Aviva Premiership - Round 22

First topic message reminder :

Sat 10th May 15:15 Harlequins   v  Bath Rugby - BT Sport
Sat 10th May 15:15 Leicester Tigers   v  Saracens
Sat 10th May 15:15 London Irish   v  Sale Sharks
Sat 10th May 15:15 Newcastle Falcons   v  Exeter Chiefs
Sat 10th May 15:15 Northampton Saints v  London Wasps - BT Sport
Sat 10th May 15:15 Worcester Warriors   v  Gloucester Rugby

Pos PTS
1 Saracens 85
2 Northampton Saints 73
3 Leicester Tigers 69
4 Bath Rugby 66
5 Harlequins 63
6 Sale Sharks 56
7 London Wasps 49
8 Gloucester Rugby 42
9 Exeter Chiefs 41
10 London Irish 32
11 Newcastle Falcons 22
12 Worcester Warriors 12

I think Slater and Kitchener as a pair are better than any pair Saints have but Day and Lawes are their best.

Well played quins, tough on bath but we lost our momentum several weeks ago, oh well we still have the amlin to look forward too, hopefully we can get some of our injured players back.

West, Tigers normally rotate their wingers so that they have one fullback style winger ala Morris, Scully and Hamilton and then one physical winger ala Goneva, Benjamin and Thompstone. It's generally been the Cockers tactic for some time. Today Benjamin was injured and Goneva rested so Scully got in as the form option whilst Morris is first choice and coming back from injury and into form.

I've just read our match report on the Wasps' website. It sounds like Saints just expected to turn up and roll over a 2nd string Wasps. They then gave away two tries from charge downs.




And then rolled us over big time. That score sounds like abject capitulation and that is unacceptable.

I know we have an important ECC play off against Stade, but I expect better from whoever pulls on the black and gold.

Contrast our result with Sarries, who put out a 2/3rd team and still got within 4 points of Tigers at fortress Welford Road.

Sam to be honest in am not worried that our 3rd choice LH who has had little to no game time struggled. Plus Johnston was in a 7 man scrum surely?

Not much worries me about the Sarries side at the moment. Good game time for the squad as a whole and another 2 points to the AP tally. Strength in depth pleases me.

Delighted for Quins. No disrespect to Bath at all who have really come on this season but I love watching Quins play and they've really done it when it matters in the last few weeks.

The Wasps/Saints game sounds like it's worth watching the highlights!

Just read about Melcks red card. Apparently, the 'victim' has said he never voiced a complaint and that Melck was touching the bottom of his face and they didn't bother consulting the TMO? Even Cockerill has said it shouldnt have been a card. Cockerill for crying out loud!

Should be funny how this all plays out. Why are TMO's given these new powers if we only use them for slightly late hits or seeing a forward pass in slow mo 4 phases before a try. Just outrageous.

/rant

formerly known as Sam wrote:West, Tigers normally rotate their wingers so that they have one fullback style winger ala Morris, Scully and Hamilton and then one physical winger ala Goneva, Benjamin and Thompstone. It's generally been the Cockers tactic for some time. Today Benjamin was injured and Goneva rested so Scully got in as the form option whilst Morris is first choice and coming back from injury and into form.

What do you make of Scully?

Seemed ok today.

Sarries were gifted three tries Hound. Two By Waldrom (thanks for taking him Exeter) and one by a bizarre decision from the ref where Tigers holding up a Sarries maul over the try line was worthy of a penalty try despite no advantage being played before the Sarries players crashed to earth trying to ground the ball.

Beshocked Sarries generally put eight men in the scrum throughout and relied upon their line speed to get them out of trouble. Defence from Sarries was pretty good they just couldn't hold onto the ball for long enough. They went so hard in the first twenty minutes that the forwards looked a bit tired after that. The first ten they looked like they were going to blow us away. Spencer and Hodgson both worked well together and were Sarries best players, really good. Thought the yellow card was a touch harsh as well as the tackle was only a degree past the horizontal, there were worse tackles that only given as penalties.

