Should grunting be forbidden or capped?

I was listening to LBC this morning in my car and that was one of the discussion going on. I was easy on the subject before but I just think like everything it gets abused if not regulated.

Referee should be equipped of s decibel gauge and simply penalise grunting abuse. It;s a nuisance for the opponents who don't and for the public. Especially with the roof closed!

As a TV viewer you have the option of turning down the volume.

As a spectator you can always take plugs or ear defenders (like you have at the F1 GP's)

However the more important issue is for the opponent, assuming she is an non- grunter (as two are likely to cancel each other out). It must be off-putting but how the heck can you stop that person from doing it.

A bit like Rafa's various OCD's - you can't

its very annoying all right, there so many players grunting these days that few stand out but if i was to mention one then it would be schiavone

Hmm an interesting if unusual question. I do feel some players (yes the Williams sisters and Sharapova, I'm looking at you) grunt more on important points, and on some points seem to stop doing it altogether at times; Whether this is a deliberate tactic to upset your opponent, or simply because you put more effort into the important points, I don't know.

Does it bother the opposition? I don't know, i guess it depends on the opposition. If I can use a cricket analogy (being a sport I play competitively), where some bowlers in the league grunt as they release the ball. Now in my case I kind of get in the "zone", where I'm only focusing on the ball from the moment the bowler starts his run-up so don't really hear any sounds or anything, just block them out. However, as an umpire, I've had batsmen ask me to tell the bowler to tune it down, so obviously it upsest some people.

Should it be forbidden? IMO if the umpire believes that it's being used to upset the opponent, and is against the spirit of the game, then he/she should do something about it. Otherwise, fine. Wasn't it Frenchman Yannick Noah who in response to what he felt was excessive grunting from his opponent started shrieking on every shot? The other guy soon stopped...

I don't think a decibel meter is needed - the Umpire just needs to use common sense and discretion. Is the 'grunting' just the effort of making the shot, or is it intended to distract the opponent? Too loud, prolonged or (as in some cases) after the ball has been struck, and action needs to be taken

It's hilarious when a player grunts while playing a drop shot...

A few warnings and the game would get a lot quieter, and a lot better for it.

I don't think a decibel meter is needed - the Umpire just needs to use common sense and discretion.

Let's face it, we should all know by now that Umpires are in no position to apply the same rules to all players across the ATP. It DOES matter immensely whether you are number 1 or number 50.

That's why we need to introduce a decibel instrument and noise above a certain limit can be identified and warning should be given.

I don;t understand why technology is used everywhere, including HE to call on lines but we can't use a stopwatch for time between point or technology to regulate grunting.

I am not a big fan of using technology everywhere but it seems that when huge stakes are involved we need to tighten rules otherwise it gets abused.

Tenez

I'm against using a quantitative measure for two reasons:
1) If you set a level, you are implicitly saying all grunting is allowed up to that level, regardless of persistence or timing.
2) A measure of decibels doesn't necessarily provide an accurate guide to the annoyance factor - pitch also comes in to it, so a quieter high pitched noise can be more penetrating and annoying than a louder but lower pitched one.

As for whether it is 'one rule for the best, one for the rest', I know your opinions on that. It is inevitable in all sports that there is a perception of bias against your man / team, but I think it is much rarer in fact than in perception (although Man U don't get many decisions against them at home )

I'm against using a quantitative measure for two reasons:

1) If you set a level, you are implicitly saying all grunting is allowed up to that level, regardless of persistence or timing.
Well. It is allowed obviously, so we need to recognise that in the first place.

2) A measure of decibels doesn't necessarily provide an accurate guide to the annoyance factor - pitch also comes in to it, so a quieter high pitched noise can be more penetrating and annoying than a louder but lower pitched one.
That can be worked out technically too.

As for whether it is 'one rule for the best, one for the rest', I know your opinions on that. It is inevitable in all sports that there is a perception of bias against your man / team, but I think it is much rarer in fact than in perception (although Man U don't get many decisions against them at home ).

No. That's very different. It's not an opinion. It's a fact! I am not talking about Nadal v Federer or Djoko. I am talking about number 1 or 4 versus number 50 or 100. Completely different. It's as much a fact as there is a roof on centre court but there is none on court 1 let alone court 18! Not everybody is treated equal. Certainly not in sport where being number 1 is everything!

