have already established he does that well. I watched the first half of the France match but it wasnt exactly a high quality contest and I am not going to go back there. I just want to know why he is rated so highly.

I guess we will find out one way or another on Sunday.

The thought is when he is generally doing his job, that Warburton and other 7s tend to shine. It is possibly true, but it is also more likely that Warburton etc just happen to be playing well regardless of who is at 6. I see how people will say he doesn't carry etc, but he isn't really required to do it for Wales, as the main forward carriers tend to be Toby and Hibs in the pack anyway (in my opinion). I do feel we get a better chance of players like Jenkins and Warburton getting over the ball when he's making his tackles.