England vs Wales Match day thread

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

SIX NATIONS: ENGLAND V WALES
Venue: Twickenham Date: Sunday, 9 March Kick-off: 15:00 GMT
Coverage: Watch live on BBC One, BBC One HD, listen on BBC Radio 5 Live

England

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Luther Burrell, 12-Billy Twelvetrees, 11-Jonny May, 10-Owen Farrell, 9-Danny Care

1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley, 3-David Wilson, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Tom Wood, 7-Chris Robshaw (captain), 8-Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16-Tom Youngs, 17-Mako Vunipola, 18-Henry Thomas, 19-Dave Attwood, 20-Tom Johnson, 21-Lee Dickson, 22-George Ford, 23-Alex Goode


Wales

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North, 10-Rhys Priestland, 9-Rhys Webb

1-Gethin Jenkins, 2-Richard Hibbard, 3-Adam Jones, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Dan Lydiate, 7-Sam Warburton (capt), 8-Taulupe Faletau

Replacements: Ken Owens, Paul James, Rhodri Jones, Andrew Coombs, Justin Tipuric, Mike Phillips, Dan Biggar, Liam Williams
MATCH OFFICIALS

Referee : Romain Poite (Fra)

Touch judges : Steve Walsh (Aus) & Lourens van der Merwe (RSA)
TV Official : Simon McDowell (Ire)


Next up for Wales is a trip to London and after all the banter coming out of the England camp it is time to finish the hype this match has been building and play some rugby. Have England improved on last year? Will home advantage be enough? Has Wales over come a trough and reached another high?

With plenty of injuries to key players, in fact some of England's very best players are out of this game, a convincing win for England over Wales will give the nation huge confidence going forward, maybe even a shot at the championship next weekend.

The build up seems to have been all about England, Wales are a known entity, twice champions in recent years with pretty much the same team they field tomorrow, little change to their game plan or style gives very little to discuss.

On the many various threads the situation is similar, all about England, with very little admiration of this perceivably over-rated Welsh team that have failed to beat a Southern Hemisphere top three team since 2008, the mark of all great sides.

In all honesty a tough and challenging end to the Six Nations will do this Welsh set up some good, possibly more good than the confidence a third consecutive championship would give them. Wales have little to lose and less to prove, a defeat in the manner of last years game would be vastly more detrimental to their hosts.

I hope all the fans enjoy the game, I am sure it will be the usual roller coaster of emotion for both Nations.

[ChequeredJersey]

Wales were well beaten - WUMs can look for excuses with this and that.  But the truth was that England today were much much better. If you don't accept this fine - then you won't improve and move on. Meaning England wil beat you next year in the 6 Nations and world cup.  Bury your head in the sand and get left behind by everyone else.

I don't see how some fans not accepting this will affect the Welsh team...

[SecretFly]

How much of today's game was down to home advantage?

How much of today's game was down to England playing better than Wales?

And finaly how much was today's game was down too Wales not playing well at all?

15-16ish%
70-80ish%
15-16ish%

[nathan]

How much of today's game was down to home advantage?

How much of today's game was down to England playing better than Wales?

And finaly how much was today's game was down too Wales not playing well at all?

15-16ish%
70-80ish%
15-16ish%

pretty accurate to me, although i'd have the first one down to around 14.9%   

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

How much of today's game was down to home advantage?

How much of today's game was down to England playing better than Wales?

And finaly how much was today's game was down too Wales not playing well at all?

15-16ish%
70-80ish%
15-16ish%

Fish%
Pish%
David McNish%

Be more exact Fly. Hold yourself to a higher standard. Believe!

[Guest]

It's funny to think that before this 6 nations Care and Farrell had never started at 9-10 together. They look pretty comfortable as a halfback combo. Both bringing different strengths and styles together.

Webb looked good vs France but seemed out of his depth in my opinion vs England. Priestland also had a game to forget.

England mixed up their game pretty nicely in my opinion which made it difficult for Wales to counter it.

Discipline from England wasn't great but they will be pleased with their defence and overall control of the match.

If Wales were to win it in the 2nd half they needed to make changes sooner.

