England's next Test spinner

Evening folks.

Today's day of County Championship action saw unbeaten centuries from the three most likely candidates for the England spinner's role. 138* from Moeen Ali, 164* from Scott Borthwick and 142* from Samit Patel. It seems there is an interesting debate to be had as to who should take that spot in the test team on the 12th June.

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of the good folk of this forum?

It'd be risky picking any of them, in terms of bowling at least. Would always go with a full-time spinner if a good enough one existed. However, there's a paucity of good spin options at the moment so there's a choice to be made between picking one of Tredwell, Monty or someone like Kerrigan, and picking 4 seamers plus a 'part-time' spinner.
Now the full time options would do a job, but would the team be better served with 4 seamers (Anderson, Broad, Jordan? and Stokes?) plus the part time spin of a Patel/Borthwick/Mooen? Add in that by playing one of these latter players you'd be able to lessen the pressure on the batting of Stokes (or Woakes, perhaps), and the 'keeper, whoever is selected, and it is a tempting idea. Personally, for the tests against Sri Lanka at least, I'd go with the part-timer, probably Mooen, to give a line up of:

1)Cook
2)Carberry/Robson/A.N. Other
3)Bell
4&5)Two of Ballance/Root/Taylor/Morgan/Vince/Bopara  
6)Mooen
7)Stokes/Woakes
8)'keeper
9)Broad
10)Jordan
11)Anderson

Only Hoggy could continue his 'Woakes for England' campaign under an article headed 'England's next Test spinner'.   

More later. After today at the Oval, I'm currently trying to buy a cat so I can then kick it! [That's just a bad joke for any animal lovers looking in.]   

Firmly behind the #beardthatsfeared here

My team would be

Cook
Robson
Bell
Root
Balance
Ali
Stokes
Buttler
Jordan
Broad
Anderson

You've got four seamers and two part time spinners in there, who can do the job well, especially in these earlier summer conditions

The batting is deep and has variety. Moeen should be top 6 if he plays, so Stokes moves down to 7, Buttler at 8, Jordan at 9, if we're in a good position these guys can do some real damage or provide a good counter punch if in trouble.

I don't think any of the so called "front line" spinners are good enough to warrant a place in the side.

For me, you need a specialist slow bowler for a five day Test match - unless you're the greatest side to have ever played on the planet and, yes, that's a bit of obvious bait to try and catch a missing young rebel!   

Two part-timers don't make one bowler. Root bowled too much for my liking in Australia and didn't really do a job with the ball.

Also, what do you do if a part time bowler does just about adequately with the ball but fails to score as a batsman? Selection becomes very messy and presents further problems.

Let's not forget that we need to replace - as far as that's possible - Swann. As flagged before, Panesar was far more a foil for Swann in the sub-continent and on home turners than his obvious replacement for more 'normal' English conditions. So even if we ignore that Panesar can't bat, can't field and can't turn up on time, he's not going to be my number one where guile and attrition are more relevant than natural spinning ability.

Kerrigan may one day be the successor but, if so, I don't think that day has arrived yet. I'm also concerned that after his mauling last summer at the Oval he'll be targetted again with possibly devastating consequences for his international future.

That leaves Tredwell as my short-term choice. The major weakness here is his failure at CC level for Kent, particularly this season. I accept that and don't pretend it doesn't concern me. However, let's not also forget that he was Swann's understudy for some time. Similar to Swann, his greatest ability isn't natural spin but his nous and capacity to remain unfazed (Tredwell's definitely impressed me in these regards in recent ODIs although I appreciate that as a reason for Test selection invites comparisons of apples and oranges).

Most of all, it's a gut feeling and sometimes you have to go with that. I just happen to feel that Tredwell bowls better with better bowlers around him and would continue to do so at Test level. I can certainly understand other posters feeling that Tredwell needs to deliver in 4 day cricket for Kent with someone like Robbie Joseph bowling at the other end before he gets a chance to bowl in 5 day cricket for England with the likes of Jimmy Anderson. However, I would still go with Tredwell. It is a gamble but I think any selection or non-selection of a slow bowler for England at Test level this summer has to be that.

Was my post that offputting?   

Anyway, just for that, I'll tell you later tonight another name that I've come across being thrown into the mix ....   

I see your point Guildford, but for me it can't be Tredwell. He can't break into the Kent CC side at the moment and has been comfortably outbowled by Adam Riley for a while now, in the longer form of the game. There is no way you can go from not making your County side to a Test, would make a mockery of it for me.

