Diving and playacting??

What's the crack with all this playacting??!!

Habanas pathetic attempts last weekend and Mike McCarthy this weekend.

No place for that in this sport!!!

two words:
Yellow Card

Absolutely Dr....need to nip this in the bud straight away. Their team mates should be slapping them for doing it!

Was just about to post a thread on this.
Quite simply it's shameful, but hopefully it can be stamped out before it becomes a major issue.

Also for those who missed McCarthy's tribute to Rivaldo... https://vine.co/v/Mp7m9jDlVtn  

Yellow card if seen, or 1 match retrospective ban if missed. That would have put Habana out of the Top 14 Final for a start and would go a long way to discouraging the act.

Simple answer. Red card and lengthy ban. Make an example now and it won't catch on.

Shocking stuff from McCarthy yesterday. In soccer its accepted but in rugby it damages a players reputation. Habana and McCarthy have done themselves no favours.

Pretty crap stuff from McCarthy, an order of magnitude worse than Habana and should have been yellow.

And the look like a bunch of jackasses at the same time.
When fans start chanting 'diver' the next time they play, it will have an impact. goes to the heart of any endorsement money.

Used to really like Habana. Now? not so much.

To be fair to Habana he issued a public apology and you have to also look at all the other good stuff he's done off the pitch through his career.

Yellows during game if recognised or match ban if after. The other thing that needs stamping on is the waving of imaginary cards at the ref and there's a lot more back chat aimed that way as well than there ever used to be.

The delay between Shrek slapping him and McCarthy flopping down makes me wonder if there was a sniper in the crowd. No. If there was he might have taken out Niko and done us all a favour.

Diving should be eradicated from the game, the easiest way go lose respect for a player.

Biltong wrote:Diving should be eradicated from the game, the easiest way go lose respect for a player.

Mate, you and I many times seem to end up on the same end of things. Here again, my friend.
Some people simply don't understand respect is one of the most important and perishable commodities we have. And we can't teach it - people are either born with this understanding or learn it. Some people make excuses.

doctor_grey wrote:

Biltong wrote:Diving should be eradicated from the game, the easiest way go lose respect for a player.

Mate, you and I many times seem to end up on the same end of things.  Here again, my friend.
Some  people simply don't understand respect is one of the most important and perishable commodities we have.  And we can't teach it - people are either born with this understanding or learn it.  Some people make excuses.  

Cannot agree with you more, I actually watched the HC final, and when Habana took that dive I was embarrassed that one of my countrymen would do such a thing.

I watch my son when we meet or greet people and compare him to other kids, the manners and respect he has for his elders and other kids is heart warming.

I fear our value system is under attack through the accessibility of social networks etc.

Do we think it was a dive by Rokoduguni today?

He chipped over the top of Trinh-Duc, Trinh-Duc turned and chased back, Roko put his arm out, went down and then looked at the referee expectantly. Definitely not a penalty for Roko, and it looked like he slipped, but then should he be looking at the referee asking for a penalty if it was just a slip?

OK - here's a contrary position. I await the onslaught.

I feel that there are two parts to this and both should be highlighted:

a) Over-acting
b) The initial incident being over-reacted to

Lets talk about B - generally its, tugging, pulling, blocking, lazy running, sly digs... heres comes my major point.

WE SHOULD BE EQUALLY APPALLED BY THESES INSTANCES.

But we are not. So, you talk about going the way of football, but we as a sport have already resigned ourselves to the fact that acts which are not in the positive nature of the sport are just to be expected.

Lets ask why do the players over-react? Well its simple really isn't it...

THE REFS MISS TOO MUCH.

I for one can understand how in a very important match - if you are meant to get an advantage but the ref doesn't give you that advantage because he was unaware. That can be pretty annoying.

I know that refs can't have eyes everywhere - and stopping the match for things linemen and TMOs may have seen wouldn't make it very watchable. But surely when any player is know to have acted in a dirty unsportsmanlike way, they should be cited after the game.

Players who hold players or block them, and lazy runners are equally as low as playacters IMO. But theres one crucial difference - playacters are simply trying to draw attention to a foul - whereas the holders/blockers, are just straight forward cheats.

clivemcl wrote:OK - here's a contrary position. I await the onslaught.

I feel that there are two parts to this and both should be highlighted:

a) Over-acting
b) The initial incident being over-reacted to

Lets talk about B - generally its, tugging, pulling, blocking, lazy running, sly digs...  heres comes my major point.

WE SHOULD BE EQUALLY APPALLED BY THESES INSTANCES.

