Aaron Ramsey ----Arsenal's best player

First topic message reminder :

To start with, I truly believe Rambo is Arsenals best player. I think he is future captain, talisman and regular team of the season contender if this season's form is anything to go by.

Having seen him out of the side for a portion of the season I can clearly see the difference he brings to the team. I would liken his movement when we have the ball to a younger Lampard or Stevie G. He provides am option to break the lines players like Ozil, Cazorla and Rosicky fail to do, preferring to take ball to feet rather than give and go.

I would like Wenger to build a team around Ramsay in the same way Liverpool have done with Gerrard.

What is other people's opinion on the quality of ramsay, his best position and if you think building the team to suit his style of play would be a good way to move forward. All opinions are welcome and I really would like supporters of other teams to voice their opinion as these should be less rose tinted than mine.

Arsenal play nearby the pub team, Socal, not the other way round.

Tottenham were in North London first.

Sssssh Duty, don't tell him that he'll only deny it.

For me, best centre midfielder in the world at the moment (and crazily underrated) is Luka Modric.

Completely changed Madrid in my opinion.

As for Ramsey being best in the world, give him a few more seasons. He's had an excellent season by all means but it is only season where he has been above average. Had a lot of expectation on his shoulders, and definitely seemed to be fulfilling it last season.

Remember what happened to Wilshere...

hampo171 wrote:To be fair SoCal I never named Modric, I said Vidal, Toure and co. You say Modric is only doing it in a fancied team like Real Madrid, he also did it at Spurs.

Statistically, Ramsey outperformed Vidal playing 12 less league matches and Vidal had a large number of his goals come from the spot and Ramsey had no goals from the spot. If it is about longevity and doing it over the long haul, fair enough. Aaron has been hurt and he is young. If it is based on who is the better player right now I would take Ramsey. He does everything Vidal can do and somethings Vidal can't.

Ramsey's goals against Norwich this season were quality:

Duty281 wrote:Arsenal play nearby the pub team, Socal, not the other way round.

Tottenham were in North London first.

Yes and they were the first team in London to win the FA cup we just won 13 more after them! You guys sound like true Spuds fans. Next you are going to tell me they won the double before Arsenal did and where the first team in Britain to win a european competition. And Daniel Levy is the baldest man in football so?

You don't judge it on stats, you judge it on impact for their team. Ramsey had an impact for 20 games, Vidal for a number of seasons. If Ramsey can play at this level for the next three or four years then maybe he'll be the best, but until then stop blowing smoke up his ass.

socal1976 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Arsenal play nearby the pub team, Socal, not the other way round.

Tottenham were in North London first.

Yes and they were the first team in London to win the FA cup we just won 13 more after them! You guys sound like true Spuds fans. Next you are going to tell me they won the double before Arsenal did and where the first team in Britain to win a european competition. And Daniel Levy is the baldest man in football so?

Whatever helps you sleep at night, my dear.

FOOTBALL CANNOT BE DEFINED BY STATS HOW MANY TIMES ARGHHHHHH

hampo171 wrote:You don't judge it on stats, you judge it on impact for their team. Ramsey had an impact for 20 games, Vidal for a number of seasons. If Ramsey can play at this level for the next three or four years then maybe he'll be the best, but until then stop blowing smoke up his ass.

This year Ramsey was better than him. Better numbers in half a season than what Vidal did all year. If we are going on the longevity status well aaron is young and this was his breakout year.

Ramsey arsenals best player? I'd have him level with Per and Ozil myself, but certainly up there

Best midfielder in England? One day maybe, not yet

Best midfielder in the world? Got a long long way to go

Olly wrote:FOOTBALL CANNOT BE DEFINED BY STATS HOW MANY TIMES ARGHHHHHH

I agree Vidal and Toure's stats are widely exaggerated by all those dodgy penalties that they took this season.