Having said that, I fully agree with you that we shouldn't pick a part timer. Or even two. Would be a huge mistake. You raise a good point that if Ali is the only spinner and is picked at 6, what do we do if he bowls adequately but can't buy a run? It would again, for me, make the selectors look rather foolish. Ali is making a very strong case to be picked as a pure batsman with his spin as a bonus, and I wouldn't mind that. But his spin shouldn't be an influence.

I'd give Panesar and a long and hard thought, what with India and SL being good players of spin and whether he would be useful as a stopgap this summer. But I suspect his latest crime is the final nail in the coffin of his case to be England's lone spinner again. And with his batting and fielding levels being below adequate, he would be completely wrong as a sign of the 'new era'.

It has to be Kerrigan for me. Has been the best English spinner in the County game for a while now and hopefully it has been long enough that he has been able to put last summer out of his mind and has made the necessary technical tweaks to not make the same mistakes again.

Does anyone know how Kerrigan is bowling this season? Haven't seen him mentioned a lot!

My thinking behind the part timer being OK is that the proper spin options are not of sufficient quality to cause the sub continental players trouble this summer, and thus they won't be taking enough wickets to justify there place. I feel we could get by with a part timer

However only if we pick an attacking seam option line up. If we're going with the likes of Bresnan I'd want a proper spinner in

Olly wrote:Does anyone know how Kerrigan is bowling this season? Haven't seen him mentioned a lot!

My thinking behind the part timer being OK is that the proper spin options are not of sufficient quality to cause the sub continental players trouble this summer, and thus they won't be taking enough wickets to justify there place. I feel we could get by with a part timer

However only if we pick an attacking seam option line up. If we're going with the likes of Bresnan I'd want a proper spinner in

Olly - if you go with ''an attacking seam option line up'' (maybe including both Stokes and Jordan), I think you do then need ''a proper spinner'' to tie up an end. A part-timer couldn't be relied upon to do that and nor imo could Kerrigan. I'm influenced here - perhaps overly and unfairly - from having seen Kerrigan absolutely mauled by Pietersen in a Surrey v Lancs CC match at Guildford in 2012.

Too late now to look up stats but my impression is that Kerrigan's done ok this season without being a shining light.

JD - good post in favour of Kerrigan whilst sensibly and fairly opposing Tredwell's selection.

I would certainly feel better - and save face!- if Tredwell could get back in the Kent CC side (perhaps alongside Riley) before the first Test.

One question for you - if Kerrigan bust a finger, who would you bring in instead? That in a way is my dilemma as I want a full time spinner but don't regard Kerrigan as fit for purpose - now, at least.

Graeme Ford, Surrey's head coach, writing in the June newsletter to members:
''...Whilst I am on four day cricket, I have to mention Gareth Batty's amazing eight wickets at Chelmsford. I am not one to single out individual performances, as it is a team game, but his performance against Essex was very special and deserves special mention.

I know the ECB say they are rebuilding their Test team but they should have a good long look at Gareth for the vacant spin position as he has what it takes and still has a lot of cricket in him!''

I won't say it's a ridiculous shout - indeed, there are parallels with my suggestion of Tredwell. However, having seen quite a lot of Batty, I have quite a lot of doubts!

Borthwick imo. Spins unlikely to be crucial this summer though.

The thing with Tredwell is I just see it as a 'safe' option. He does a job but is he really good enough? He can't get in the Kent team at the moment, surely that says something?   

I'm not a fan of Moeen Ali as the spin option, I just don't think his batting is good enough for the highest level. While I do think he's a bit better than just a part-time spin option (I would have his bowling on a par with say Duminy), he's not the best spinner in the country, nor is his batting good enough for a top 6 spot IMO.

Borthwick for me isn't quite there yet. He's got promise, and a great attitude, but isn't consistent enough to be the main spinner in a Test match just yet. As a second spinner in the subcontinent (backed up by Anderson, Broad and Stokes as a seam attack), why not? But not as the sole spinner, not yet.

Tredwell has been bowling nicely in the ODIs so far. I think one big issue that happened last year is that he switched to a much more defensive line, solely focussing on containment, and that didn't work for him. This series he's concentrated on a much more attacking line, and while he hasn't run through SL he's done a good job, certainly looked far more likely to get batsmen out (in other ways than mistiming one to deep fielders).

Having said that, I'd probably go with Kerrigan at this point in time. He froze last summer, but has been doing pretty well for Lancs from what I've seen (stats only), and has been consistently probably the best spinner in County Cricket over the last few years. I think it's now time to give him a chance.

guildford, I think I picked up a reference to Mike in one of your earlier posts. I can assure you that he's fine, but has been very busy with trying to wrap up his PhD in recent weeks, hence why he's not been on here very much. He's also in China at the moment for a couple of weeks so I would imagine won't be posting much in that time.