It's the top players that feed the ATP employees and their referees so they are never going to be impartial when dealing with players. We however are the spectators, and what we want should be even more important, and as a fan of the sport I want a fair game. That's why I am in favour of using a stopwatch and a decibelmeter

Tenez

OK, I get your point about bias a bit better now. Don't necessarily agree with you though that the rules as currently interpreted are applied differently to the top players, at least in the bigger tournaments, but yes it is a fact that the top players tend to get favourable court allocations and match timings (although on a day when Roddick v Hanescu is on the weather-proof centre court and Murray v Kamke is on Ct 1, this slightly undermines that argument). After all, then British #1 Tim Henman is I believe still the only player to have ever been disqualified at Wimbledon - seems there was no leniency for him. Similarly, Rafa is one of the few players I've ever seen get a warning for delay of game.

I assume there is a rule that the umpires can already apply regarding unsportsmanlike conduct, that could be extended to apply to those occasions where grunting is clearly being used in an attempt to distract opponents.

I think a bit of common sense in the application of this rule would be sufficient to curtail the excessive grunting of all players very quickly - it just needs the officials to have the balls to actually start applying the rules rather than letting things slide.

Absolutely!

Where do I sign?

Grunting should be banned full stop. It's a tennis court, not a farmhouse!

legendkillar wrote:Grunting should be banned full stop. It's a tennis court, not a...

Was a bit worried about where that was going LK...

Grunting has been going on for years Just ask Connors

I think the punishment for grunting should be that the guilty party should be made to were a cone shaped hat with 'grunter' written on it!

Personally i think is also a question of whether the shot justifies noise.

For example in the mens game we are used to a bit of noise from the sheer exertion of the shot.

Now in the womens game i personally can't stand the screaming, but if they are hitting a whopper from the baseline and the the scream is during impact, then i guess thats fine. What isn't fine is when the shot does not justify the noise - then it just becomes a war cry to me.

For example on big points ive heard Venus.W scream massively while playing a deft volley - there is litterally no reason a scream is needed at that point and that is the kind of thing i think needs to be got rid off. If the screams were once or twice a rally for power shots then i could deal with it, but its becoming TOO much of a habit for TOO many players.

I think it is more abusive when the grunting occurs well after the ball has been struck or continues till the point the other player is setting up for the next shot. Frankly, it is annoying as a TV viewer if it occurs lets say to the level of Maria sharapova or some others. The problem nowadays is that officials really can't enforce the rules or lack the courage to do so. This is a players tour, and always has been. This is part of the reason that the players can towel themselves constantly between points, take whatever time they like, grunt and shriek between points. I mean when was the last time we saw a point penalty actually be enforced. Until it starts affecting the score you won't see any of these discretionary rules enforced properly.

I also think I heard some tactical grunts. When the opponent hits a long ball very close to the baseline, the grunter goes "OOOUUURRR" as if to say the ball was out while hitting his shot to maybe unsettle his opponent in making him think his ball was out.

Grunting is like spitting, completely uneccessary.

Do footballers or golfers grunt whilst striking the ball? Of course not, it's a completely superfluous affectation that ought to be subject to some sort of penal retribution.
It's particularly bad in the womens game, which is unwatchable most of the time anyway, this just consigns it to a laughable level of disinterest.

super_realist wrote:Grunting is like spitting, completely uneccessary.

Do footballers or golfers grunt whilst striking the ball? Of course not, it's a completely superfluous affectation that ought to be subject to some sort of penal retribution.
It's particularly bad in the womens game, which is unwatchable most of the time anyway, this just consigns it to a laughable level of disinterest.

If it were a British player, and there aren't many!

They should be shipped off to Spain to learn how to play the game properly

Up to the opponent of a grunter to come out with extremely exaggerated grunts of their own when they strike the ball. That might shut the grunters up. Also a good idea for the whole crowd to grunt simultaneously with the grunter. The umpire would have to warn them but it could shame the screechers.
Failing that, umpires should grunt, although they could be defaulted by the crowd.

sirfredperry wrote:Up to the opponent of a grunter to come out with extremely exaggerated grunts of their own when they strike the ball. That might shut the grunters up. Also a good idea for the whole crowd to grunt simultaneously with the grunter. The umpire would have to warn them but it could shame the screechers.
Failing that, umpires should grunt, although they could be defaulted by the crowd.

Looks like you don;t like it either SFP!

Welcome here, glad you made it here.....it;s busier than the other forum!

LOl, sir fred. But I don't want to change tennis into some sort of vocal exercise. I also don't want to see the game become bureaucratic filled with dozens of meaningless rules and regulations. But I do have a problem with the behavior that Tenez points out where some players grunt, and it sounds like the ball is being called out and the reflex of the opponent is to stop and hence they are out of position for the next shot.

super_realist wrote:Grunting is like spitting, completely uneccessary.

