The provinces are forbidden to cite each other by the IRFU.

Well, according to Notch and repeated by rodders relating to non-appearance of Kearney before the disciplinary committee after the recent Ulster v Leinster game, it's true.

I feel that this is worthy of a broader debate.

In the past the Tigers for instance, had a policy of not citing anyone but that was overtaken I believe by the Jeff ruling that independent citing officers to make the decision.

But it is surely wrong for the IRFU to dictate to the provinces that they should not cite fellow Irish teams whilst they are free to do so against the Italians, the Scots and the Welsh.

Time for manadatory independent citing officers in the Rabo methinks.

Teams in the AP can still suggest incidents to the independent citing commissioner. Tigers don't as a rule though I believe that was sorely tested after the Clark incident.

If true, that is absolutely mental.

munkian wrote:If true, that is absolutely mental.

Which, munk? The Tigers or the IRFU/Provinces?

IRFU

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Well, according to Notch and repeated by rodders relating to non-appearance of Kearney before the disciplinary committee after the recent Ulster v Leinster game, it's true.

I feel that this is worthy of a broader debate.

In the past the Tigers for instance, had a policy of not citing anyone but that was overtaken I believe by the Jeff ruling that independent citing officers to make the decision.

But it is surely wrong for the IRFU to dictate to the provinces that they should not cite fellow Irish teams whilst they are free to do so against the Italians, the Scots and the Welsh.

Time for manadatory independent citing officers in the Rabo methinks.

They are already in place. Take this report from the Paul O'Connell boot to Dave Kearneys head incident.

"Paul O’Connell will not be cited for his accidental kick of Dave Kearney during the Munster vs Leinster game on Saturday night. It had been feared that a citing by citing commissioner, Eddie Walsh, would mean O’Connell missing Munster’s Heineken Cup quarter-final against Clermont on April 27th."

Leinster did not cite O'Connell but the citing commissioner considdered it.

I was under the impression we had an independent citing process. I recall the bull getting off easy once (just in time for the AIs) and aled brew not getting cited by a WRU panel for a blatant tip tackle against Glasgow but that was a while back

Well,

Rabo12 wrote:Citing Commissioner

A Citing Commissioner will be appointed for all matches in the RaboDirect PRO12. They shall be entitled to cite a player for any acts of foul play that in the opinion of the Citing Commissioner warranted the player being shown a red card, even where such act(s) may have been detected by the referee and/or touch judge(s) and may have been the subject of action taken by them.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/statzone/competition_rules.php (see what I did there? I put a reference in).

Apparently then, Rob Kearney's near toppage of Jackson (or was it Marshall?) was not considered worthy of review by the panel. Imo that's just a plain, daft abrogation of responsibility.

And it looks like Notch and rodders were wrong in their statements of belief.

[ed] What was the citing official doing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZJpmgWz_Hs . Video nasty.

The provinces have an agreement not to cite each others players. They are all owned by the IRFU so it would be like the IRFU citing themselves, it would be nonsensical.

Ulster citing Leinster would be like Leicester tigers citing the Leicester B team.....

Is it the case that Citing Commissioners in Pro12 tend to be employed by the home Union (eg Eddie Walsh in the O'Connell incident), so there may be questions over their independence?

Independent Citing Commissioners ?

Last round of matches, from the Rabo Direct site –

LEINSTER v EDINBURGH - Citing Commissioner: Peter Ferguson (IRFU)

MUNSTER v ULSTER - Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (WRU ? He’s from Athlone, is he not ?)

DRAGONS v BENETTON TREVISO - Citing Commissioner: Jeff Mark (WRU)

SCARLETS v BLUES – Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)

OSPREYS v CONNACHT – Citing Commissioner: Dennis Jones (WRU)

GLASGOW WARRIORS v ZEBRE - Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)

This is nonsense.

The tackle was clearly seen by the ref, reviewed by the TMO and the ref, presumably reviewed by the citing officer and they ALL agreed it was not a red card offence.

Paddy Jackson did not think it was a red card offence.

I would imagine no one at UR thought it was a red card offence.

It was not a red card offence.

Why do you think there is some kind of Irish conspiracy to refuse to cite a fellow Irishman?

rodders wrote:The provinces have an agreement not to cite each others players. They are all owned by the IRFU so it would be like the IRFU citing themselves, it would be nonsensical.

Ulster citing Leinster would be like Leicester tigers citing the Leicester B team.....

  

I love it!

MrsP wrote:

rodders wrote:The provinces have an agreement not to cite each others players. They are all owned by the IRFU so it would be like the IRFU citing themselves, it would be nonsensical.