Gatland and Wales were tactically out thought. England's forwards did very well but it's s huge moral booster for the pack when their backs are making the most of their work.

In contrast it must have been demoralising for the welsh pack to see them having to defend a 5 metre line out because their backs are giving the opposition too much space and time for their kicks.

The one positive that Wales can take from the game was how much better they looked once they took off Jenkins, Hibbard and Priestland. Hopefully now Gatland will have a serious think about selection.

[nathan]

The stats were pretty close, although wales missed a fair few more tackles.
England ------- Wales
50% Possession 50%
52% Territory 48%
7 (1) Scrums won (lost) 2 (0)
6 (1) Line-outs won (lost) 12 (2)
11 Pens conceded 10
84 (4) Rucks won (lost) 90 (2)
39 Possession kicked 35
137 (19) Tackles made (missed) 112 (24)
570 Metres made 420
10 Offloads 7
6 Line breaks 6

[SecretFly]

How much of today's game was down to home advantage?

How much of today's game was down to England playing better than Wales?

And finaly how much was today's game was down too Wales not playing well at all?

15-16ish%
70-80ish%
15-16ish%

Fish%
Pish%
David McNish%

Be more exact Fly.  Hold yourself to a higher standard.  Believe!

I'm a fence-sitter, Hook. Well................. at least 43.698% of me is. The rest of me is a straight talking bullschitter

[RDSguru]

Can't argue with the result, well played England, deserved winners... poor show from Wales... please rid ourselves of Priestland, he is just to flakey

[Poorfour]

I watched the game on TV, I was sure that the ref had indicated he wanted to speak to a Welsh player, so did the BBC commentator's. In the noise in the stadium I doubt whether anyone can hear the refs calls so as I said poor reffing!

He held up fingers to indicate the player who had offended, but he didn't beckon anyone over and he didn't call Warburton in (which he did on every other occasion where he wanted to talk to a player). You, and the Welsh players, may have assumed that he was going to talk to someone, but whose fault is that? If it's early enough in the game that you're not certain what a ref is signalling, you assume the ball is still live until proven otherwise. That's just basic behaviour that we drum into 7 and 8 year olds.

I don't think either side can have many objections to Poite today. What I like about his refereeing is that, probably more than any other top level ref, he has a very clear view of the sequence of events. That means that he looks at the order in which things should happen and penalises the first infringement in the sequence. I think this is the best way to arrive at a fair handling of a complex game. He also made his intentions very clear. In the scrums, he looked at the bind and body angles before considering the shove and the outcomes from the scrum. He was very clear and warned Warburton and Jenkins more than once about boring in before the yellow card. He also instructed his ARs to check things on the side of the scrum he couldn't see. You could see from their faces that the players understood what they wre being pinged for.

Likewise, at the breakdown I thought he was very consistent in what he looked for. Has the tackler released? Has the tackled player placed the ball? Is anyone off their feet? He penalised Hartley for being off his feet in what was obviously a slip, he penalised JD2 (I think) for a clear hand in the ruck. The apparent inconsistencies in what he was doing look much more consistent if you view his decisions in terms of a sequence of things to check.

[Barney McGrew did it]

I think Wales have a lot to lose.

If Wales lose do they really have quality players to come in? Would their 2 aging props cut it in a WC competition week in week out. Has Gats left it too late to blood younger props?
Is SA the place to do this?
In contrast England have almost half their first choice players out & yet have been performing consistently well this 6Ns & together with Ireland have been the best side.

A loss by Wales would be fairly devastating as only Ian Evans is missing from what would be a first choice staring XV?

England will only improve with the players they have to come in. Can Wales say the same?

Your are a bit out of touch there Trev....!

How? England have players to come in Wales don't.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/mar/06/wales-england-six-nations-breakdown

That is simple. It is because of the quality of the players. The First choice Welsh players are generally of a much higher calibre than their English counterparts... Hense the Lions test team selection and their drubbing of England last year, plus this team also beating various england selections the two matches previously, the fact England have not scored a single try against this welsh team.

England have a large playing base but a lower level of top quality player. Probably due to all the Foreign players stopping youngsters from progressing.

