Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hows his lineout work going?

 Master at it prob the best jumper in Leicester including Parling imo, commands it so well.

 Well I think that anyway.

He's probably more 4th choice at the moment as well. Surely ahead of both Slater and Kitchener? We'll see shortly whether Lancaster prefers him to Attwood. I think we all know Lancaster doesn't want to go down the route of the massive pack either.

kingelderfield wrote:Parling is 6th choice;

1 Lawes
2 Launchbury
3 Attwood
4 Slater
5 Kitchener
6 Parling

Our depth in SR is incredible, if only our wings were of the same quality.

Parling has not shown the form this year - last year YES but not this year - and if he's being brought back for his perceived lineout inteligence, well quite frankly I thought it was all getting a bit too clever clever at the end of last season.

However my primary concern is about grunt and by comparison he dosn't stack up as a carrier or defender or scrumager.

Its more impressive if you add Barrow, Stooke and Kruis in there aswell. Parling will begin to fall down the pecking order.

So does this mean Eastmond will start his first serious test for England at 12 in NZ.

Wow, thats quite a big thing.

Especially with probably Cipriani at 10.

If i was the AB's i'd be launching all my big fellas straight through that channel!

GeordieFalcon wrote:So does this mean Eastmond will start his first serious test for England at 12 in NZ.

Wow, thats quite a big thing.

Especially with probably Cipriani at 10.

If i was the AB's i'd be launching all my big fellas straight through that channel!

They could play Tuilagi IC with Trinder OC, but I just can't see why you would bother taking Eastmond to the other end of the world if you're not going to actually select him.

Ofcourse its a massive call and must be underwritten in that we don't read his entire future international career from this one appearance - WE CANNOT DO A ROBSINSON and hook him off after 30 minutes.

I would pair Eastmond with Tuilagi and have them swapping IC/OC as required. It does raise serious defensive issues as well as kicking options as mentioned above, however Eastmond won't back down in defense and we do have a backrow who can support.

Just watched the latest player podcast on the RFU site - surely they have a media manager or the like......the two Burns boys discussing attacking each other with golf clubs....very funny but....

I think if England can keep the margin of defeat below twenty points on Saturday, and still be in the game at half-time, then that will be a decent accomplishment.

Can't expect any better with this farcical scheduling.

King,

I imagine it will be
10 Cipriani
12 Eastmond
13 Tuilagi

Now to be honest if they click, it could be a seriosuly creative midfield.

In fairness to eastmond aswell his defence is generally solid and though lacking in height, he is very robust.

I agree it would probably be Tuilagi at 12 for certain defensive plays etc.

I haven't got any qualms regarding Eastmond's defence. He's strong and dense for his height.

As for Cipriani, there's been an improvement in his defence this season, but it's still not great (Slade could teach him a thing or two about defending the fly half channel!). With Cipriani playing, the flankers are just going to have to work extra hard to provide cover and defend the 10 channel too. Haskell's not slow, so I'm sure if he starts we'll see him near Cipriani when we're on the backfoot.

Duty281 wrote:I think if England can keep the margin of defeat below twenty points on Saturday, and still be in the game at half-time, then that will be a decent accomplishment.

Can't expect any better with this farcical scheduling.

I'm more confident than that and think it will be 5/10 points EITHER WAY.

It all depends on cutting them down at source and therefore the pack Lancaster selects?

If Marler and Webber are fit then it has to be;

Marler, Webber, Wilson,
Launchbury, Attwood,
Robshaw, Morgan, Haskell

That is a quality pack in anyone's backyard and with so much to play for.

Its New Zealands first game, there's still injuries for Woodcock and Savea to be clarified and if they go with Cruden then he's undercooked.

Its going to be a full house and the weather is set fair - its going to be a cracker and we have absolutely nothing to lose!

GeordieFalcon wrote:King,

I imagine it will be
10 Cipriani
12 Eastmond
13 Tuilagi

Now to be honest if they click, it could be a seriosuly creative midfield.