Still pleased our 22 year old third choice tight head got one over on Gill a Welsh international and then switched sides with a 19 year old at tight head and drove back Johnston and Barrington. Though by that point it was fairly late on 70ish mins and our pack probably weighed a bit more. Positive from a Tigers squad development point of view. I doubt Sarries coaching staff will care.

West, I think Scully is a good find. Rock solid under the high ball, makes his tackles, kicks well and is a handful ball in hand. Not a game changer but gives options on the wing like the cross field and is a tactical asset (see the Clermont game).

Are Wasps right now as bad as today's score line suggests or are Northampton just really good nowadays?

Commiserations Bath, the same was done to us a few seasons back by Tigers and it is gutting.

Really good game from Quins pov. Still left a lot of points left out there but looking at where we were 6 months ago the turn around is phenomenal.

I love Scully. One of the hardest working wingers I've ever seen, and is excellent in the air. Not enough X-Factor to be a real star, but a great club man.

By my count Waldrom had a hand in 20 of Saracens points. 3 tries (2 converted) and a penalty. Nightmare.

Disappointed the score became so close due to our own mistakes, but there was little riding on it. Better to get a scruffy game out of the way with here than next week. Kudos to Sarries for not rolling over.

Scoped wrote:Just read about Melcks red card. Apparently, the 'victim' has said he never voiced a complaint and that Melck was touching the bottom of his face and they didn't bother consulting the TMO? Even Cockerill has said it shouldnt have been a card. Cockerill for crying out loud!

Should be funny how this all plays out. Why are TMO's given these new powers if we only use them for slightly late hits or seeing a forward pass in slow mo 4 phases before a try. Just outrageous.

/rant

for all his flaws Cockers is always pretty honest so i'm a little puzzled as to why your insinuating he isn't?

I can see why they didn't consult the TMO (Although i think they should off in this case), this weekends games seem to have swung the other way in that they are not using the TMO at important moments. I think they've done this from the moans of constant TMO use. It's a tricky situation we have and it's just going to bounce from one side to the other.

The Saint wrote:Are Wasps right now as bad as today's score line suggests or are Northampton just really good nowadays?

Bit of both really, Wasps also didn't field a strong team as they have the qualifier to play.

And I suspect Wasps conceded a few tries and preceded to just bend over.

nathan wrote:

Scoped wrote:Just read about Melcks red card. Apparently, the 'victim' has said he never voiced a complaint and that Melck was touching the bottom of his face and they didn't bother consulting the TMO? Even Cockerill has said it shouldnt have been a card. Cockerill for crying out loud!

Should be funny how this all plays out. Why are TMO's given these new powers if we only use them for slightly late hits or seeing a forward pass in slow mo 4 phases before a try. Just outrageous.

/rant

for all his flaws Cockers is always pretty honest so i'm a little puzzled as to why your insinuating he isn't?

I can see why they didn't consult the TMO (Although i think they should off in this case), this weekends games seem to have swung the other way in that they are not using the TMO at important moments. I think they've done this from the moans of constant TMO use. It's a tricky situation we have and it's just going to bounce from one side to the other.

When the opposing coach who is often outspoken disagrees with a decision that benefited his team in a tight game, it should be made noteworthy.

I honestly can't see why the didn't go to the TMO, it was for a foul play event that the ref didn't witness, the only person who saw it, or really did not see it, was an assistant ref on the touchline away from the action. The constant moans are for stupid forward passes or if someone has been rotate 90.5 degrees in a tackle, I'm not sure anyone would moan about a potential gouging that took place that would warrant a red.

I think the AR told the ref what had happened and he just acted on what he was told. If the AR says something has happened you have to trust them otherwise why have them? Maybe the AR should have said "you need to check for..." but there you go.

I would like to see a clip of the incident. I suppose that might be difficult because the match was not televised.

http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/ its on the full match about 55 mins in.

Yea there were a couple of instances in the Quins game where the TMO either couldn't or didn't want to show the replays for events, looks like they're (the IRB) are trying to speed up TMO use after the whinging from certain parties.