Olly wrote:Ramsey arsenals best player? I'd have him level with Per and Ozil myself, but certainly up there

Cmon Olly, the guy was the talisman this year, when he went out our season went to crap. When he was playing despite missing many other key players we had our best form and lead the league. I love Per and Ozil, I don't even think their wives or mothers think they were as good as Ramsey this year. Ramsey will be ARsenal's player of the year by a wide margin.

Jesus Christ, this was his break out year? How do you know that? He played 20 games, that's it. Not a full season, I'd rather take players that I know can perform over a full season, we don't know that he can do that. Saying he's the best midfielder in the premier league is a stretch, the best in the world should get you your own padded cell.

socal1976 wrote:

Olly wrote:Ramsey arsenals best player? I'd have him level with Per and Ozil myself, but certainly up there

Cmon Olly, the guy was the talisman this year, when he went out our season went to crap. When he was playing despite missing many other key players we had our best form and lead the league. I love Per and Ozil, I don't even think their wives or mothers think they were as good as Ramsey this year. Ramsey will be ARsenal's player of the year by a wide margin.

This year yes he was the best performer

This year Martin Olsson was our best performer. Doesn't make him our best player, just like with Ramsey. I think Per is rock of that defence, and Ozil is the most naturally talented, don't think one season (or half a season due to injury) has propelled Ramsey beyond them yet, maybe level but not beyond

Olly wrote:FOOTBALL CANNOT BE DEFINED BY STATS HOW MANY TIMES ARGHHHHHH

It's an American thing, they don't understand the complexities of football so have to resort to laziness.

hampo171 wrote:Jesus Christ, this was his break out year? How do you know that? He played 20 games, that's it. Not a full season, I'd rather take players that I know can perform over a full season, we don't know that he can do that. Saying he's the best midfielder in the premier league is a stretch, the best in the world should get you your own padded cell.

No saying Modric is the best central midfielder in the world after riding the pine for a couple of seasons deserves a padded cell if we are handing out suites in the looney bin. I have argued much crazier propositions and plan to in the future.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Olly wrote:FOOTBALL CANNOT BE DEFINED BY STATS HOW MANY TIMES ARGHHHHHH

It's an American thing, they don't understand the complexities of football so have to resort to laziness.

Wait people don't know I am American tell them again for the 3rd time on thread. Excellent logic by the way, I am right because well my opponent is American.

It's the reason for your reliance on statistics, American sport is built upon it, something that the superior English don't do.

If you'd watched Madrid over the course of the season you'd have seen Modric being consistently one of their best players. Oh and I missed the perennials in Alonso, Xavi and Pirlo earlier so we're up to 14 now.
So yes Aaron Ramsey is the worlds best CM...if 14 other players all suddenly disappear off the face of the planet.

Oh and Kroos and Strootman, forgot those.
Aaron Ramsey, 17th best CM in the world.

Olly wrote:FOOTBALL CANNOT BE DEFINED BY STATS HOW MANY TIMES ARGHHHHHH

Why not?

If you're one for stats being the be all and end all of deciding who's the best why do you base how good a central midfielder on goal per game ratio. That's not what a central midfielder is there for, sure it's a nice bonus but a central midfielder is a jack of all trades, a pass rate and tackle rate far more important.

Ramsey in this glorious season for him...
Ramsey pass rate: 84%
Ramsey duels won: 47%

Compare that to some of the ones you thought laughable off my list

Pjanic pass rate: 88%
Pjanic duels won: 47%


Iniesta, the supposed past his best and not having a good year...

Pass rate: 91%
Duels won: 60%

Kroos, you liked a laugh at him and wondered what he did...

Pass rate: 92%
Duels won: 54%

Modric, the pub player?

Pass rate: 90%
Duels won: 57%

But who needs stats hey?

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you'd watched Madrid over the course of the season you'd have seen Modric being consistently one of their best players. Oh and I missed the perennials in Alonso, Xavi and Pirlo earlier so we're up to 14 now.
So yes Aaron Ramsey is the worlds best CM...if 14 other players all suddenly disappear off the face of the planet.