In fairness to eastmond aswell his defence is generally solid and though lacking in height, he is very robust.

I agree it would probably be Tuilagi at 12 for certain defensive plays etc.

I just hope Lancaster et al see it the same way.

kingelderfield wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I think if England can keep the margin of defeat below twenty points on Saturday, and still be in the game at half-time, then that will be a decent accomplishment.

Can't expect any better with this farcical scheduling.

I'm more confident than that and think it will be 5/10 points EITHER WAY.

It all depends on cutting them down at source and therefore the pack Lancaster selects?

If Marler and Webber are fit then it has to be;

Marler, Webber, Wilson,
 Launchbury, Attwood,
Robshaw, Morgan, Haskell

That is a quality pack in anyone's backyard and with so much to play for.

Its New Zealands first game, there's still injuries for Woodcock and Savea to be clarified and if they go with Cruden then he's undercooked.

Its going to be a full house and the weather is set fair - its going to be a cracker and we have absolutely nothing to lose!

I do rather applaud your optimism, but England, a hastily-assembled, far from first-choice England, are playing the world champions at a ground where they haven't been beaten for twenty years, and have won 31 games in a row there.

I do think England have fantastic depth, but they are massive underdogs for this one.

If England are going to be winning a sole test on this tour, which would be an incredible achievement, make no mistake, then the best chance is in the 3rd test, and certainly not this one.

I think a win is unlikely given the history, but I think this England side will push the ABs closer than many expect.

Marler and Webber are important - if they are fit, we will be fielding a fairly experienced pack that only really lacks Wood. The concern will be in terms of bench strength, but the ABs have some players missing too.

For me, the crucial question in the backs is whether whomever is picked at fly half gels with Care. It's unusual for a scrum half to be the creative force in an England side (not so much for France or SA), but at the moment DC is. If Cipriani or Burns can get on his wavelength, then that could be a very potent attack. Imagine if Catt can get a two-sided attack going, with Care at pivot, Cipriani feeding Tuilagi on one side and Eastmond feeding Brown on the other.

Another option is for Robshaw to be asked to play link man off Care and buy time for Cipriani or Burns to feed the attack.

For defence, I imagine that the pack will be asked to help defend in the 10 channel. Marler can be a brutal tackler and is very quick around the park (especially for a prop). I'm not sure who's quicker of Haskell or Johnson but I expect the pack to emphasise workrate over silky skills.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So does this mean Eastmond will start his first serious test for England at 12 in NZ.

Wow, thats quite a big thing.

Especially with probably Cipriani at 10.

If i was the AB's i'd be launching all my big fellas straight through that channel!

Of course that does mean we know they will do that

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So does this mean Eastmond will start his first serious test for England at 12 in NZ.

Wow, thats quite a big thing.

Especially with probably Cipriani at 10.

If i was the AB's i'd be launching all my big fellas straight through that channel!

Of course that does mean we know they will do that

Baldrick has a cunning plan.........

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So does this mean Eastmond will start his first serious test for England at 12 in NZ.

Wow, thats quite a big thing.

Especially with probably Cipriani at 10.

If i was the AB's i'd be launching all my big fellas straight through that channel!

Of course that does mean we know they will do that

Well of course, the fact that they know that we know that they will hammer the 10-12 channel isnt going to stop it happening...  

I can buy it actually, though, and get this, on the basis Cipriani starts, not Burns (happy with Burns on the bench but not to start). Cipriani has shown form and maturity and to pick Burns over Cipriani has no justification what so ever given the seasons they've each had. If Lancaster gives it a load of horlix about 'knowing the systems' well that would be cockadodaldo.

I'm not obviously for one moment saying that Cipriani is a defensive genius, oh no, but he is improved and has performed said duties better than Burns.

If things are going wrong they can always move Manu into the 12 channel.

Saw an interview with Retalick on Sky where he said he could only name one Eglish player "Michael Lawes". That should be played to the boys to fuel the fire a bit.

Apparently Kieran Read is going to miss the game

Apparently Jerome Kaino will take his place.   

