Residency and the June tours: an assessment based on snow conditions.

I've decided to keep track of the impact of professional rugby on national sides. The list below is an irrational, biased attempt at grading teams based on the number of players who qualify through residency linked to rugby (i.e. rugby schools and/or contracts). Players born in, or with qualifying via parents don't count.

The grades are
0 players = Pure as the driven snow
1 player = Yellow snow
2 players = Brown stain
3 players = A steaming pile
4 players = Lots of brown stuff
4+ players = Health warning


France - Brown stain
NZ - Yellow snow
Australia - Steaming pile
Ireland - Brown stain

France named a 31 man training squad to tour Australia. It looks like five players were born outside of France. Dusautoir (Ivory Coast), Nyanga (Zaire) and Ouedraogo (Bukina Faso) all arrived in France before high school. Le Roux is a South African who came to play rugby. Debaty is from Belgium and also came to France to play professionally. I'm not sure if Debaty's parents are French.

NZ named a 35 man training squad to play England. Four players were born outside of NZ. Kaino (American Samoa) and Ben Franks (Australia) arrived in the country under the age of 5. Kerr-Barlow arrived from Australia's northern territories at 13 to attend boarding school, but his parents are Kiwis. Fekitoa arrived as a high school kid, he could play for Tonga.

Australia named a 32 man squad to play France. Six players were born outside of Australia. Moore (Saudi Arabia to Irish parents), Lealiifano and Skelton arrived in Australia before they started high school. Cowan emigrated from New Zealand when he was 16, Genia came to boarding school in Australia from Papua New Guinea and Kuridrani arrived when he was 16. The merits of Cowan and Kuridrani could be debated but I'm leaving them in for the meantime.

Ireland have named a 30 man squad to tour Argentina. Five players are born outside of Ireland. Heaslip (Isreal) and Murphy (Spain) were born to Irish parents and moved back to Ireland before they turned 10. Marmion was born in Wales and grew up in England but has Irish parents. Diack and Herring are South Africans who came to Ireland to play rugby. I know that Herring qualifies via ancestry. But as far as I can tell it's via grandparents so doesn't pass my biased muster.

These ratings are for the 2014 June tours only. The post will be updated with other teams when they are named (if I can be bothered and get around to it).

Debaty's parent are Belgium. He did turn pro in France (started playing late at 15 at amateur level in Brussels before getting picked up by some La Rochelle scouts who were touring there).

whocares wrote:Debaty's parent are Belgium. He did turn pro in France (started playing late at 15 at amateur level in Brussels before getting picked up by some La Rochelle scouts who were touring there).

A brown stain it is then.

brown stain does not sound very appealing though!

What about someone like Manu who came over at 13 to stay with his brothers, who were over for rugby (did he get a rugby scholarship or not? Don't know). Or the Vunipolas who came over because their dad came over for rugby.

Well England will probably Mako and Billy Vunipola and Brad Barritt.

But it depends how you assess Manu and Hartleys qualification criteria which i believe are fine.

Ill say 3 for the moment - so we're a steaming pile....and improvement from the days of Flutey, Hape, Henry Paul etc etc...when we'd be global toxic hazard....!

HammerofThunor wrote:What about someone like Manu who came over at 13 to stay with his brothers, who were over for rugby (did he get a rugby scholarship or not? Don't know). Or the Vunipolas who came over because their dad came over for rugby.

Surely Manu, like Hartley, learnt the majority of their rugby here in this country and travelled due to non rugby reasons as youngsters.

Mako and Billy were in England at the same age or before Manu was. so if he doesn't count they don't. And Barritt has English parents so he wouldn't count either. so England may well be as pure as the driven snow.

We'll never be pure as driven snow...no way jose!!

If it's based on residency qualified people who came relaively late (rugby scholarship or job) then their won't be many.  Recently it's been:

Hape, Flutey, Vainikolo...anyone else?  All the rest came over as kids (Tuilagi, Vunipolas) or already qualified (Barritt, Hartley) or came over for non-rugby work (Botha) [and that's counting Rugby League jobs as rugby related (Hape, Vainikolo)]

Barritt's parents are Rhodesian so he qualifies through their British passport but it's tenuous. Could throw Yarde in their for coming over as a kid. Kvesic through an accident of birth is German I think.