Ramsey had a better season than all 3 of those names

You keep saying Modric has been by the way side for two years, he's played 104 times for Madrid in two seasons, during his first season there he played the fifth most amount of minutes overall whereas this season he's second.

Now that's a couple of statistics you can shove down your throat.

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you're one for stats being the be all and end all of deciding who's the best why do you base how good a central midfielder on goal per game ratio. That's not what a central midfielder is there for, sure it's a nice bonus but a central midfielder is a jack of all trades, a pass rate and tackle rate far more important.

Ramsey in this glorious season for him...
Ramsey pass rate: 84%
Ramsey duels won: 47%

Compare that to some of the ones you thought laughable off my list

Pjanic pass rate: 88%
Pjanic duels won: 47%


Iniesta, the supposed past his best and not having a good year...

Pass rate: 91%
Duels won: 60%

Kroos, you liked a laugh at him and wondered what he did...

Pass rate: 92%
Duels won: 54%

Modric, the pub player?

Pass rate: 90%
Duels won: 57%

But who needs stats hey?

You posted the pass rate but not the amount of passes attempted. No point posting passing accuracy but not assess attempted.

socal1976 wrote:

hampo171 wrote:Jesus Christ, this was his break out year? How do you know that? He played 20 games, that's it. Not a full season, I'd rather take players that I know can perform over a full season, we don't know that he can do that. Saying he's the best midfielder in the premier league is a stretch, the best in the world should get you your own padded cell.

No saying Modric is the best central midfielder in the world after riding the pine for a couple of seasons deserves a padded cell if we are handing out suites in the looney bin. I have argued much crazier propositions and plan to in the future.

Mate, you are watching the wrong sport if you think Modric being better than Ramsey is crazy.

Ramsey has had one good season. Modric did it at Tottenham and has now adjusted his game to run a Madrid side full of superstars.

Modric is the reason Madrid had their swagger back.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Olly wrote:FOOTBALL CANNOT BE DEFINED BY STATS HOW MANY TIMES ARGHHHHHH

Why not?

Stats in football never tell the full story. It's all subjective

Grant Holt was the second highest English scorer two year ago by the stats, but that didn't make him the second best English striker.

They can be used, but not as the be all and end all

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you're one for stats being the be all and end all of deciding who's the best why do you base how good a central midfielder on goal per game ratio. That's not what a central midfielder is there for, sure it's a nice bonus but a central midfielder is a jack of all trades, a pass rate and tackle rate far more important.

Ramsey in this glorious season for him...
Ramsey pass rate: 84%
Ramsey duels won: 47%

Compare that to some of the ones you thought laughable off my list

Pjanic pass rate: 88%
Pjanic duels won: 47%


Iniesta, the supposed past his best and not having a good year...

Pass rate: 91%
Duels won: 60%

Kroos, you liked a laugh at him and wondered what he did...

Pass rate: 92%
Duels won: 54%

Modric, the pub player?

Pass rate: 90%
Duels won: 57%

But who needs stats hey?

You posted the pass rate but not the amount of passes attempted. No point posting passing accuracy but not assess attempted.

Oh okay then..

Ramsey: 66 passes per game, 84% success
Pjanic: 64 passes per game, 88% success
Iniesta: 63 passes per game, 91% success
Kroos: 75 passes per game, 92% success
Modric: 58 passes per game, 90% success

So only Modric has a significant lower attempted pass (8 per game) yet has a 6% better success rate with them. He also has a higher tackle rate.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you'd watched Madrid over the course of the season you'd have seen Modric being consistently one of their best players. Oh and I missed the perennials in Alonso, Xavi and Pirlo earlier so we're up to 14 now.
So yes Aaron Ramsey is the worlds best CM...if 14 other players all suddenly disappear off the face of the planet.

Ramsey had a better season than all 3 of those names

Xavi, past his best...attempted passes average 86 per game, 93% completed.
Pirlo, 67 per game, 88% completed.
Alonso 66 per game, 88% completed.

Yeah poor seasons for all three.