Do footballers or golfers grunt whilst striking the ball? Of course not, it's a completely superfluous affectation that ought to be subject to some sort of penal retribution.
It's particularly bad in the womens game, which is unwatchable most of the time anyway, this just consigns it to a laughable level of disinterest.

Could you imagine that!? ..........WOOOAAARRGGHHH!....Ping!

or over a 3 ft putt.... WOOOAAARRGGHHH!....tap

Would kind of like to see that just to see how the elitists would react.

Well there is something to be said for grunting as tennis its similar to how martial artists are taught to give out a yell when they kick or bunch as it has something to do with muscle action and being able to kick or punch harder, maybe its just to scare the rudey poo out of your opposition. Personally, its really a bigger problem on the woman's tour.

Have to say I've not watched that many games where the grunting has been really noticeable...but then I tend to mainly watch mens' matches.

Have seen a couple of matches featuring Sharapova or one of the Williams sisters where I had to stop watching after a while, but other womens' matches where it was no worse than the men.

I think the problem is limited to a few players and I think introducing new rules or penalties to stop screaming / grunting is unnecessary.

As others have suggested, the crowd can wear ear plugs or listen to their mp3 players, TV viewers can turn down the volume and opponents can come up with creative distractions of their own.

I think the problem is limited to a few players and I think introducing new rules or penalties to stop screaming / grunting is unnecessary.

That's actually why I think it is necessary to introduce the rule.

1 - To make it a fair field.
2 - To prevent the trend from spreading.

One of the problems I have found is how this grunting is being copied by the young players

I was playing a match one day, and there was an 8 year old getting couching and screaming at every hit. Was embarassing and very off putting.

The coach did not say anything

It is the example it sets that is a problem

Sharapova I have to turn over or put on mute (Depends what she is wearing)

If there was a fair and unilateral way to stop the grunting Im sure something would have been done about it. The problem with a decibel meter is where do you place it. In centre court the noise may reverberate more as its a stadium and will automatically sound louder than on any of the outside courts

Good point David....though they have a way to count how many seconds there is between points, it's not used much either.

The points between seconds is something that can be timed in every match without outside factors effecting the outcome. I think they definitely need to be doing something with that rule

davidl1061 wrote:The points between seconds is something that can be timed in every match without outside factors effecting the outcome. I think they definitely need to be doing something with that rule

Yes, I think we invented stopwatches a long time ago, didn't we?

im okay with gentlemen's grunt..
but with women,,i can accept the grunts when theyre hitting forehands or backhand,,
but grunting while slice or dropshot...
that was wrong!
the kind of grunt which should be done only in bed
so annoying.

Tenez

I think players who line up water bottles on the court should be banned.

Its distracting to other players who may prefere the lables to face in a different direction. It takes up valuable space on the court that may be needed when retrieving a drop shot. A gust of wind could blow them over at an inappropriate time - perhaps startling a player as they prepare to serve at break point down. If more than 1 water bottle is used the player doing the bottle lining is using up more than their fair share of water. This could cause dehydration in their opponant. Some more sensitive players worry so much about accidentally knocking the bottles over as they change ends that they lose concentration. Other players spend so much time plotting to knock them over on purpose that they lose concentration.

I can think of several grand slam finals whose outcome has been affected by this activity. I am shocked that it has been allowed to continue for so long!

Should grunting be forbidden or capped?

No!......they should be gagged. Although, if both player grunt and scream and screech, then fair enough, let them get on with it, but, there are limits........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h2e5IAY70w

What if ? .................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCgpX-9AcXM&feature=related

I find it surprising that people believe they can limit the grunting?

Just get them to stop it!! I mean is annoys me when Andy grunts when he sounds like someone has branded him or something. It's embarrassing to see.

Should grunting be forbidden or capped?

Neither. I think that it should be encouraged.

Jubbahey wrote:Should grunting be forbidden or capped?

No!......they should be gagged. Although, if both player grunt and scream and screech, then fair enough, let them get on with it, but, there are limits........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h2e5IAY70w

What if ? .................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCgpX-9AcXM&feature=related

ROFL!!!

I'm glad I'm not into womens tennis as I would find the grunting intolerable,

Solerina

Venus' second round match with Kimiko Date-Krumm under the centre court roof involved some explosive grunting - the roof seems to amplify the noise.

The following give Health and Safety Regulations for exposure to noise in the workplace (line judges, ball boys/girls etc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Control_of_Noise_at_Work_regulations_2005

Maybe Sharapova and the Williams sisters should be made to wear soundproofed gas masks or something?