Mad - that's a good and informative post on all levels.

I agree with you about Borthwick.

I would also apply the term ''not yet'' that you used in respect of Borthwick to Kerrigan. I think he'll get better if he learns the game more at county level first. That said, I understand why you and JD are pushing for him.

I'm also with you about Moeen Ali as a spinner. For me, if he plays at Test level it's fundamentally as a batsman with his bowling very much a secondary, albeit possibly useful, factor. As for him as a batsman - rightly or wrongly, those of us fortunate enough to watch a bit of cricket at the ground (as opposed to just on tv) tend to be very influenced by what we see before us. He batted very cleverly and effectively against Surrey when I was at the Oval on Sunday and Monday this week. He's still more likely a 'possible' than a 'probable' but he definitely went up a few rungs on my selection ladder.

Back to the spinner. I'll ask you the question that I put to JD - if Kerrigan was unfit for the first Test, who would you choose instead? That's sort of my problem as I don't feel he is ready now. I realise you don't share that concern or, at least, not nearly so much.

Jimbo is right that Tredwell is a 'safe' option but I don't view that as making it wrong, particularly for a team in transition with some other new but much less experienced faces. Jimbo has a much stronger point about Tredwell not making the Kent side. I've already acknowledged that and tried to answer it as best I can.

Thanks for the news on Mike. This old timer has been missing the young rebel. Anyway, I look forward to his return here before too long as well as reading of the development of the Chinese national side!   

If Kerrigan were unfit, I'd pick Tredwell. As I said I think he's bowled well in the ODI series so far, much better lines, and would do a decent job if needed.

As for Kerrigan not being ready, he may not be. But he's played 4 seasons or so of County cricket now (61 matches according to Cricinfo) and has generally been consistently doing very well. I get that you saw KP slaughter him, but KP has slaughtered the best spinners in the world in the past, so I'm not going to put a huge amount of stock in that. I would ask though, how did Kerrigan respond? Was it like at the Oval where he lost all control and bowled all over the place, or was KP simply too good?

As for Moeen, my biggest problem with his batting was how much he struggled vs Narine and quality spinners in general. Given that the best bowlers England will face this summer are pretty much all spinners, I just don't think he's good enough.

Thanks, Mad.

I'm glad to see some support for Tredwell, albeit behind Kerrigan.

I take your point about Pietersen slaughtering others before and since. I certainly felt at the time - 2012 - I saw Kerrigan come up against Pietersen, he (Kerrigan) was nowhere near ready to play Tests against the world's bests. Kerrigan didn't lose it completely then like at the Oval a year later but definitely wobbled. Maybe that all continues to influence me too much but I would like him to have another complete season at county level before being considered for a further Test.

As for Moeen, all I would say is that he's done enough to put his name in contention.

Interesting question on who I'd go for if Kerrigan injured himself between now and the first Test and I think it would depend on the severity of the injury. If it was merely something that ruled him out of one or two games then I'd go for a stop gap, probably Tredwell with Panesar's issues still ongoing. If it was something, touch wood, that put him out for the whole summer then I may be more inclined to go with a younger option, perhaps Borthwick, but I would be wholely unconvinced by that and Tredwell could get the gig.

Was KP's dismantling of Kerrigan at Guildford Guildford?! Having never had the pleasure, how large are the boundaries there?

Thanks, JD. [Exams over now, I trust. Nice feeling.   ]

Yes, Pietersen's dismantling of Kerrigan was at Guildford where the boundaries are small. That probably gave Pietersen extra confidence to start the assault but balls were soon going miles!

Indeed! Is certainly a good feeling, if slightly daunting!

Yes, seems very much a nightmarish situation for Kerrigan to bowl in. However, I do share your concerns over his ability to deal with batsmen coming at him. I read a quote somewhere where he said he was desperate to bowl at Rogers rather than Watson as he knew he would be able to get away with his first few overs easier. Perhaps an accurate summation, but seems slightly the wrong attitude to take.

For me, if we're picking a full time spinner it has to be Kerrigan only (Monty would've been for sure, but he's got problems he needs to sort first). Whilst I see the argument for Tredwell, you can't pick a guy who can't even make his county xi and was awful in CC cricket last summer as well.

If not I'm firmly in the Moeen Ali camp. Bat him at 6, pick four aggressive bowlers (ala the Saffers with duminy and there seam bowling attack) and go from there.