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you'd watched Madrid over the course of the season you'd have seen Modric being consistently one of their best players. Oh and I missed the perennials in Alonso, Xavi and Pirlo earlier so we're up to 14 now.
So yes Aaron Ramsey is the worlds best CM...if 14 other players all suddenly disappear off the face of the planet.

Ramsey had a better season than all 3 of those names

Xavi, past his best...attempted passes average 86 per game, 93% completed.
Pirlo, 67 per game, 88% completed.
Alonso 66 per game, 88% completed.

Yeah poor seasons for all three.

When did I say they had poor seasons???? I said ramsey had a better season.

Which based on this stats isn't true.

hampo171 wrote:Which based on this stats isn't true.

Well then kieran Gibbs has had a better season than Ronaldo because Kieran Gibbs stats for tacking are higher......

We have to look at te whole icture when looking at stats and that includes passing, key passes, tackles, shots, goals, assists, clearances etc etc

You talk about looking at the whole picture and then compare a striker with a defender? Really?

Or we could just watch them and base our opinions on that.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

hampo171 wrote:Which based on this stats isn't true.

Well then kieran Gibbs has had a better season than Ronaldo because Kieran Gibbs stats for tacking are higher......

We have to look at te whole icture when looking at stats and that includes passing, key passes, tackles, shots, goals, assists, clearances etc etc

  

hampo171 wrote:You talk about looking at the whole picture and then compare a striker with a defender? Really?

It was to mock the idea that one stat alone proves who has had the better season.

Personally I think di Maria has been on flames since he took a more centralized position, and more to the point has been flat out unplayable for the last three months. Dont think Modric has been our best midfielder, let alone our best player. Its cool to pretend otherwise, I know, but Ronaldo is a gear above, Maybe our best Tottenham acquisition?

As for Ramsey, I won't get into the best in the world discussions, but I do think he's probably the centrepiece for Arsenals future. Fantastic tackler, passer, creator, and finisher. He's next position depends on Arsenal's summer. If I'm Wenger, I'd buy Cesc back, and have him boss the midfield. He's only 5'7, 5'8, and not particularly fast but he's got that ability to read the game which means he doesn't have to be a behemoth. If he plays false nine, the Rambo has to smell the wing.

As for stats... Tend to err on the American side. Football stats are nowhere near as comprehensive, so it's tough to take much from pure stats, but you don't see Mike Miller, or Joakim Noah leading the PER... So I don't think it's the lack of ability to think for themselves which sees them quote stats... more that American sport stats are so comprehensive that the players regarded as great tend to end near the top of the stat sheets for whatever reason

Funny that CS, because the whole argument for Ramsey being the best is based on that.

kingraf wrote:Personally I think  di Maria has been on flames since he took a more centralized position, and more to the point has been flat out unplayable for the last three months. Dont think Modric has been our best midfielder, let alone our best player. Its cool to pretend otherwise, I know, but Ronaldo is a gear above, Maybe our best Tottenham acquisition?

As for Ramsey, I won't get into the best in the world discussions, but I do think he's probably the centrepiece for Arsenals future. Fantastic tackler, passer, creator,  and finisher. He's next position depends on Arsenal's summer. If I'm Wenger, I'd buy Cesc back, and have him boss the midfield. He's only 5'7, 5'8, and not particularly fast but he's got that ability to read the game which means he doesn't have to be a behemoth. If he plays false nine, the Rambo has to smell the wing.

As for stats... Tend to err on the American side. Football stats are nowhere near as comprehensive, so it's tough to take much from pure stats, but you don't see Mike Miller, or Joakim Noah leading the PER...  So I don't think it's the lack of ability to think for themselves which sees them quote stats... more that American sport stats are so comprehensive that the players regarded as great tend to end near the top of the stat sheets for whatever reason

Cheers Raf for this contribution, nice to read something constructive in this thread!

Have to disagree with you regarding Fabregas though. Think Arsenal have more pressing needs to spend £30 million plus on a player (top class striker, destructive midfielder), than another creative midfielder.

