England vs Wales Match day thread

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

SIX NATIONS: ENGLAND V WALES
Venue: Twickenham Date: Sunday, 9 March Kick-off: 15:00 GMT
Coverage: Watch live on BBC One, BBC One HD, listen on BBC Radio 5 Live

England

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Luther Burrell, 12-Billy Twelvetrees, 11-Jonny May, 10-Owen Farrell, 9-Danny Care

1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley, 3-David Wilson, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Tom Wood, 7-Chris Robshaw (captain), 8-Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16-Tom Youngs, 17-Mako Vunipola, 18-Henry Thomas, 19-Dave Attwood, 20-Tom Johnson, 21-Lee Dickson, 22-George Ford, 23-Alex Goode


Wales

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North, 10-Rhys Priestland, 9-Rhys Webb

1-Gethin Jenkins, 2-Richard Hibbard, 3-Adam Jones, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Dan Lydiate, 7-Sam Warburton (capt), 8-Taulupe Faletau

Replacements: Ken Owens, Paul James, Rhodri Jones, Andrew Coombs, Justin Tipuric, Mike Phillips, Dan Biggar, Liam Williams
MATCH OFFICIALS

Referee : Romain Poite (Fra)

Touch judges : Steve Walsh (Aus) & Lourens van der Merwe (RSA)
TV Official : Simon McDowell (Ire)


Next up for Wales is a trip to London and after all the banter coming out of the England camp it is time to finish the hype this match has been building and play some rugby. Have England improved on last year? Will home advantage be enough? Has Wales over come a trough and reached another high?

With plenty of injuries to key players, in fact some of England's very best players are out of this game, a convincing win for England over Wales will give the nation huge confidence going forward, maybe even a shot at the championship next weekend.

The build up seems to have been all about England, Wales are a known entity, twice champions in recent years with pretty much the same team they field tomorrow, little change to their game plan or style gives very little to discuss.

On the many various threads the situation is similar, all about England, with very little admiration of this perceivably over-rated Welsh team that have failed to beat a Southern Hemisphere top three team since 2008, the mark of all great sides.

In all honesty a tough and challenging end to the Six Nations will do this Welsh set up some good, possibly more good than the confidence a third consecutive championship would give them. Wales have little to lose and less to prove, a defeat in the manner of last years game would be vastly more detrimental to their hosts.

I hope all the fans enjoy the game, I am sure it will be the usual roller coaster of emotion for both Nations.

[GavinDragon]

Better team won, hands down.

England nullified our physicality, were efficient at the breakdown and did well at scrum time,

they looked more inventive and adventurous in attack. They are developing a game plan which is capable of troubling the big 3.

However I think some of the doomsday scenarios being touted this side of the bridge is a little OTT.

Fundamentally we were outplayed on the day and lost by 11 points, we had two chances to score and were not clinical enough,

the game plan needs to be tinkered with to allow variation when things are not going well,

personnel wise for us I still don't think we need to go overboard we have a good basis who were outplayed on the day, I think Biggar should be given an opportunity as Priestland is not playing well, Paul James deserves to start

However back to the victors, i was very much impressed with Englands second rows yesterday, they are superb athletes and remind me very much of the type of SR's that NZ SA are able to produce, considering the side yesterday also were missing corbs, cole, tuilagi among others the future is looking bright for you boys.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Burrell hasnt been MOM in any game, he wont be up for the official award. Brown has been in two games, and almost certainly has set a record for his yardage. Two tries and an assist.

[Scrumpy]

Burrell hasnt been MOM in any game, he wont be up for the official award. Brown has been in two games, and almost certainly has set a record for his yardage. Two tries and an assist.

But Pete you're forgetting one thing!

I did say imo!   

[XR]

we all know player of the tournament will go to BOD.

[Sgt_Pooly]

we all know player of the tournament will go to BOD.

It'll be a bit of joke if he does. He looked good against a poor Italian side but hasn't really played that well in the other games.

[Scrumpy]

we all know player of the tournament will go to BOD.

Then that would back up the fact that all of us were right and Gatland was wrong to drop BOD in Aus!  