Where to start? Just no.

[nlpnlp]

I am not so sure it is the players but the instructions from Gatland.  I think Halfpenny is class and can run the ball back as Brown does for England - it is just belief and the permission of the coach.  If the other team can out kick you as Ireland and England did then it is a waste of time kicking the ball back aimlessly.  The other thing that struck me was the lack of a Welsh kick chase.  If you are going to kick you need a good chase - apart from 2 or 3 competes under the high ball Wales were very poor at chasing kicks.

[Scrumpy]

I thought Walsh had a good game too.

[Barney McGrew did it]

I thought Walsh had a good game too.

Walsh played a blinder. His hair was immaculate and he awarded an England penalty. And his hair was immaculate.

[lostinwales]

Did Alun Wyn Jones play today? I don.t recall any of the  pundits Morre Butlar saying his name even once.

He made a couple of good runs and stole a lineout from Lawes but most of the match looked way off the place

[lostinwales]

I watched the game on TV, I was sure that the ref had indicated he wanted to speak to a Welsh player, so did the BBC commentator's. In the noise in the stadium I doubt whether anyone can hear the refs calls so as I said poor reffing!

He held up fingers to indicate the player who had offended, but he didn't beckon anyone over and he didn't call Warburton in (which he did on every other occasion where he wanted to talk to a player). You, and the Welsh players, may have assumed that he was going to talk to someone, but whose fault is that? If it's early enough in the game that you're not certain what a ref is signalling, you assume the ball is still live until proven otherwise. That's just basic behaviour that we drum into 7 and 8 year olds.

I don't think either side can have many objections to Poite today. What I like about his refereeing is that, probably more than any other top level ref, he has a very clear view of the sequence of events. That means that he looks at the order in which things should happen and penalises the first infringement in the sequence. I think this is the best way to arrive at a fair handling of a complex game.  He also made his intentions very clear. In the scrums, he looked at the bind and body angles before considering the shove and the outcomes from the scrum. He was very clear and warned Warburton and Jenkins more than once about boring in before the yellow card. He also instructed his ARs to check things on the side of the scrum he couldn't see. You could see from their faces that the players understood what they wre being pinged for.

Likewise, at the breakdown I thought he was very consistent in what he looked for. Has the tackler released? Has the tackled player placed the ball? Is anyone off their feet? He penalised Hartley for being off his feet in what was obviously a slip, he penalised JD2 (I think) for a clear hand in the ruck. The apparent inconsistencies in what he was doing look much more consistent if you view his decisions in terms of a sequence of things to check.

I'd add that I thought his communication with both teams was very good. He was smiling a lot - all good things

[GloriousEmpire]

He allowed a shambles at the ruck. It's just fundamental to get it right. He didn't.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Well done England on your triple crown. I thought some progress was made on the creativity front today on attack. Only glimpses but definitely a step in the right direction. I know Brown has got the plaudits but I think Danny Care needs to be congratulated. He just seems to spark this attack more. The first try was awful line defence from Wales but Care went looking for that. There's an urgency about him that I like.

Wales were keeping themselves in the game. There were just too many basic errors. Half asleep with a tap penalty and nobody defending the line. Lose the throw in and that leads to England's second try. Seemed much better on attack in the second half but some continuity and then a knock on or dropped ball. Awful option taking with Jamie Roberts kicking for the line when Wales needed to be patient and keep the ball in hand. Halfpenny two tries down and he never looked like returning the ball like Brown did. You just can't kick possession away when you're that far down and you need points. Just frustrating seeing their conservatism.

England were far from perfect but credit must be given for punishing Wales' mistakes and with little possession in the second half they seemed the far more competent team in terms of sparking attack, notably on the counter attack. Wales had a cross kick that worked well in the first half and then inexplicably never used that tactic again. More kicking to the centre of the ground and hoping an England mistake would come. Priestland continues to flatter to deceive and really quite disappointed at the Welsh attack. North will rue his aimless kick through with a man outside but he and Cuthbert showed what Wales can do if they are given some space.

[GloriousEmpire]

End of the road for Gatland?