But we are not. So, you talk about going the way of football, but we as a sport have already resigned ourselves to the fact that acts which are not in the positive nature of the sport are just to be expected.

Lets ask why do the players over-react? Well its simple really isn't it...

THE REFS MISS TOO MUCH.

I for one can understand how in a very important match - if you are meant to get an advantage but the ref doesn't give you that advantage because he was unaware. That can be pretty annoying.

I know that refs can't have eyes everywhere - and stopping the match for things linemen and TMOs may have seen wouldn't make it very watchable. But surely when any player is know to have acted in a dirty unsportsmanlike way, they should be cited after the game.

Players who hold players or block them, and lazy runners are equally as low as playacters IMO. But theres one crucial difference - playacters are simply trying to draw attention to a foul - whereas the holders/blockers, are just straight forward cheats.

Okay...here's the onslaught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree.  

So many of us tut tut the whimpish/'footbally' bad sportsmanship in a manly sport of diving - and rightly so.  But this fancy girly stuff of blocking players and holding them back or down when the ball in play drifts away from a collapsed ruck etc ...oh we all just nod to that and say wink wink dark arts.....

yeah...no, "in all fairness" "at the end of the day" it's just cheap shyte - that keeps lesser sides and players in games against better sides/players.

BTW - NOT a pointed shot at Glasgow at all - more a generalised view on the things in any game with any two sides that we choose to chat about and the things we ignore.

Yeah it's up to the refs to eradicate all aspects of foul play and not just play acting etc. that said McCarthy should be warned as to his future conduct. I suspect McCarthy will be subject to much ridicule when he meets up with his teammates but this obviously isn't getting it done. Same applies to waving imaginary cards and constant badgering of the ref. Even my beloved St. Ruan needs to man up in this regard

Off the ball niggles, holding a player, pulling him back etc. Incenses me, I know it is wrong of me to say this, but players like that needs to be stamped out, either by the referee or alternatively with a proper round house to the chin.

It is as bad as taking a dive, both is deliberate cheating, trying to either impede a player to do his job, or to milk a penalty or card.

I am glad I am not playing rugby in the modern era, in our days these issues were quickly sorted in the next ruck, scrum or maul.

Ah the good old days. Much better to give a guy a broken jaw - that'll teach him. Should we really endorse such potentially career ending behaviour? That should get the crowds in - closely followed by the lawyers.

What McCarthy did was just plain stupid. If he was trying to get an opponent carded then that would only have happened after trial by TMO and his sham would have been exposed anyway.
Do we really want to see players cited for diving - if so where does it stop? What about the swing that prompted McCarthy to pretend it had connected? If every incident of cheating is 'cited' then the IRB would need an army of post-game watchers to go through games frame by frame - totally impractical.

Something else which along similar lines has been creeping into the game this superxv, and New Zealand teams have probably been among the worst offenders, is when a try is scored we get a ruck of defenders bodies diving in and around the try scorer so that any camera view is obstructed of the grounding if it gets referred to the TMO.

The Great Aukster wrote:Ah the good old days. Much better to give a guy a broken jaw - that'll teach him. Should we really endorse such potentially career ending behaviour? That should get the crowds in - closely followed by the lawyers.

What McCarthy did was just plain stupid. If he was trying to get an opponent carded then that would only have happened after trial by TMO and his sham would have been exposed anyway.
Do we really want to see players cited for diving - if so where does it stop? What about the swing that prompted McCarthy to pretend it had connected? If every incident of cheating is 'cited' then the IRB would need an army of post-game watchers to go through games frame by frame - totally impractical.

Personally yes i do! Its pathetic...

I agree all forms of gamesmanship like holding etc should be looked at, but diving is pitiful and to see a big guy like McCarthy doing that is a joke. I really hope his team mates have pulled him over it.

Shrek threw a punch / slap, which was wrong aswell...but its a collision sport you get hot spots in the game that needs to be managed.....but the reaction was pathetic

To be fair, Shrek struck out like that because McArthy was holding him off the ball - so Mike is wrong on both fronts!

Also worth noting that it had been happening all game - I remember Owens telling his linesmen to watch out for it because he had seen quite a lot of it so far.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Something else which along similar lines has been creeping into the game this superxv, and New Zealand teams have probably been among the worst offenders, is when a try is scored we get a ruck of defenders bodies diving in and around the try scorer so that any camera view is obstructed of the grounding if it gets referred to the TMO.

Good one Laurie... I agree, it's becoming a little cynical that most camera angles are increasingly covered in these all-in defensive systems... kinda almost like someone on team staff might have a distinct specialised job in plotting out the camera placings before a game.................     I might think that, if I was cynical.....