Ulster citing Leinster would be like Leicester tigers citing the Leicester B team.....

  

I love it!

Where's your quote from MrsP?

I was sourcing my OP from https://www.606v2.com/t52634p900-ulster-2013-2014#2645168 but I didn't see antyhing about ' Leicester tigers citing the Leicester B team' Which is an odd comment as they are not separate clubs and would be dealt with internally. So anyway it's a non-sequitor.

Where do you keep that whistle?

MrsP wrote:

rodders wrote:The provinces have an agreement not to cite each others players. They are all owned by the IRFU so it would be like the IRFU citing themselves, it would be nonsensical.

Ulster citing Leinster would be like Leicester tigers citing the Leicester B team.....

  

I love it!

I don't. So if an English kiwi bites an Irish player (not see on camera) they would report it. If an Irish prop player bites an Irish player they wouldn't? Personally I think Leicester are wrong not to raise foul play that wasn't caught on camera but at least their's is a blanket thing. Freely citing non-Irish players but not Irish ones is corrupt as far as I'm concerned. But then I would want Leicester to cite a Leicester A player so what would I know.

Clearly people think this is about getting one over the oppoisiton rather than stamping out foul play.

Port,

My amusement was at the analogy suggesting that Leinster were Ulster 'B'!

Just right too!

  

For clarity.

I was not meaning that I love any non-citing agreement, just that I loved Rodders cheeky analogy.

But from where was that analogy drawn, MmeF? And where's the quote?

I'm totally bemused   .

rodders wrote:The provinces have an agreement not to cite each others players. They are all owned by the IRFU so it would be like the IRFU citing themselves, it would be nonsensical.

Ulster citing Leinster would be like Leicester tigers citing the Leicester B team.....

I was just amused!

Ulster = Leicester Tigers
Leinster = Leicester B

It made me smile.

Sorry to bring levity to the situation.

I'll get my coat.

MrsP wrote:
My amusement was at the analogy suggesting that Leinster were Ulster 'B'!

Aw here now you don't think that's what I was suggesting? ....  

I get that MmeF, I'm bemused - not an idiot - but where did you get your quote from?

Or did you just make it up to amuse yourself?

Ah! rodders is in. Maybe he can help.

How about this?

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/12205.php




And for the sake of saving time can we just accept that employees of the IRFU i.e all players and staff at the four provincial teams will not cite another IRFU employee. That is why there is an independent citing commissioner.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I get that MmeF, I'm bemused - not an idiot - but where did you get your quote from?

Or did you just make it up to amuse yourself?

The lady is quoting rodders. You can tell because it says "rodders" in the quote

Submachine wrote:The lady is obfucating

That's in a quote.
But it ain't true.  

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Submachine wrote:The lady is obfucating

That's in a quote.
But it ain't true.  

Try the scroll option and scroll through the thread the original rodders post is directly after one of yours.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Submachine wrote:The lady is obfucating

That's in a quote.
But it ain't true.  

I was quoting Rodders' little jibe at our neighbours to the south.
I doubt he was attempting to quote a real incident, just give an imaginary example to make a point (and a little joke).

Submachine wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Submachine wrote:The lady is obfucating

That's in a quote.
But it ain't true.  

Try the scroll option and scroll through the thread the original rodders post is directly after one of yours.

Subm, Thank you. I missed that and I prostrate myself in abject apology.

But the analogy was totally crepe anyway...

I agree that the entire disciplinary structure of the Pro12- from the referees to the citing commissioners to the disciplinary panel- should be coalesced into one body that is independent of any of the four unions.

But don't see the problem when acts of foul play are dealt with. Tom Court is the only person to have committed an offence that merited a red card and he got cited and suspended. Robnoxious Kearney never deserved a red for that.

If the Provinces are forbidden to cite each other, Joe Schmidt was definately off messages because he was screaming for Paul O'Connell to be cited. Will I ever forget his 'think of the children watching it on youtube' comment.    

Notch wrote:I agree that the entire disciplinary structure of the Pro12- from the referees to the citing commissioners to the disciplinary panel- should be coalesced into one body that is independent of any of the four unions.

But don't see the problem when acts of foul play are dealt with. Tom Court is the only person to have committed an offence that merited a red card and he got cited and suspended. Robnoxious Kearney never deserved a red for that.

I'd just have to disagree with you on that one, Notch.

That tackle was neck-high and Kearney should have gone.
How long will these incidents continue before someone gets a severe c-spine cord injury?

They are potentially just as dangerous as dump tackes.