[Poorfour]

He allowed a shambles at the ruck. It's just fundamental to get it right. He didn't.

He allowed both sides more latitude than most non-French refs would. But he was consistent in what he pinged and both teams got quick ball when they got there in time. Stylistically different to what a SH referee would permit, but the game was neither a bore-fest nor a whistle-fest.

We'll never agree. You think Walsh is as good as it gets, I think Poite is. I find the French style of refereeing easier to understand and more likely to result in a game that is balanced and flows. I find Walsh incomprehensible and I think he looks at the wrong things in making his decisions.

[TJ]

GE is trolling again. best ignored.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Certainly not the end of the road for Gatland but when you win a Grand Slam and a subsequent 6N, you buy yourself from leeway. But a poor autumn against SH and the pool of death and maybe the WRU has the temptation to try somebody new beforehand. It'd be ill advised but the knives come out when you don't win. Comfortable enough wins against Italy and France don't add up to much this year. Lose against Scotland and the cries of dissent will grow much louder. Certainly the pressure will be on Gatland even if he does win next weekend. Wales haven't performed well enough this year not for there to be pressure on him.

[Scrumpy]

End of the road for Gatland?

Maybe, I think he can kiss being the lions coach goodbye, it has to be SL.

[nobbled]

End of the road for Gatland?

Maybe, I think he can kiss being the lions coach goodbye, it has to be SL.

The All Blacks job will be off the menu for a bit anyway.

[Cyril]

End of the road for Gatland?

Maybe, I think he can kiss being the lions coach goodbye, it has to be SL.

The All Blacks job will be off the menu for a bit anyway.

NZ get beat by England too sometimes so Gats shouldn't feel he's too far out of the running

[Scrumpy]

I didn't hear what Gatland had to say after the game?

But thanks for giving our boys a motivational team talk pre game Gats  

[SecretFly]

Gatland will go away and lick his wounds after this Six Nations.  He'll be back on steps cleaning more windows because that's the kinda guy he is.  He doesn't let memories haunt him.........    
Anyway, he'll go off and brood........ and I'm guessing that the results of that brooding might be a return to smallness and evasive fleet-footedness for at least one of his wing choices.  A return to traditional Welsh values if you will - or Shaneism for short.

[gavstar]

why are some posters calling for hook. I am amazed they can suggest he plays 10 WHEN HE DOES NOT PLAY 10 AT CLUB LEVEL, he plays 15 and is 3rd choice 10.

dan biggar had a good 6 nations last year, should have kept the shirt. THEN if he was poor enough he should have lost it.

the priestland story has repeated itself YET AGAIN. from the kick off he was poor. its no good some posters saying no 10 would have done better, utter rubbish.

I can't ever remember a panel at half time being so unanimous in calling for the 9 and 10 to be replaced, the 9 was trying too hard too fast, the 10 has shown again he hasn't the skill level or mental strength in these games.

it was embarrassing how poorly the kicks were executed. for all the fans who like to suffer and watch the game again, look at priestland crumble as the game evolved. out of position, webb couldn't find him, also he started his hiding near a ruck , not doing anything. even the commentator at one stage said the ball is there for priestland............he looked at it, and looked at it ,and well someone else picked it up.

he has said himself that his kicking is the weakest part of his game, YET HE IS BEING ASKED TO BE ACCURATE to a degree that wins or looses games.

biggar has excellent line kicking, ok the game plan doesn't want it, biggar is a similar player to Farrell. gatland wont change the game plan but surely biggar would be a more accurate bet, and he played to the plan in last years 6ns.

it has been said priestland gets the backs going, heads up etc. WHEN ?
gatland favours priestland.,end of. wonder if he's enough of a fan to pick him again and give him the kicking duties now halfp is out.

gatland is stubborn. he should have made the substitutions at half time.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Maybe, I think he can kiss being the lions coach goodbye, it has to be SL.

Just so long as there are no Englishmen included.

The Lions concept is a waste of bloody time these days.
I'd rather England toured another top three nation whist the Celts argue amongst themselves in their Lions tour.