The South African government doesn't see Beast Mtwarira as a transformation player as he is an immigrant citizen, so I guess you could then argue SA is still snow white

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barritt's parents are Rhodesian so he qualifies through their British passport but it's tenuous. Could throw Yarde in their for coming over as a kid. Kvesic through an accident of birth is German I think.

Passport has absolutely zip to do with IRB qualification. Just checked and he said his grandparents were born in England so that's his link, so still doesn't count under this.

the key aspect is where the players learnt their trade which is more relevant than their actual passport(s) in my opinion.
so Hartley and barrit would make England brown-ish. After all I could claim Le Roux as partly french as he probably has some French ancestor that emigrate to the cape in the 17th century.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barritt's parents are Rhodesian so he qualifies through their British passport but it's tenuous. Could throw Yarde in their for coming over as a kid. Kvesic through an accident of birth is German I think.

Lets be fair about that then.... (former) Rhodesians are the most patriotic Brits I know. These people maintain traditions that the motherland have lost years ago. Most of the old chaps fought for GB during WWII, many rotting now in old aged homes around SA & crucially Zim, they came to their ancestral home's need then, but their ain't no reply in kind now.

A bit of a divergenant but its a bit of a sore spot for me... no relations in Zim but these people have been conveniently forgotton.

Is Barritt counting in this or not through grandparents then? TBH I missed the bit about parents not counting so ignore Kvesic.

Barritts mother is english born,Mouritz botha and hendrie fourie can be added to the list.

FA......The British establishment is very skilled in conveniently 'forgetting' about people.

A British passport doesn't mean you qualify for England.......

Just to note Dussatoirs father is French and Ouedraogo has been in France from the age of 5. Cant find any reference to Nyanga as to when he arrived (edit - Nyanga was two)

Cant understand why they are taking Leroux he isnt very good.

Botha didn't come here for rugby, he moved to work and started playing amateur rugby before being picked up by the pro Bedford side. Fourie came over and started working as a teaching assistant before he got a pro contract. Not sure if they count in this.

They may have come over to work in other professions but only because they hadn't been offered pro contracts.They used it as a foot in the door and won pro contracts by showing their talents.im not knocking them for it.

Sgt Poorly, I was wrong, I held my hands up. Still not convinced he has an English mum though, he has never mentioned it while saying his grandparents are. Is she English as her parents were, as Barritt is? If he has kids abroad would they automatically become English? I'm going to stop thinking about it as I have a headache. He did learn his rugby in SA though.

HammerofThunor wrote:If it's based on residency qualified people who came relaively late (rugby scholarship or job) then their won't be many.  Recently it's been:

Hape, Flutey, Vainikolo...anyone else? All the rest came over as kids (Tuilagi, Vunipolas) or already qualified (Barritt, Hartley) or came over for non-rugby work (Botha) [and that's counting Rugby League jobs as rugby related (Hape, Vainikolo)]

Henry Paul?

Waldrom.

No side is pure white. Technically Western Samoa is in your health warning category but nobody's going to begrudge them of that.

I think what is attracting people to this debate is the perception that there are more and more players arriving late in the scene who have already been developed by other countries and are being integrated into other national squads whose links to these players are tenuous.

I don't have a problem with a player deciding to play professional rugby for a club. I don't think that warrants selection for a national squad based on three years residency. The IRB would do well to look at the conditions to play sevens for rugby in the Olympics and consider that these are reasonable demands to be set for union players.

Let's just wait until it plays out. I'd be quite keen to get through through the sides before the post gets frozen.

Henry Paul was before my time and started playing for England over a decade ago (but yes he would count).

Waldrum qualified on grandparents not residency.

Blackcanlion, I think it would be more interesting to discount residency completely. Just look at which players were 'developed' in that country (which is more important for me).

So Waldrum, Barritt, Patterson, would all muddy the snow. It's impossible to defined real cultural attachment on the general scale as each case is independent.

Who developed a player can be pretty clear cut. Although with guys like Hartley (came over a 16 year old prop) it could be tricky. But he would be treated the same as Fekitoa. It's irrelevant (to me) that Hartley's mum is English (but probably) not to him).

Right on cue...

I notice that Nathan Hughes hasnt been selected in the Fiji squad for the WC qualifier v the Cook Islands?

Can we read anything in to that?