As mentioned it's more the over use for potential tries and instances like the Easter "off the ball tackle" that annoy people.

Watched the clip and had to go back a few times. Didn't see anything offensive. Weird.
Maybe it looked different for the Assistant referee's angle.

Oh and well done to Wuss managing their second win of the season, it's not really much but a nice send off for departing players and at least they got off the zero mark.

Well done Quins, as a Bath fan I'm pretty disappointed with that, with a little bit more composure we could have won that. Quite why the drop goal was taken when it was I'll never know...!
Good luck against Sarries, sadly I think whoever had won yesterday may be in for a bit of a kicking up there.

For Bath, I hope Saints win and are distracted for the amlin final. Hopefully Louw will be back too, Fearns was brilliant yesterday and Louw would compliment that nicely.

Does anyone think the prl will have a word with wasps following that thrashing about weakened teams etc?

Bathman_in_London wrote:Well done Quins, as a Bath fan I'm pretty disappointed with that, with a little bit more composure we could have won that. Quite why the drop goal was taken when it was I'll never know...!
Good luck against Sarries, sadly I think whoever had won yesterday may be in for a bit of a kicking up there.

For Bath, I hope Saints win and are distracted for the amlin final. Hopefully Louw will be back too, Fearns was brilliant yesterday and Louw would compliment that nicely.

Does anyone think the prl will have a word with wasps following that thrashing about weakened teams etc?

I was wondering the same thing.  That was not Saints best XV out there.  I don't like seeing any team getting rolled like that.  On the other hand, even a mostly back-up game day team in the Premiership should be able to prevent a team from putting up 70 points.  

I thought Dai Young's post-match comments were amusing. After he put out the team which got splashed like that, I would have expected Dai Young to show a little more class than to say Saints are a limited team.  What does that say about his players?

Bathman_in_London wrote:Well done Quins, as a Bath fan I'm pretty disappointed with that, with a little bit more composure we could have won that. Quite why the drop goal was taken when it was I'll never know...!
Good luck against Sarries, sadly I think whoever had won yesterday may be in for a bit of a kicking up there.

Cheers Bathite, I thought you really missed Louw and Webber. Both would have brought the composure and direction you guys lacked at key times while Webber may have sorted your misfiring lineout. Not sure what Ford was thinking with that drop goal as you'd been working the phases well and seemed to have a good understanding of Barnes so weren't at risk there. On the other hand the other 79mins of his Fords game had been class, even with our targetting him and some of Mo's suspect leading with the forearm.

Banahan on the wing is useless though, thought he would have been better swapping positions with JJ who was also pretty anonymous.

doctor_grey wrote:  
I thought Dai Young's post-match comments were amusing.  After he put out the team which got splashed like that, I would have expected Dai Young to show a little more class than to say Saints are a limited team.  What does that say about his players?  

Very odd comments from him! Although I am shocked North's only scored 5 this season.

North was not a dominant force in the Premiership.  Had some nice individual games, but never set the league afire.  In fact, some of Saints other wings were more impressive.  The ball did get to him on plenty of occasions, so his performance was not adversely effected by game plan.  In fact, it was a key part of the game plan when he actually suited up for the team to put the ball in his hands and let him go.  

North did bring two very important things to Saints this season, neither of which should be minimised:
First, instant credibility as a big time team.  His presence sent a message of intent both to the team and the rest of the league.
Second, he draws attention and pulls defenders towards him opening up space elsewhere.  

Hopefully, he can contribute a bit more in the playoffs and next season.  Then he can really show his worth.

I really hope Bath Rugby at all levels learns their lessons from this season and that the pain of yesterday's defeat stays with them even if they win the Amlin final. It might sound cruel but such defeats are often the required bedrock that future success can be built on.

The question is how patient will the owner be and even if he is, will the current set up, players and coaches, be able to deliver the necessary progress to achieve success?

My concern is the perception/reality that Bath are a buying club and that actually, though in the modern game financial backing is a necessity, a culture is what really delivers success.