I think you've clearly shown that you can't let that go, yes   

Sin é wrote:If the Provinces are forbidden to cite each other, Joe Schmidt was definately off messages because he was screaming for Paul O'Connell to be cited. Will I ever forget his 'think of the children watching it on youtube' comment.    

Yeah I couldn't believe that comment

...I mean who'd be letting their kids on youtube anyways.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Notch wrote:I agree that the entire disciplinary structure of the Pro12- from the referees to the citing commissioners to the disciplinary panel- should be coalesced into one body that is independent of any of the four unions.

But don't see the problem when acts of foul play are dealt with. Tom Court is the only person to have committed an offence that merited a red card and he got cited and suspended. Robnoxious Kearney never deserved a red for that.

I'd just have to disagree with you on that one, Notch.

That tackle was neck-high and Kearney should have gone.
How long will these incidents continue before someone gets a severe c-spine cord injury?

They are potentially just as dangerous as dump tackes.

With the speed Kearney was coming across the pitch, and Jackson ducking to score, there's no way it was an intentional high tackle for me. Just one of those things.

One possibility might be for complete neutrals to be appointed for citing observers to be appointed : e.g. Franglos for the Rabo and Celtalians to the Jeff/T14.

Me too.

I don't remember seeing a red card for such a tackle and I think there would have been no thought of one but for the Court RC which proceeded it.

Notch wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Notch wrote:I agree that the entire disciplinary structure of the Pro12- from the referees to the citing commissioners to the disciplinary panel- should be coalesced into one body that is independent of any of the four unions.

But don't see the problem when acts of foul play are dealt with. Tom Court is the only person to have committed an offence that merited a red card and he got cited and suspended. Robnoxious Kearney never deserved a red for that.

I'd just have to disagree with you on that one, Notch.

That tackle was neck-high and Kearney should have gone.
How long will these incidents continue before someone gets a severe c-spine cord injury?

They are potentially just as dangerous as dump tackes.

With the speed Kearney was coming across the pitch, and Jackson ducking to score, there's no way it was an intentional high tackle for me. Just one of those things.

Jackson was in the process of scoring - not ducking.

Kearney took him round the neck. No question. It would have probably have more efficient to take him out at the hips or knees.

And doesn't he have previous?

What a joke!   

PenfroPete wrote:Independent Citing Commissioners ?

Last round of matches, from the Rabo Direct site –

LEINSTER v EDINBURGH - Citing Commissioner: Peter Ferguson (IRFU)

MUNSTER v ULSTER - Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (WRU ? He’s from Athlone, is he not ?)

DRAGONS v BENETTON TREVISO - Citing Commissioner: Jeff Mark (WRU)

SCARLETS v BLUES – Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)

OSPREYS v CONNACHT – Citing Commissioner: Dennis Jones (WRU)

GLASGOW WARRIORS v ZEBRE - Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)

Are there not citing commissioners in the aviva that are English? I don't see the relevance.

Because its the Pro12 and therefore a conspiracy of the highest order against fair play which the stiff upper lip English fully embody....a green and pleasant land...not like those pesky Irish...changing the rules as they go along

My favourite part is how calmly Paddy Jackson deals with the Kearney incident while still clearly being angry. That's a perfect 10 mentality - one you need to have.

Anyway the list of citing commissioners from last round of Pro12 is a joke. They surely don't need to travel so why is there so much home advantage there? I think you could just swap those commissioners amongst themselves and have them all turn out as neutral , can't you?

Not surprised Irish clubs won't cite other Irish clubs given they are all owned by IRFU. It's dealt with "internally" I expect. There's no legal obligation to cite things not seen by the commissioner by the way, so it's not that corrupt ... you cite when you feel aggrieved and want to bring up something not seen. They don't want to, so they don't have to.

The issue is with the commissioners. Yes you can't see everything off-camera but in that instance the players are lucky they did it to one of their provinces. Interesting question is, are derbies more violent because they know of this little nuance? Probably not as can still be seen by the ref and is still probably dealt with internally!

There may be a discussion needs to occur about the fairness or otherwise of the disciplinary arrangements of various leagues but this is an very poor example to try to use to further such an arguement.

Maybe we should follow the example of the RFU disciplinary process which allowed a QC to mislead a judge in a hearing, thus allowing the most violent act any of us have probably ever witnessed to have the sanction reduced by a half erroneously!

Would that be a good place to start this discussion?