Nakatomi Plaza wrote:

kingraf wrote:Personally I think  di Maria has been on flames since he took a more centralized position, and more to the point has been flat out unplayable for the last three months. Dont think Modric has been our best midfielder, let alone our best player. Its cool to pretend otherwise, I know, but Ronaldo is a gear above, Maybe our best Tottenham acquisition?

As for Ramsey, I won't get into the best in the world discussions, but I do think he's probably the centrepiece for Arsenals future. Fantastic tackler, passer, creator,  and finisher. He's next position depends on Arsenal's summer. If I'm Wenger, I'd buy Cesc back, and have him boss the midfield. He's only 5'7, 5'8, and not particularly fast but he's got that ability to read the game which means he doesn't have to be a behemoth. If he plays false nine, the Rambo has to smell the wing.

As for stats... Tend to err on the American side. Football stats are nowhere near as comprehensive, so it's tough to take much from pure stats, but you don't see Mike Miller, or Joakim Noah leading the PER...  So I don't think it's the lack of ability to think for themselves which sees them quote stats... more that American sport stats are so comprehensive that the players regarded as great tend to end near the top of the stat sheets for whatever reason

Cheers Raf for this contribution, nice to read something constructive in this thread!

Have to disagree with you regarding Fabregas though. Think Arsenal have more pressing needs to spend £30 million plus on a player (top class striker, destructive midfielder), than another creative midfielder.

Cheers mate. If I'm completely honest, I don't think Arsenal need a striker. Between them, I thnk Walcott, Podolski, and Olivier Giroud should bang in enough. Keeping them all fit seems a challenge though.

Nakatomi Plaza wrote:

kingraf wrote:Personally I think  di Maria has been on flames since he took a more centralized position, and more to the point has been flat out unplayable for the last three months. Dont think Modric has been our best midfielder, let alone our best player. Its cool to pretend otherwise, I know, but Ronaldo is a gear above, Maybe our best Tottenham acquisition?

As for Ramsey, I won't get into the best in the world discussions, but I do think he's probably the centrepiece for Arsenals future. Fantastic tackler, passer, creator,  and finisher. He's next position depends on Arsenal's summer. If I'm Wenger, I'd buy Cesc back, and have him boss the midfield. He's only 5'7, 5'8, and not particularly fast but he's got that ability to read the game which means he doesn't have to be a behemoth. If he plays false nine, the Rambo has to smell the wing.

As for stats... Tend to err on the American side. Football stats are nowhere near as comprehensive, so it's tough to take much from pure stats, but you don't see Mike Miller, or Joakim Noah leading the PER...  So I don't think it's the lack of ability to think for themselves which sees them quote stats... more that American sport stats are so comprehensive that the players regarded as great tend to end near the top of the stat sheets for whatever reason

Cheers Raf for this contribution, nice to read something constructive in this thread!

Have to disagree with you regarding Fabregas though. Think Arsenal have more pressing needs to spend £30 million plus on a player (top class striker, destructive midfielder), than another creative midfielder.

Cheers mate. If I'm completely honest, I don't think Arsenal need a striker. Between them, I thnk Walcott, Podolski, and Olivier Giroud should bang in enough. Keeping them all fit seems a challenge though.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Or we could just watch them and base our opinions on that.

What a radical idea!

hampo171 wrote:Funny that CS, because the whole argument for Ramsey being the best is based on that.

Based on 1 stat?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you'd watched Madrid over the course of the season you'd have seen Modric being consistently one of their best players. Oh and I missed the perennials in Alonso, Xavi and Pirlo earlier so we're up to 14 now.
So yes Aaron Ramsey is the worlds best CM...if 14 other players all suddenly disappear off the face of the planet.

Ramsey had a better season than all 3 of those names

Xavi, past his best...attempted passes average 86 per game, 93% completed.
Pirlo, 67 per game, 88% completed.
Alonso 66 per game, 88% completed.

Yeah poor seasons for all three.