What's the culture like at Bath? Other then the Eastmond/Gold spats I always thought it was quite strong, yes they've come undone a little but I don't think that's a team culture thing, more to do with tactics (not getting enough bp's) and key players missing at key times. And that Sale game.

They were a bad decision to go for a DG away from a possible SF even at the end!

This Bath side should learn from this and be back stronger next season. I don't think culture/personnel is a problem. I think they'll be a strong contender for years to come. Craig just needs to be patient.

They lack depth in key areas but that should come in time. Guys like Ford and Watson will be more experienced next season and more prepared.

Bath just need one or two more big ball carriers. One in the forward and one in the backs. Little bit of depth in the tight five as well. Then they should be in good shape.

Burgess will be one big ball career. They just one additional.

Culture seems to be fine although Bruce Craig has forced out two world class managers in Meehan and gold both which I rate higher than ford. Meehan had bath on the right track playing some of the best rugby in years and gold has made some fantastic signings and made our pack in the mould of great saffa club teams. Ford I worry is carrying a bit of his Johnson era experience with him playing favourites who are out of form like banahan and hooper and changing the 11-15 every game. His signings  so far for next season will leave us weaker than this year.

Sirtidychris disagree. Meehan had the Bath job for a while and didn't make meaningful progress. World class really?

Gold hasn't had too much success to be rated as world class.

Can't say I am Fords biggest fan but fair play to him for putting Bath in a good position to fight for silverware next season.

Sam I think it's just about getting the right balance and building some strength in depth. Bath need their highly rated backs to perform better. Guys like Eastmond, Ford and Watson have been hyped up - time to deliver - next season is their opportunity.

On paper Bath should be able to compete but things aren't quite clicking. Not yet the right balance. Agreed - ball carriers are always useful but you need the leaders and gel like players to bring things together.

I don't see a true leader yet in the Bath backline IMO. More needed in the forwards too.

Every team has standard bearers - they aren't necessarily the monster ball carriers.

If Bath had better on pitch leadership, would Ford have gone for that DG?

Probably not but if he had landed it..... To be honest Bath should have really sealed a playoff spot. A tailing off in form has allowed Quins to pip them at the post.

Ford is still a young man, he should be a better player in a year. More experience - should see him progress.

Meehan made huge inroads at bath leading them to the first silverware in 10 years in the challenge cup and getting to the playoffs in successive years ! Which we haven't done since !, the rugby was expansive fast and exciting which after years of relegation battles and utter stodge under Conolly and Foley was great. World class might be over egging it for meehan and gold but all ford has done is inherit a very good squad which Gary gold put together, then play guys like hooper, banahan and leave eastmond out entirely in our most important game of the year. I don't think he's awful just unproven and not better than the previous guys that were ousted.

It's a tough one. How many first choice Bath players would get into the starting spots of their top 4 rivals?

A lot of Bath players have the potential/promise but IMO have not yet delivered as an unit or individuals.

Ford Jr has had a good season but even he has been overshadowed by other 10s this season.

Perhaps Ford Sr is to blame but I just feel that with some players there is just not enough experience yet as a squad. In time with more game time together they should improve.

Bath do have decent players, I just feel Ford Sr just needs a bit more time to shape this squad and improve what he's got.

The strength of Saracens squad compared to 2 years is immense for example. Bath could improve similarly.

I think your right how many times have Northampton, tigers, sarries and quins been in the playoffs in recent years its almost the same 4 every time, winning playoff rugby comes with experience and bath and ford will learn. I'm certainly not saying ford should be kicked out just in terms of club culture Craig is an impatient man. Next year a few tweaks and some lessons learned and hopefully we may see improvement in the squad and the stadium debacle.

I don't think there is much wrong with bath, we've just been unlucky with injuries and a little loss of confidence at the wrong time of the season, as a squad we are still learning, it will come.

Scrumpy wrote:I don't think there is much wrong with bath, we've just been unlucky with injuries and a little loss of confidence at the wrong time of the season, as a squad we are still learning, it will come.