Moeen is easily good enough to play as a batsman IMO. Scoring runs for fun for well over a year now

Difference for me is that we don't have the variation and strike ability in our attack that the Saffers do. We can't turn to an all time great in Steyn and we don't have anyone as nasty as Morkel to change things up. Say you go Anderson, Broad, Jordan and Stokes, that gets a bit samey on a hot summers day on a flat pitch for me.

Obviously we don't have the great Saffers attack, but without a proper spinner I think its the kind of idea we should use.

I'm not sure that attack is too samey. From what I've seen Jordan is quick, has a good bouncer on him, we know Broad loves a short one, Stokes seems to have a knack of picking up wickets, Anderson can swing it. Of course what would be great is if Finn can fulfill his potential cos then you've got your Morkel esque bowler

In overcast conditions, that attack would be fine. But if it stops swinging Anderson loses his potency, Stokes and Jordan can be expensive, then you are relying on Broad. Think you need a spinner there. Plus I rate Kerrigan and think he deserves a real go, even if I do have some doubts about his mentality.

The England seam bowling unit is very good in their conditions particularly. But to play with a half-decent parttimer as your main spinner, they have to be way, way better than that. They have to be, as a unit exceptional. James Anderson is king when the ball swings, can reverse the ball at times. But there are times when he has to burst batsman out like a Dale Steyn, that he becomes inadequate. Stuart Broad is talented, but he is far too mercurial. They have destroyed Steven Finn. Chris Jordan is untested at test level, and is prone to inconsistencies. Ben Stokes is an attacking bowler but again, is not the finished article. The likes of Tim Bresnan and the current version of Chris Tremlett are ordinary. WWith that kind of an attack, you can't go in with a parttimer. It has to be one of Panesar, Kerigan and Tredwell.
Borthwick just can't come into the mix, he doesn't land half of his deliveries and offer a hit-me-ball every 2nd attempt. His batting not international level for a top 6 batter. While Samit Patel is a little better with the ball, his batting is again not international class. From what I have seen of Ali, I tend to agree with MFC, his bowling is a bit better than that of a parttimer, say at a Duminy/Hafeez level. If none of the 3 regular spinners are in a position to be selected, then they should go for him. But only if that is the case as I have doubts over his batting abilities. Remember both Duminy and Hafeez are not able to clearly establish themselves in the test side due to their inconsistencies with the bat.

guildfordbat wrote:Graeme Ford, Surrey's head coach, writing in the June newsletter to members:
''...Whilst I am on four day cricket, I have to mention Gareth Batty's amazing eight wickets at Chelmsford. I am not one to single out individual performances, as it is a team game, but his performance against Essex was very special and deserves special mention.

I know the ECB say they are rebuilding their Test team but they should have a good long look at Gareth for the vacant spin position as he has what it takes and still has a lot of cricket in him!''

I won't say it's a ridiculous shout - indeed, there are parallels with my suggestion of Tredwell. However, having seen quite a lot of Batty, I have quite a lot of doubts!

This post is from June last year. I only flag it again as J Dizzle pointed out on another thread this week that Darren Gough appears to have caught up with it and has included Gareth Batty in his England side for the first Ashes Test.

I do feel Goughy is lagging behind. Whilst I didn't consider it a ridiculous shout last year, I still had quite a lot of doubts then and they have only grown since. Batty is a good county pro who knows his game and is unlikely to be taken to the cleaners in the way that Kerrigan was whenever it was. However, he doesn't have a great cutting edge and probably less than last season. He's also bowling less now at Surrey, partly due to Ansari's development and perhaps also due to carrying a suspected niggling injury.

If Goughy wants a bowler who has learnt his game in a similar way to Batty and commonly provides the sort of control that he (Gough) appears to be seeking, I would again suggest Tredwell who at least has won back his place in the Kent side and replaced last season's flavour Riley.

Certainly not for this summer but just possibly one for the future who I saw last week - Andrew Salter, Glamorgan off spinner. He's only just 22 and his figures so far are nothing special but I liked the look of him. Nice flight and variation, although needed to calm down a small touch when he didn't get any early breaks. He's just got through 30 overs against Leics in their first innings and taken 2/64, that should do him good.

Danny Briggs.

NickisBHAFC wrote:Danny Briggs.

Never been fully convinced.

Jimbo - thoughts?

Not sure he spins the ball enough for test cricket guys. Although he has done quite well this season and has massively improved with the bat.

He should be in the T20 side in my opinion.