No, we should just calmly say that this OP represents a storm in a tea cup however neutral citing commissioners and a more joined up reffing and disciplinary process that is independent of any Union that enters teams into the Pro12 would benefit everyone in the long term  

Ineffable wrote:My favourite part is how calmly Paddy Jackson deals with the Kearney incident while still clearly being angry. That's a perfect 10 mentality - one you need to have.

Hardly, Rob Kearney's just bigger than him and had his brother backing him up.

Standulstermen wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Independent Citing Commissioners ?

Last round of matches, from the Rabo Direct site –

LEINSTER v EDINBURGH - Citing Commissioner: Peter Ferguson (IRFU)

MUNSTER v ULSTER - Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (WRU ? He’s from Athlone, is he not ?)

DRAGONS v BENETTON TREVISO - Citing Commissioner: Jeff Mark (WRU)

SCARLETS v BLUES – Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)

OSPREYS v CONNACHT – Citing Commissioner: Dennis Jones (WRU)

GLASGOW WARRIORS v ZEBRE - Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)

Are there not citing commissioners in the aviva that are English? I don't see the relevance.

STAND - comparing Apples and Pears I believe. The equivalent in the Aviva would be a citing commisioner from Gloucester being appointed for a Gloucester home game, from Newcastle for a Newcastle home game ....etc. As has been mooted several times on differing threads the whole system of match appointments and discipilnary committees needs seriously looking at in the league. I don't believe there's any conspiracy, but there is a problem with perception

NOTCH - me old mucker, what's a TEA CAP ? Is it akin to my BEER COAT ?

Standulstermen wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Independent Citing Commissioners ?

Last round of matches, from the Rabo Direct site –

LEINSTER v EDINBURGH - Citing Commissioner: Peter Ferguson (IRFU)

MUNSTER v ULSTER - Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (WRU ? He’s from Athlone, is he not ?)

DRAGONS v BENETTON TREVISO - Citing Commissioner: Jeff Mark (WRU)

SCARLETS v BLUES – Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)

OSPREYS v CONNACHT – Citing Commissioner: Dennis Jones (WRU)

GLASGOW WARRIORS v ZEBRE - Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)

Are there not citing commissioners in the aviva that are English? I don't see the relevance.

Indeed there are, Stand.

But my point/s is/are that:
a. the Jeff is run and played by and contested between exclusively English clubs
b. The Rabo is an international league

and anyway I suggested
c. "One possibility might be for complete neutrals to be appointed for citing observers to be appointed : e.g. Franglos for the Rabo and Celtalians to the Jeff/T14."

MrsP wrote:There may be a discussion needs to occur about the fairness or otherwise of the disciplinary arrangements of various leagues but this is an very poor example to try to use to further such an arguement.

Maybe we should follow the example of the RFU disciplinary process which allowed a QC to mislead a judge in a hearing, thus allowing the most violent act any of us have probably ever witnessed to have the sanction reduced by a half erroneously!

Would that be a good place to start this discussion?

O Jeez. Having just been exposed as a complete idiot   , I'm going to have to ask MrsP to provide a substantiated example again.

Pretty please.

Sin é wrote:If the Provinces are forbidden to cite each other, Joe Schmidt was definately off messages because he was screaming for Paul O'Connell to be cited. Will I ever forget his 'think of the children watching it on youtube' comment.    

Probably not but you'll forget John Hayes stamping on Cian Healys head   

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:If the Provinces are forbidden to cite each other, Joe Schmidt was definately off messages because he was screaming for Paul O'Connell to be cited. Will I ever forget his 'think of the children watching it on youtube' comment.    

Probably not but you'll forget John Hayes stamping on Cian Healys head   

or Sexton kicking Mafi and opening a nasty wound ...    

Notch wrote:With the speed Kearney was coming across the pitch, and Jackson ducking to score, there's no way it was an intentional high tackle for me. Just one of those things.

Surely that could be construed as "reckless"... there was someone recently got a red card and a further ban for that...


Every Union doesn't want their players ruled out of competition for weeks that potentially could include Tests never mind the costs of defending them and possible appeal. The IRFU is simply handing the citing responsibility over to the referee. If he gives a red then there is an automatic citing, if he doesn't then there isn't a citing. Handing the responsibility over to the neutral officials seems the fairest way (in the absence of a neutral citing officer).

The IRFU would put themselves in a completely invidious position if they took any other position. Bear in mind that a player could simply try to get a provincial rival banned so that he (or a teammate) could usurp him in the Test team. Also bear in mind how an accusing player will be received in the Ireland camp by the accused's teammates! It is a very traditional way for rugby to be played by keeping as much of the game confined to the pitch as possible, so where is the conspiracy?