Huge gamble to have Ford coaching with his son as the golden boy, I can imagine this is a reason for resentment within the squad.

Spent 250k plus on a vanity player.

Bath rugby are Craig's play thing.

They're nothing but flat track bullies who back down when stood up to.

The coaches have no proven history of wining.

...................

Ok all very harsh and provocative and generally very unfair analysis, but the point is Bath are at a crucial stage in this teams development. Everyone needs to step up and deliver, one and all.

Sirtidychris might be the same 4 teams in the playoffs but only 1 can win. For Saints and Saracens in particular it will be a failure if they gain no silverware this season as they have 2 shots at silverware.

Bath still have a shot at silverware - let's not forget.

So long as Sarries (alleged cap cheats) don't win now that Bath (alleged cap cheats) are gone, I really don't care.

So c'mon you Quins and let's have a proper final between two proper sides.

Thank goodness that season is over with. I could have coped with it if our expectations had been managed, but instead we had lofty thoughts of a top 4 finish. Looking back that truly is a ludicrous aim given the performances of this year, but we have been a shadow of ourselves from last season. Next season, however, is a truly different matter; with Hibbard, Afoa and Laidlaw we will surely be a top 4 side...   

Genuine commiserations to my neighbours. I have also felt the need to avoid any form of mickey taking given our last result! Whilst Ford et al have received criticism, it was always going to be a challenge to break into what is now looking a rather established top 4.

Thank goodness that season is over with.

Ill second that one HK...  

beshocked wrote:This Bath side should learn from this and be back stronger next season. I don't think culture/personnel is a problem. I think they'll be a strong contender for years to come. Craig just needs to be patient.

They lack depth in key areas but that should come in time. Guys like Ford and Watson will be more experienced next season and more prepared.

Bath's salary cap busting team have underperformed. Simple as that really.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:This Bath side should learn from this and be back stronger next season. I don't think culture/personnel is a problem. I think they'll be a strong contender for years to come. Craig just needs to be patient.

They lack depth in key areas but that should come in time. Guys like Ford and Watson will be more experienced next season and more prepared.

Bath's salary cap busting team have underperformed. Simple as that really.

If only everything in life was that simple, eh Jimpy?

Bathite wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:This Bath side should learn from this and be back stronger next season. I don't think culture/personnel is a problem. I think they'll be a strong contender for years to come. Craig just needs to be patient.

They lack depth in key areas but that should come in time. Guys like Ford and Watson will be more experienced next season and more prepared.

Bath's salary cap busting team have underperformed. Simple as that really.

If only everything in life was that simple, eh Jimpy?

Just plesed Quins pipped Bath, now that half of the semi-finals will at least be competetive.

Jimpy wrote:

Bathite wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:This Bath side should learn from this and be back stronger next season. I don't think culture/personnel is a problem. I think they'll be a strong contender for years to come. Craig just needs to be patient.

They lack depth in key areas but that should come in time. Guys like Ford and Watson will be more experienced next season and more prepared.

Bath's salary cap busting team have underperformed. Simple as that really.

If only everything in life was that simple, eh Jimpy?

Just plesed Quins pipped Bath, now that half of the semi-finals will at least be competetive.

Bath's fault is they didn't buy people farms to get round the cap. Glass houses and all that

HongKongCherry wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Bathite wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:This Bath side should learn from this and be back stronger next season. I don't think culture/personnel is a problem. I think they'll be a strong contender for years to come. Craig just needs to be patient.

They lack depth in key areas but that should come in time. Guys like Ford and Watson will be more experienced next season and more prepared.

Bath's salary cap busting team have underperformed. Simple as that really.

If only everything in life was that simple, eh Jimpy?

Just plesed Quins pipped Bath, now that half of the semi-finals will at least be competetive.

Bath's fault is they didn't buy people farms to get round the cap. Glass houses and all that

Well, come the final, maybe Saracens wont have finished all those points clear only to chuck it all away. I can't imagine what numpty team would do that...