[Cowshot]

On what we have seen so far, it's either Lawes or Brown for player of the tournament imo. But it's possible that someone else is doing a vast amount of the hard unglamorous graft which never gets noticed and allows others to produce the flashier stuff. I remember I was surprised when I heard that Richard Hill was always the first name on SCW's teamsheet and it was only after that when I deliberately set out to watch him closely that I realised how good he was. Maybe Robshaw or Wood should get more credit than they do?

Edit: Sorry GeordieFalcon - missed your post and am pretty much repeating it...

[SecretFly]

On what we have seen so far, it's either Lawes or Brown for player of the tournament imo. But it's possible that someone else is doing a vast amount of the hard unglamorous graft which never gets noticed and allows others to produce the flashier stuff. I remember I was surprised when I heard that Richard Hill was always the first name on SCW's teamsheet and it was only after that when I deliberately set out to watch him closely that I realised how good he was. Maybe Robshaw or Wood should get more credit than they do?

I'd say if POM is back in the Irish side for France and he has another influencial game, and Ireland win, and after his significant part in bringing about what would most likely be the Championship... I'd say he'd pretty much be giving either Lawes or Brown a push aside.

[Scrumpy]

POM?

Did he play against England?

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'd be extremley surprised if POM won it, he didn't turn up to the England game at all

[Scrumpy]

So he did play against England?

fancy that, I didn't see him do anything that justified all the hype!

[Scrumpy]

"England have it all to do. Fortress Twickenham will have no worries for this Welsh team. Wales may take the field with 12 players capped by the lions in tests. England probably will field 1."


Classic Post by a unnamed poster!   

[No9]

Very very fine margins....

If Faleteau and Lydiate had walked backwards from the first pen, rather than the schoolboy error of turning round, Care would not have run in test pen for a try.

If North had passed to Lydiate, rather than kick behind the line, Lydiate would have been over in the corner.

If Jamie hadn't kicked to far, there was another chance.

Plus so so many silly handling errors....

There really wasn't that much difference in the teams, but England made more of their chances.

Well played England, you won that Triple Crown fair and square.... Look after it for us, we'll have it back next year. ;-)

[Cowshot]

I agree with Sgt Pooly and Scrumpy, SecretFly. He did seem pretty anonymous against us, whereas Brown and Lawes both had very good games against France, iirc.

"England have it all to do. Fortress Twickenham will have no worries for this Welsh team. Wales may take the field with 12 players capped by the lions in tests. England probably will field 1."

While we're handing out the plaudits - the England Coaching team deserve great credit for the game plan that beat so many undoubtedly World Class players!   

[No9]

we all know player of the tournament will go to BOD.

Then that would back up the fact that all of us were right and Gatland was wrong to drop BOD in Aus!

Doh.... BOD was awarded MoM before they kicked off... That was always going to be the way for his last home game...

Won't be surprised if he does get 6 Nations player of 2014 award, but again that'll be for his retirement, not because he earned it this tournament...

May be controversial of me, but you'll all be nodding quietly to yourselves even if you won't support it openly.

[beshocked]

Very very fine margins....

If Faleteau and Lydiate had walked backwards from the first pen, rather than the schoolboy error of turning round, Care would not have run in test pen for a try.

If North had passed to Lydiate, rather than  kick behind the line, Lydiate would have been over in the corner.

If Jamie hadn't kicked to far, there was another chance.

Plus so so many silly handling errors....

There really wasn't that much difference in the teams, but England made more of their chances.

Well played England, you won that Triple Crown fair and square.... Look after it for us, we'll have it back next year. ;-)

Don't think you can say that the North-Lydiate chance would have been a definite try. At the time Farrell was coming over to cover Lydiate and might well have stopped him. One of the commentators I think the high pitched whiny Jonathan Davies pointed it out.

[SecretFly]

POM?

Did he play against England?

It ain't the How Well You Played Against England Award, Scrumpy

And 3 points between suggests he didn't exactly go AWOL during the game either.

[Cowshot]

we all know player of the tournament will go to BOD.

Then that would back up the fact that all of us were right and Gatland was wrong to drop BOD in Aus!  