[SecretFly]

nah, Port...we'll let the Brits argue about it.  Evict us from the party...we don't belong anyway - it's really a Team GB project, the Lions.  We're just guests - and often unruly, unlawful, unbowing and unbidable ones   We're trouble - as last year proved all too well.

Team Lions GB has a nice ring to it.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

I think Wales have a lot to lose.

If Wales lose do they really have quality players to come in? Would their 2 aging props cut it in a WC competition week in week out. Has Gats left it too late to blood younger props?
Is SA the place to do this?
In contrast England have almost half their first choice players out & yet have been performing consistently well this 6Ns & together with Ireland have been the best side.

A loss by Wales would be fairly devastating as only Ian Evans is missing from what would be a first choice staring XV?

England will only improve with the players they have to come in. Can Wales say the same?

Your are a bit out of touch there Trev....!

How? England have players to come in Wales don't.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/mar/06/wales-england-six-nations-breakdown

That is simple. It is because of the quality of the players. The First choice Welsh players are generally of a much higher calibre than their English counterparts... Hense the Lions test team selection and their drubbing of England last year, plus this team also beating various england selections the two matches previously, the fact England have not scored a single try against this welsh team.

England have a large playing base but a lower level of top quality player. Probably due to all the Foreign players stopping youngsters from progressing.

Where to start? Just no.

Exactly.
I don't  understand why Maes had to go into bold to reply, but the points I made have been pretty well vindicated & the here & now as opposed to hanging onto last years one good performance should hit home.

Anyway, great day of rugby enjoyed in great weather - very happy :-))

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

So did anyone catch the result and score? Care to update me? Did Wales win as expected?

[BigTrevsbigmac]

I think Wales have a lot to lose.

If Wales lose do they really have quality players to come in? Would their 2 aging props cut it in a WC competition week in week out. Has Gats left it too late to blood younger props?
Is SA the place to do this?
In contrast England have almost half their first choice players out & yet have been performing consistently well this 6Ns & together with Ireland have been the best side.

A loss by Wales would be fairly devastating as only Ian Evans is missing from what would be a first choice staring XV?

England will only improve with the players they have to come in. Can Wales say the same?

Your are a bit out of touch there Trev....!

How? England have players to come in Wales don't.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/mar/06/wales-england-six-nations-breakdown

That is simple. It is because of the quality of the players. The First choice Welsh players are generally of a much higher calibre than their English counterparts... Hense the Lions test team selection and their drubbing of England last year, plus this team also beating various england selections the two matches previously, the fact England have not scored a single try against this welsh team.

England have a large playing base but a lower level of top quality player. Probably due to all the Foreign players stopping youngsters from progressing.

You clearly haven't seen much age grade rugby over the last decade & as for the last U-20 game between us that was a total embarrassment.
This year England have a different side & Wales have largely the same so last years comparisons are irrelevant. The progress this year would be better compared by our respective performances & results against Ireland.......

At under 20s Wales rotate their players every game to give them experience ready for what we focus on, the JWC.

You may have noticed Wales under 20s contains Sampson Lee among other welsh squad players being the first team to ever beat the kiwi under 20s.

We were a hell of a lot closer to beating England at this level in the JWC final last year.

The big difference is that in Wales those under 20s come through fast in England there is a journal an foriegner ahead of them.

Jack Nowell was playing today was Sampson Lee?

[nathan]

So did anyone catch the result and score? Care to update me? Did Wales win as expected?

No they did not win dispite all the about how they were going to thrash us.

[nathan]

Sorry for that last comment, just wanted to fit the emoji in somewhere.

[SecretFly]

So did anyone catch the result and score? Care to update me? Did Wales win as expected?

Now, now Peter. Try humble and gracious first. Arriving with a wum already on the lips is a tad unseemly after a nice win.

[Scrumpy]

It's a shame wales don't play like they used too, at least they were worth watching a few years ago.

It was good that boring old england scored some tries to entertain us fans.

[TJ]

So did anyone catch the result and score? Care to update me? Did Wales win as expected?

Now, now Peter.  Try humble and gracious first.  Arriving with a wum already on the lips is a tad unseemly after a nice win.