It's why I always say there should be no defenders allowed close to any attacking formations ten metres out from the tryline - too much potential for cheat-hiding the touch down...................  Adopt the rule NOW, IRB!  

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Something else which along similar lines has been creeping into the game this superxv, and New Zealand teams have probably been among the worst offenders, is when a try is scored we get a ruck of defenders bodies diving in and around the try scorer so that any camera view is obstructed of the grounding if it gets referred to the TMO.

From what I've seen it is across the board - definitely not just the Kiwis doing it regularly.

RDW_Scotland wrote:To be fair, Shrek struck out like that because McArthy was holding him off the ball - so Mike is wrong on both fronts!

Also worth noting that it had been happening all game - I remember Owens telling his linesmen to watch out for it because he had seen quite a lot of it so far.

Also thought I saw an outright fist shafted at a speeding oncoming player in an attack line. Yep, it seems the game was giving a lot of niggle for Owens to keep his eyes on.... add to that the speed of the game at times and he had his work cut out for him.

If its really obvious then its a penalty / yellow card at the time. If not it should be dealt with after the game - and mockery / shaming of those involved should be the main weapon but short bans as well should be given

We've got to stamp on this, if you see any youngsters copying it at your clubs then please get on top of it and stamp it out.

Both players should have been shown a yellow card.

TJ wrote:If its really obvious then its a penalty / yellow card at the time.  If not it should be dealt with after the game - and mockery / shaming of those involved should be the main weapon but short bans as well should be given

I'm working on it TJ!
Had tonnes of people sharing my vine of the incident on twitter and facebook.
Plus it was one of the first things that Brian Moore discussed on his Full Contact radio show last night (8:30 in if anyone wants to listen http://talksport.com/radio/listen-again/1401649200). McCarthy was named, shamed and ridiculed on national radio! Here's hoping that'll filter back to the man himself.

The Great Aukster wrote:Ah the good old days. Much better to give a guy a broken jaw - that'll teach him. Should we really endorse such potentially career ending behaviour? That should get the crowds in - closely followed by the lawyers.

What McCarthy did was just plain stupid. If he was trying to get an opponent carded then that would only have happened after trial by TMO and his sham would have been exposed anyway.

Do we really want to see players cited for diving - if so where does it stop? What about the swing that prompted McCarthy to pretend it had connected? If every incident of cheating is 'cited' then the IRB would need an army of post-game watchers to go through games frame by frame - totally impractical.

It is absolutely ridiculous, hugely disappointing and not a little disgusting that physical assaults seem to have been endorsed in days gone by, simply because you wanted to 'teach somebody a lesson'. It never was and never will be acceptable (in the eyes of the law). Thank goodness we've moved on, that sort of brutality has no place in the sport.

I think "Broken Jaw" was probably a tad of an exaggeration for emphasis.

But "teaching lessons" probably still goes on to some extent in the dark places where cameras don't reach. But it's probably the more dumb sides that would use it, as the more professional you are the more you're awake to the dangers of being drawn into a personal grudge dog fight.

So... 'lesson teaching' probably doesn't happen so much these days because of the very fact that it's counter productive to the result - and the result is big money and player reputations getting bigger salaries down the line. It's not because players have become angels overnight though.

Like has been said I think the first course of action is a yellow card for any offence of this nature, if this doesn't cure it (think it would) then punishments escalates.

There's a thin line between diving and over exaggeratng to draw the referees attention to foul play - for example in the Habana case, if he'd stayed on his feet or at least not gone down like he'd been hit by a sniper in Row 25, the referee would possibly (probably) have given Farrell a yellow for the obstruction.
We have uniquely in rugby a sport where certain forms of breaking or bending the rules are not cheating but other forms are - as posted above, subtle obstruction on a runner, boring in at the scrum, blocking at the line out, the "dark arts" and as my old coach used to say "things are only illegal if the referee sees them", but yet we get exercised about diving, waving imaginary cards, off the ball digs, backchat to the referee, etc. as the signs that the barbarians (or even worse the soccerballers) are at the gate.
For better of worse we don't live in the era where a yellow card would not have been needed as McCarthy or Habana would have been given a good slice of shoe pie for their efforts or where Farrell would have been reminded of his behaviour in the next ruck or got a bollocking of his captain either for doing it or being caught doing it - possibly both.

If you dive you should get a yellow card or a 1 match ban if not picked up during the game.

If you wave an imaginary card at the ref then he should wave a real yellow right back at you!

This diving nonsense is getting worse! The first time I saw it was Lee Byrne in the 6ns a few years ago! Now its happening more and more!