Doh.... BOD was awarded MoM before they kicked off... That was always going to be the way for his last home game...

Won't be surprised if he does get 6 Nations player of 2014 award, but again that'll be for his retirement, not because he earned it this tournament...

May be controversial of me, but you'll all be nodding quietly to yourselves even if you won't support it openly.

I'm not. Thought he was deservedly MotM against Italy, but will be surprised if he's considered player of the tournament.

[SecretFly]

I'd be extremley surprised if POM won it, he didn't turn up to the England game at all

To the victors, the spoils?

France beaten by more than they beat England by plus POM being heavily involved... plus 4 wins from 5 just like England seem to be on course for plus Championship

Yeah, I'd say that would add up to POM.  

But of course he'll have to struggle to convince the English aerials on the millions of Chimney pots.  We've heard all about them things and they have a pretty big influence on things

[Cowshot]

POM?

Did he play against England?

 

It ain't the How Well You Played Against England Award, Scrumpy  

And 3 points between suggests he didn't exactly go AWOL during the game either.

Maybe not. But he didn't exactly shine, either. It's possible he's in the "doing the unnoticed hard graft" camp, so I'm not saying 100% you're wrong. Either side could be suffering a bit of national bias in this debate...

[No9]

Very very fine margins....

If Faleteau and Lydiate had walked backwards from the first pen, rather than the schoolboy error of turning round, Care would not have run in test pen for a try.

If North had passed to Lydiate, rather than  kick behind the line, Lydiate would have been over in the corner.

If Jamie hadn't kicked to far, there was another chance.

Plus so so many silly handling errors....

There really wasn't that much difference in the teams, but England made more of their chances.

Well played England, you won that Triple Crown fair and square.... Look after it for us, we'll have it back next year. ;-)

Don't think you can say that the North-Lydiate chance would have been a definite try. At the time Farrell was coming over to cover Lydiate and might well have stopped him. One of the commentators I think the high pitched whiny Jonathan Davies pointed it out.

Will reserve judgement there, as haven't seen it on the TV yet, going from memory at the game... From what I remember if Lydiate had taken that a sprint and dive at the line and there was no way Farrell was going to stop Dan... But when I get to watch the recording or highlights I may change my mind...

But I still reckon it was closer than the score suggests...

[beshocked]

No 9 fair enough. I did watch it on TV and they showed that chance a couple of times. Farrell could have stopped him in my opinion. It's not as if Lydiate is one of the quickest players on the pitch or even the most potent ball carrier.

[Cowshot]

Very very fine margins....

If Faleteau and Lydiate had walked backwards from the first pen, rather than the schoolboy error of turning round, Care would not have run in test pen for a try.

If North had passed to Lydiate, rather than  kick behind the line, Lydiate would have been over in the corner.

If Jamie hadn't kicked to far, there was another chance.

Plus so so many silly handling errors....

There really wasn't that much difference in the teams, but England made more of their chances.

Well played England, you won that Triple Crown fair and square.... Look after it for us, we'll have it back next year. ;-)

Don't think you can say that the North-Lydiate chance would have been a definite try. At the time Farrell was coming over to cover Lydiate and might well have stopped him. One of the commentators I think the high pitched whiny Jonathan Davies pointed it out.

Will reserve judgement there, as haven't seen it on the TV yet, going from memory at the game... From what I remember if Lydiate had taken that a sprint and dive at the line and there was no way Farrell was going to stop Dan... But when I get to watch the recording or highlights I may change my mind...

But I still reckon it was closer than the score suggests...

Whereas I reckon only Halfpenny's magic boot gave Wales a semblance of respectability...we're not heading towards Welsh moral victory territory are we? I mean if you discount Gatland's game plan, Priestland, unaccountably poor kicking, fluffed chances and bad reffing, Wales might have won that... 

[Guest]

Very very fine margins....

If Faleteau and Lydiate had walked backwards from the first pen, rather than the schoolboy error of turning round, Care would not have run in test pen for a try.

If North had passed to Lydiate, rather than  kick behind the line, Lydiate would have been over in the corner.