When did I say they had poor seasons???? I said ramsey had a better season.

Was I quoting you stating they had poor seasons? You stated Ramsey had a better season, I showcased a stat of which is supposedly one of Ramsey's main facets that it was in fact not as strong as them. It's a generally common belief that all three are in the twilight of their years and that Xavi in particular is on the wane, even still he averages 20 passes a game more than Ramsey and a much higher completion rate. Ramsey's completion rate is average.
He's had an excellent season, no denying that, but to suddenly put him at the highest echelon of the current crop of central midfielders above the Kroos's, Vidal's etc such as SoCal has done is nonsense.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you're one for stats being the be all and end all of deciding who's the best why do you base how good a central midfielder on goal per game ratio. That's not what a central midfielder is there for, sure it's a nice bonus but a central midfielder is a jack of all trades, a pass rate and tackle rate far more important.

Ramsey in this glorious season for him...
Ramsey pass rate: 84%
Ramsey duels won: 47%

Compare that to some of the ones you thought laughable off my list

Pjanic pass rate: 88%
Pjanic duels won: 47%


Iniesta, the supposed past his best and not having a good year...

Pass rate: 91%
Duels won: 60%

Kroos, you liked a laugh at him and wondered what he did...

Pass rate: 92%
Duels won: 54%

Modric, the pub player?

Pass rate: 90%
Duels won: 57%

But who needs stats hey?

You posted the pass rate but not the amount of passes attempted. No point posting passing accuracy but not assess attempted.

Also like how you completely brush off my reply providing the additional information and quickly then add the extra perimeters. My use of the stats to prove the point was in reference to SoCals use of the goals stat to state he was the best CM in the world because obviously scoring the most goals as a CM is their most important factor, the point that you're arguing to see the bigger picture is actually what I and everyone else was putting forward.

Sheesh 60%? Impressive figures from Iniesta. Not really sure what to make of the stats themselves (and to be honest this is where American sports are lightyears ahead UN terms of statistical presentation). Ramsey plays further forward, so I'd have assumed he has lower percentages in both facets. Playing further forward means his passes are likely to be the sideways to left back variety that gets numbers going. And playing further forward, I'd expect him to win less duels as he's more likely to be taking on defenders.

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:If you'd watched Madrid over the course of the season you'd have seen Modric being consistently one of their best players. Oh and I missed the perennials in Alonso, Xavi and Pirlo earlier so we're up to 14 now.
So yes Aaron Ramsey is the worlds best CM...if 14 other players all suddenly disappear off the face of the planet.

Ramsey had a better season than all 3 of those names

Xavi, past his best...attempted passes average 86 per game, 93% completed.
Pirlo, 67 per game, 88% completed.
Alonso 66 per game, 88% completed.

Yeah poor seasons for all three.

When did I say they had poor seasons???? I said ramsey had a better season.

Was I quoting you stating they had poor seasons? You stated Ramsey had a better season, I showcased a stat of which is supposedly one of Ramsey's main facets that it was in fact not as strong as them. It's a generally common belief that all three are in the twilight of their years and that Xavi in particular is on the wane, even still he averages 20 passes a game more than Ramsey and a much higher completion rate. Ramsey's completion rate is average.
He's had an excellent season, no denying that, but to suddenly put him at the highest echelon of the current crop of central midfielders above the Kroos's, Vidal's etc such as SoCal has done is nonsense.

Well let us look at goals scored stat and Ramsey scored more than Xavi and Alonso and Ramsey played less games......

So we should only take into account the stats that Ramsey excels in and ignore tjose he doesn't?

Of course he did, but that's part of the argument I'm raising, goals for a CM are a bonus, a CM's main focus is passing and tackling rather than goals and assists, that's the focus of the strikers, wingers and attacking midfielders.
There's a clue in the name 'central midfielder', generally players in the centre of the pitch shouldn't be relied upon to be banging them in but instead be controlling the game.

Shall we base best centre back in the world on which scored the most goals too, step forward Martin Skrtel!