Ie Does that mean that hes either choosing Samoa...or tempted by a 3 year residency and going for an England spot(which i sincerely hope not!)

Surely he should be putting himself forward for his home country to help them qualify and then play in (hopefully) a cracking WC in England?

Waldrum only discovered he had and Englsih grandparent when he wanted to play for them.

For the current Irish tour Diack is the only one who qualifiies through residency but at least he has been here 6 years.
Herring is the only one qualifying through parentage

The rest of the squad are 'Pure as the driven snow' I think

Waldrum only discovered he had and Englsih grandparent when he wanted to play for them.

Geoff, im afraid im one of the brigade that thinks you shouldnt be able to qualify on Grandparent rules.

geoff998rugby wrote:Waldrum only discovered  he had and Englsih grandparent when he wanted to play for them.

For the current Irish tour Diack is the only one who qualifiies through residency but at least he has been here 6 years.
Herring is the only one qualifying through parentage

The rest of the squad are 'Pure as the driven snow' I think

That's my point. The original article was only considering those who qualified via residency due to rugby contracts/scholarship. Waldrum doesn't come under that, even though (IMO) he's the one I would rather the rules didn't allow to play for England over all others.

geoff998rugby wrote:Waldrum only discovered  he had and Englsih grandparent when he wanted to play for them.

For the current Irish tour Diack is the only one who qualifiies through residency but at least he has been here 6 years.
Herring is the only one qualifying through parentage

The rest of the squad are 'Pure as the driven snow' I think

That's my point. The original article was only considering those who qualified via residency due to rugby contracts/scholarship. Waldrum doesn't come under that, even though (IMO) he's the one I would rather the rules didn't allow to play for England over all others.

Updated with Ireland and Australia. May get around to doing Scotland and South Africa.

I have it on good authority that a number of players may well have been conceived outside of their birth country - any northern hemisphere players born in Mar/Apr/May or SH players born in Aug/Sep/Oct could well have been created in foreign parts.

In reality, a provisional health warning may have to be issued to all of the Tier One countries pending the outcome of this investigation - sowing seeds of doubt as to whether any country is really pure as the driven snow..........

Some people have said that this assessment is a crock of sh$&, that I am taking the pi$&, and that my perspective is biased and literally frozen.

I'm confident Argentina will come out of this well.

If you're counting Grandparent and residency players as 'dirty snow' if they arrived on rugby contract/scholarship it's as good as anything. Personally I'd count parents in there as well but that's just me

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Waldrum only discovered he had and Englsih grandparent when he wanted to play for them.

Geoff, im afraid im one of the brigade that thinks you shouldnt be able to qualify on Grandparent rules.

I agree or at the very least there should be a qualification period.
Maybe something like normal residency is 5 years and a GrandParent takes 1 year of of that i.e. 4.
Immediate qualification is a joke.

Clarification on the OP.

Conor Murray according to the links I have read was born in Limerick not Wales.
As for Murphy and Heaslip were both aged in single digits before returning

geoff998rugby wrote:Clarification on the OP.

Conor Murray according to the links I have read was born in Limerick not Wales.
As for Murphy and Heaslip were both aged in single digits before returning

Well spotted. Should have been Kieran Marmion who I believe was born in Brecon and went to school in Lancashire. Eitherway his parents are Irish so he's a paddy in my books. Pretty much the same point I made with Murphy and Heaslip, but I changed the wording for you.

HammerofThunor wrote:If you're counting Grandparent and residency players as 'dirty snow' if they arrived on rugby contract/scholarship it's as good as anything. Personally I'd count parents in there as well but that's just me

I'm only counting birth, parents and non rugby school. It's a bit difficult with the last. I'll probably just fire it out there and see if someone else knows (e.g. Kuridrani and Cowan). Everyone's going to draw a line differently. I'm just throwing the information out there as I thought it might be interesting in the long run. It might actually be a non event. Anyway people can make up their own minds if they're at all interested.

blackcanelion wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Clarification on the OP.

Conor Murray according to the links I have read was born in Limerick not Wales.
As for Murphy and Heaslip were both aged in single digits before returning

Well spotted. Should have been Kieran Marmion who I believe was born in Brecon and went to school in Lancashire. Eitherway his parents are Irish so he's a paddy in my books. Pretty much the same point I made with Murphy and Heaslip, but I changed the wording for you.

Thanks - you had me confused for a minute their