If Jamie hadn't kicked to far, there was another chance.

Plus so so many silly handling errors....

There really wasn't that much difference in the teams, but England made more of their chances.

Well played England, you won that Triple Crown fair and square.... Look after it for us, we'll have it back next year. ;-)

Don't think you can say that the North-Lydiate chance would have been a definite try. At the time Farrell was coming over to cover Lydiate and might well have stopped him. One of the commentators I think the high pitched whiny Jonathan Davies pointed it out.

You did well to hear jiffy say it on commentary.

I do agree that Lydiate wouldn't have made it though. Unless he ran over the covering defender.

[rodders]

But I still reckon it was closer than the score suggests...

From a neutral I thought the scoreline flattered Wales who were lucky to be in the game at half time.

They did well to hang on and keep the score line respectable, given how intense England were, but I don't think they ever looked like winning the game.

That said I thought Hartley should have seen yellow for the tackle on Faletau (I think it was?) and that might have given them a chance to mount a come back. Wales were very poor though - both half backs had shockers.

[beshocked]

Very very fine margins....

If Faleteau and Lydiate had walked backwards from the first pen, rather than the schoolboy error of turning round, Care would not have run in test pen for a try.

If North had passed to Lydiate, rather than  kick behind the line, Lydiate would have been over in the corner.

If Jamie hadn't kicked to far, there was another chance.

Plus so so many silly handling errors....

There really wasn't that much difference in the teams, but England made more of their chances.

Well played England, you won that Triple Crown fair and square.... Look after it for us, we'll have it back next year. ;-)

Don't think you can say that the North-Lydiate chance would have been a definite try. At the time Farrell was coming over to cover Lydiate and might well have stopped him. One of the commentators I think the high pitched whiny Jonathan Davies pointed it out.

You did well to hear jiffy say it on commentary.

I do agree that Lydiate wouldn't have made it though. Unless he ran over the covering defender.

Fair enough.

No offence to Lydiate but I couldn't see him running over Farrell. If it was Faletau or Roberts perhaps but even then......

Sometimes Farrell doesn't make the cleanest/textbook tackles but he does slow down opposition till support can arrive.

Anyway we are talking about a hypothetical situation. Let's just say Wales would have preferred another player to be there instead of Lydiate if it was Cuthbert for example he might have been able to outpace the cover and score.

[Guest]

The only flanker I think might've made it would be Tipuric. It's all a moot point though aye

[Scrumpy]

That said I thought Hartley should have seen yellow for the tackle on Faletau (I think it was?) and that might have given them a chance to mount a come back. Wales were very poor though - both half backs had shockers.

Why?   

Toby jumped into the tackle, should have been a penalty to England.

[SecretFly]

Hartley..................... I'm not going to defend Hartley here am I?

Yes you are, Fly. Do the decent thing.

Hartley..... I think even the repeat slow-motions overplayed it. I didn't see an issue for a card.

[rodders]

That said I thought Hartley should have seen yellow for the tackle on Faletau (I think it was?) and that might have given them a chance to mount a come back. Wales were very poor though - both half backs had shockers.

Why?   

Toby jumped into the tackle, should have been a penalty to England.

Because it was a penalty to Wales and Hartley had been warned already for repeat offenses.

[SecretFly]

A lot of players tend to jump and collect their legs underneath them now as they reach for a ball in the air...ready to reap the benefits if caught.

I think that part should be stamped out as it can force innocent players to be caught up in often serious looking falls.  Don't give innocent players bad reputations by indulging in gamesmanship.

[quinsforever]

faletau jumped into a tackle. straightforwards mistake by poite. if it was a penalty against hartley then every single time someone receives a pass why wouldnt they jump as then they will get a penalty awarded to them for being tackled in the air.

absolutely ridiculous decision and was surprised no-one in the commentary team picked it up.

only when catching a kick is someone afforded the benefits of being able to land before being tackled. otherwise it's defined as jumping into the tackle, deemed dangerous, and penalty awarded to hartley.

[LondonTiger]

That said I thought Hartley should have seen yellow for the tackle on Faletau (I think it was?) and that might have given them a chance to mount a come back. Wales were very poor though - both half backs had shockers.