Agreed. the Welsh fans have been very gracious in defeat. Enjoy your win in the same way

[majesticimperialman]

England have alot of their first choice players out injured. Yet Manutualaghi as come back from injurie but not considerd fit enough for this game.

So has far as Wales goes, should Warren Gatland have brought the likes of Alun Wyn Jones and Johnathon Davies back for this game? Both players have had injurie problems, but was they really match fit for this game today?

[GloriousEmpire]

JD in particular looked a lacking in match fitness.

[lostinwales]

England have alot of their first choice players out injured. Yet Manutualaghi as come back from injurie but not considerd fit enough for this game.

So has far as Wales goes, should Warren Gatland have brought the likes of Alun Wyn Jones and Johnathon Davies back for this game? Both players have had injurie problems, but was they really match fit for this game today?

Well JDII looked poor at times and lacking sharpness and physicality. AWJ had a couple of moments, including nicking a lineout but overall also looked poor. Given Scot Williams was out having lost the collision vs BOD its quite possible that the only decent alternative to even a half fit JDII would have been North at 13.

Wales could definitely use some variety in their attack. They have a bunch of big strong guys who run very hard. When it comes off it looks good and against the right opposition can be devastating, but today almost every time they only got so far before someone hesitated with the ball behind the gain line and got hammered. Lots of times in the 2nd half when they had the ball they were going backwards

[TJ]

Its the predictability of Wales that the issue. Both Ireland and England in this series could set up to perfectly counter Wales as the welsh gameplan was obvious and inflexible. Its easy to stop somone if you know how they are going to attack.

[GloriousEmpire]

I think Gatlands philosophy is that it doesn't matter if the opposition know what you're going to do, provided you do it sufficiently well.

Execution by Wales today was simply not good enough. The kicking game was too long, chasing too slow, pass execution was sloppy. It can be a game of small margins and too often Wales let themselves down. Knock ons and fumbles were particularly crippling.

[Hood83]

nah, Port...we'll let the Brits argue about it.  Evict us from the party...we don't belong anyway - it's really a Team GB project, the Lions.  We're just guests - and often unruly, unlawful, unbowing and unbidable ones   We're trouble - as last year proved all too well.

Team Lions GB has a nice ring to it.

To balance things up, I hope England are involved. Not all of us are isolationists.

[gregortree]

After a Lions tour, the 6N  favours the non participants. 
After a Gatland tour that will be England and Ireland then.   

[Casartelli]

Shame a potential classic was avoided through some eccentric selection by Gatland. You can't take on England at Twickers with players of the calibre of Rhys Priestland and Rhys Webb. Might as well play Ifans and Witherspoon.

If Phillips and Biggar had started it could have been one of the all time great 6N test matches.

[Breadvan]

Morning all   
Thoughts;SL set up England perfectly and out Walesd..Wales. A great whole team performance. Care & the second row were excellant. Good games by the centres, what a shift 36 put in, Farrell calmness personified and kicked superbly. Selection headaches for bomber coiming up once everyone is fit.
Just need more composure and guile when attacking in the 22 and camped on the line. Gifted Wales at least 9 pts through daft pens everytime we scored was frustrating.
Biggest cheer in the pub was Priestland going off summed up Wales game. Faletau did well, as did AWJ imo. North dangerous as ever.
Just take this into Rome next sat to have a chance..

[Jimpy]

right, wheres Scratch. hehe

He's decided he's half English now   

[englandglory4ever]

Who will be the first to call for a ban on quick tap penalties? Care poached the easiest of tries. Or was it simply that Wales were feeling the burn.

[englandglory4ever]

The crowd was amazing. I was there and to a man they wanted England to win and win well. The team got us singing and shouting. Can't speak today. Fantastic day and awesome performance by the guys. Particularly strong in defence. Brilliant.

[beshocked]

Who will be the first to call for a ban on quick tap penalties? Care poached the easiest of tries. Or was it simply that Wales were feeling the burn.

Surely Care's try was an advertisement for more usage of the quick tap penalty. Wales were caught napping and paid the price. Especially foolish when every man and his dog knows that Care loves the quick tap penalty.

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