1. If any official suspects diving then refer to TMO
2. If diving confirmed then it's a Yellow card.
3. If a player has a history of it (stats must be available to TMO) then Red Card.

Would you ban Mr Hugens? Disgraceful play acting.....

They should make an example out of him....

Without doubt. Very clearly he pretended there was contact with his face, when in fact it was his chest. Much clearly than when someone make a meal out it.

Problem is they've not banned anyone in the past, so he'd have grounds for appeal if he was banned.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Problem is they've not banned anyone in the past, so he'd have grounds for appeal if he was banned.

Difference is, IMO, in the past people have exaggerated the effect, which is very difficult to prove.  In this case Huget fell to the floor clutching his face when there was clearly no contact with his face.  If he can't explain why he did it he should be banned.

EDIT: Think Rivaldo (?) when the ballwas kicked at him and it hit his chect and he did the same. He was banned, while it was very rare. Higher profile and more obvious but the same concept.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Simple answer. Red card and lengthy ban. Make an example now and it won't catch on.

100% agree, and if the ref is any doubt refer it immediately upstairs. It is toxic and will poison the game much as it has ruined football. Zero tolerance.

Did not see the Huget incident, so can only reply in general terms.

Making a Meal of it
If there has been genuine contact and a player is a victim of foul play, we can only ever guess whether people have done this. Even if they have, we also have to accept that the decisions by disciplinary panels to base sanctions on how effective a player has been in their foul play have encouraged players "making sure the ref notices".

Play Acting

Where a player falls, but TV shows there was zero contact - well surely this is bringing the game into disrepute? Not prevalent but anecdotally seems to be happening now. Must be stamped out - and as such any player guilty should be charged.

LondonTiger wrote:Did not see the Huget incident, so can only reply in general terms.

Making a Meal of it
If there has been genuine contact and a player is a victim of foul play, we can only ever guess whether people have done this.  Even if they have, we also have to accept that the decisions by disciplinary panels to base sanctions on how effective a player has been in their foul play have encouraged players "making sure the ref notices".

Play Acting

Where a player falls, but TV shows there was zero contact - well surely this is bringing the game into disrepute? Not prevalent but anecdotally seems to be happening now. Must be stamped out - and as such any player guilty should be charged.

I have a feeling the citing commission didn't help the situation when Gibson was struck, they said it didn't look like it hurt him or that he didn't go down so only gave a low end ban.

Cockerill wasn't best pleased about it and said at the time it would mean more diving enters the game.

EDIT: found the link: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/02/leicester-richard-cockerill-diving-rugby-blair-cowan

tigertattie wrote:

This diving nonsense is getting worse! The first time I saw it was Lee Byrne in the 6ns a few years ago! Now its happening more and more!

He was clearly tripped. It's unbelievable that you guys are yet to get over it when it was always going to be insignificant to the final standings. 5 years ago ffs. And in that 5 years I can't recall THAT much diving anyway, if any.

I was really disappointed the ref didn't have words yesterday, you'll never get a clearer case of diving, which was shown repeatedly on the replays (so at the ground too) and he just glossed over it. Weak reffing. Really weak reffing.

HammerofThunor wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Problem is they've not banned anyone in the past, so he'd have grounds for appeal if he was banned.

Difference is, IMO, in the past people have exaggerated the effect, which is very difficult to prove.  In this case Huget fell to the floor clutching his face when there was clearly no contact with his face.  If he can't explain why he did it he should be banned.

EDIT: Think Rivaldo (?) when the ballwas kicked at him and it hit his chect and he did the same. He was banned, while it was very rare.  Higher profile and more obvious but the same concept.

I still think the lack of precedent makes it difficult to ban people.

What the IRB (or whatever the hell they are called now) need to issue a directive saying they are concerned with the amount of play acting creeping into the game and that any future acts will be punished either on the pitch or retrospectively. There's no excuses then - players have been warned.

I don't agree with the issue around no precedent meaning it becomes difficult to ban someone!

There was no precedent for the first tip tackle but someone got a ban for doing it at some point!

If it were up to me I'd have the IRB looking back over previous incedents and issuing retrospective bans

Starting with a 4 month ban for Lee Byrne!

Well there have been a few incidence of Italian players diving in recent years but because of the low profile of their Pro12 games gone un noticed.

This has just brought a growing problem to a wider audience

Would have thought either unsportsman like conduct or bringing the game in to disrepute should cover it.

Comparing a tip tackle and diving is a bit shocking. Banning the former was a case of health and safety ffs. Not saying diving is fine but a bit of perspective is needed!