Why?   

Toby jumped into the tackle, should have been a penalty to England.

Because it was a penalty to Wales and Hartley had been warned already for repeat offenses.

Had he been warned for repeat offences. I cannot remember that.

[beshocked]

I thought penalty to Wales was correct decision though arguably could have been a yellow for Hartley simply because on the day he was a penalty machine.

Not a good game from him.

May and Nowell showed a tendency to get isolated.

England did give away some stupid penalties and with the deadly kicking of Halfpenny you cannot do that.

[quinsforever]

A lot of players tend to jump and collect their legs underneath them now as they reach for a ball in the air...ready to reap the benefits if caught.

I think that part should be stamped out as it can force innocent players to be caught up in often serious looking falls.  Don't give innocent players bad reputations by indulging in gamesmanship.

he caught a pass. if he chooses to be airborne when he receives the ball in a direct pass from someone on his team then that is exactly the same as jumping into the tackle.

[rodders]

It was his 3rd penalty in a row and he had been warned.

[LondonTiger]

FFS guys Faletau DID NOT jump into the tackle. He jumped to catch a goddawful pass.

By the laws Poite had little choice but to penalise Hartley.

Of course what we may now see is players giving "hospital" passes up high so the man has to jump and get the penalty. However how many people remember why this law was brought in in the first place? It was designed to protect the lineout jumper, but a smart coach somewhere (and possibly some former Aussie Rules players) realised that they coudl use this law and make the Full backs job easier. All of a sudden we saw people leaping into the sky to catch the ball. ally this to the change in the Calling Mark law whereby players did not have to be stationary and on the ground - and the game suddenly changed as a law change had unintended consequences.

[quinsforever]

I thought penalty to Wales was correct decision though arguably could have been a yellow for Hartley simply because on the day he was a penalty machine.

Not a good game from him.

May and Nowell showed a tendency to get isolated.

England did give away some stupid penalties and with the deadly kicking of Halfpenny you cannot do that.

no. if poite correctly awarded the penalty then every time a player receives a flat ball near the defensive line he can win a penalty by jumping. which he cant.

jumping into a tackle is a penalty and that's what happened. nothing more.

[Scrumpy]

It was his 3rd penalty in a row and he had been warned.

Never a yellow.

[quinsforever]

FFS guys Faletau DID NOT jump into the tackle. He jumped to catch a goddawful pass.

By the laws Poite had little choice but to penalise Hartley.

Of course what we may now see is players giving "hospital" passes up high so the man has to jump and get the penalty. However how many people remember why this law was brought in in the first place? It was designed to protect the lineout jumper, but a smart coach somewhere (and possibly some former Aussie Rules players) realised that they coudl use this law and make the Full backs job easier. All of a sudden we saw people leaping into the sky to catch the ball. ally this to the change in the Calling Mark law whereby players did not have to be stationary and on the ground - and the game suddenly changed as a law change had unintended consequences.

he didnt have to jump to catch the pass though did he. faletau wasnt contesting anything in the air. so penalty against for jumping into the tackle.

what's the difference between that and someone jumping high into the air to catch a ball at waist height? nothing. both are jumping into the tackle if they have the ball in their hands.

[LondonTiger]

It was his 3rd penalty in a row and he had been warned.

Just gone back to Iplayer and Poite does not give him a warning after the second offence. Of course the fact that half time was inbetween the second and third and they were different styles of offences would have worked in his favour (not saying it should, but it would)

[Sgt_Pooly]

POM?

Did he play against England?

 

It ain't the How Well You Played Against England Award, Scrumpy  

And 3 points between suggests he didn't exactly go AWOL during the game either.

This makes little sense.

To win player of the 6N you generally need to perform every game or at least not play badly. POM was poor against England, so if it's the play well in every game except England you have a point.

Also what does Ireland losing by only 3pts have to do with POM going AWOL? It doesn't suggest anything as he's one of 15 players. If a side wins by 20pts does it automatically suggest everybody had a great game?

Bizarre statement.

[Scratch]

faletau jumped into a tackle. straightforwards mistake by poite. if it was a penalty against hartley then every single time someone receives a pass why wouldnt they jump as then they will get a penalty awarded to them for being tackled in the air.

absolutely ridiculous decision and was surprised no-one in the commentary team picked it up.

only when catching a kick is someone afforded the benefits of being able to land before being tackled. otherwise it's defined as jumping into the tackle, deemed dangerous, and penalty awarded to hartley.

he jumped to catch the ball and was tackled in mid air. penalty correctly awarded to Faletau.

[LondonTiger]

FFS guys Faletau DID NOT jump into the tackle. He jumped to catch a goddawful pass.

By the laws Poite had little choice but to penalise Hartley.

Of course what we may now see is players giving "hospital" passes up high so the man has to jump and get the penalty. However how many people remember why this law was brought in in the first place? It was designed to protect the lineout jumper, but a smart coach somewhere (and possibly some former Aussie Rules players) realised that they coudl use this law and make the Full backs job easier. All of a sudden we saw people leaping into the sky to catch the ball. ally this to the change in the Calling Mark law whereby players did not have to be stationary and on the ground - and the game suddenly changed as a law change had unintended consequences.

he didnt have to jump to catch the pass though did he. faletau wasnt contesting anything in the air. so penalty against for jumping into the tackle.

what's the difference between that and someone jumping high into the air to catch a ball at waist height? nothing. both are jumping into the tackle if they have the ball in their hands.

The ball is above Faletaus head. Does he need to jump, I have no idea - but then most of the time Full backs have no need to jump in the air either. Hartley was unlucky to be penalised for this, but by the letter of the law it was correct.

[Scrumpy]

faletau jumped into a tackle. straightforwards mistake by poite. if it was a penalty against hartley then every single time someone receives a pass why wouldnt they jump as then they will get a penalty awarded to them for being tackled in the air.

absolutely ridiculous decision and was surprised no-one in the commentary team picked it up.

only when catching a kick is someone afforded the benefits of being able to land before being tackled. otherwise it's defined as jumping into the tackle, deemed dangerous, and penalty awarded to hartley.

he jumped to catch the ball and was tackled in mid air. penalty correctly awarded to Faletau.

Wrong call from the Ref.

[quinsforever]

additionally faletau was moving FORWARDS. had he only been jumping straight up then he is protected like lineout jumpers and catch receivers (who are also sometimes moving forwards but usually contesting the catch). the fact that he was running forwards and jumped to catch a PASS he didnt need to jump to catch made it clearly dangerous.

not defending hartley, couldnt care less about him. live at the time i thought Poite's decision a massive howler and if upheld sets a terrible precedent for how to win penalties.

[Scratch]

Reading through this thread it's like a bunch of vultures sitting on a tree waiting for someone to drop dead…..cue dragon carcass gags. Yawn.

[quinsforever]

faletau jumped into a tackle. straightforwards mistake by poite. if it was a penalty against hartley then every single time someone receives a pass why wouldnt they jump as then they will get a penalty awarded to them for being tackled in the air.

absolutely ridiculous decision and was surprised no-one in the commentary team picked it up.

only when catching a kick is someone afforded the benefits of being able to land before being tackled. otherwise it's defined as jumping into the tackle, deemed dangerous, and penalty awarded to hartley.

he jumped to catch the ball and was tackled in mid air. penalty correctly awarded to Faletau.

Wrong call from the Ref.

indeed. what you miss scratch is that it was a PASS (not kick or lineout) intended for him that he had to stretch for (not jump) and he chose to jump.

if your simplistic interpretation were correct then every 12 and 13 would jump into the air while receiving the first pass and win an immediate penalty.

[Sgt_Pooly]

You're a fine one to talk the amount of bile you've spouted off over the weeks.

Lions players, England can't score against Wales etc etc.

You look pretty foolish now Scratch son

[Scrumpy]

Toby had no need to jump, penalty should have gone to England.

Poor refereeing, but we'll let him off this time  seeing the result went the right way.

Did I heard the crowd chanting boring boring Wales when they went for the penalty?

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