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Apparently Jerome Kaino will take his place.   

Tough break!

The question is who will Lancaster select? Unfortunately he's got form, so to speak, when it comes to picking poor combinations, starting and from the bench.

Bomber are you the weakest link?

kingelderfield wrote:The question is who will Lancaster select? Unfortunately he's got form, so to speak, when it comes to picking poor combinations, starting and from the bench.

Bomber are you the weakest link?

He's also got form for picking good combinations - Lawesbury, Woodshaw, Burrell & Twelvetrees. On balance he's probably picked more good combinations than bad, certainly compared to his predecessors. SCW didn't find his best combination until the autumn before the RWC.

Poorfour wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:The question is who will Lancaster select? Unfortunately he's got form, so to speak, when it comes to picking poor combinations, starting and from the bench.

Bomber are you the weakest link?

He's also got form for picking good combinations - Lawesbury, Woodshaw, Burrell & Twelvetrees. On balance he's probably picked more good combinations than bad, certainly compared to his predecessors. SCW didn't find his best combination until the autumn before the RWC.

The thing is as I remember it wasn't poor selection from Woodward more a case of selecting the then best available options. Whereas Lancaster genuinely has form when it comes to detrimentally affecting the outcome of games or at least our ability to proficiently offer an attacking threat.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Apparently Jerome Kaino will take his place.   

  

Looks like burns will start according to reports.
I just hope whoever plays at 10/12 isnt crucified and written off if they don't put in exceptional performances like what happened in 2008.
Charlie Hodgson didn't deserve that.

I don't always like this "next cab of the rank" selection.
Cab drivers have a phrase known as brooming
Lancaster should take note

T1 Officials;

New Zealand vs England at Eden Park, Auckland
Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Jérôme Garcès (France)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)
Assessor: Andrew Cole (Australia)

(don't rate Peyper)

Owens is a great ref

Excellent news re Owens reffing. Given the mess of the scrum and to a lesser extent the breakdown it's far easier to criticise refs than praise them which says a lot of the respect Owens now demands.

Back to the rugby the absence of Read and Twelvetrees are a real shame. Both would have been key players for their respective sides. Perpetual build up of injuries due largely to too much rugby is the biggest frustration for me in the current game.

Hoping that the remaining injury issues such as Webber, Marler and Savea pull through it's looking like we will see:

1.Woodcock - Marler
2.Coles or Mealamu - Webber
3.Franks - Wilson
4.Retallick - Launchbury
5.Whitelock - Attwood
6.Messam - Johnson or Haskell
7.McCaw - Robshaw
8.Kaino - Morgan

9.A Smith - Care
10.Cruden or Barrett - Burns or Cipriani

11.Savea - Yarde
12.Nonu - Eastmond
13.C Smith - Tuilagi
14.B Smith - May
15.Dagg - Brown

With Jane set to fill in for Savea if he doesn't pull through. Likewise Dave Ward for Webber and Matt Mullan for Marler.

We have to have parity in the forwards otherwise there is no contest. So to start with Mullan and or Ward would be a significant and telling blow.

Haskell must start over Johnson. Haskell has the physicality at least to compete with the blacks. Johnson is a decent player but I just think Haskell is a better option at 6.

Poorfour wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:The question is who will Lancaster select? Unfortunately he's got form, so to speak, when it comes to picking poor combinations, starting and from the bench.

Bomber are you the weakest link?

He's also got form for picking good combinations - Lawesbury, Woodshaw, Burrell & Twelvetrees. On balance he's probably picked more good combinations than bad, certainly compared to his predecessors. SCW didn't find his best combination until the autumn before the RWC.

Well that was a cop out. Bwelvetrees it is.

oh come on - burrtrees is much better

Burrellagi or TuiTrees could also come into play here though ..

Tuimond for the 1st test doesnt sound too bad.

I stand corrected. Any of those are better.

I see SKY are calling it with Burns and Eastmond to start. Now if this were June 2013 then I'd agree with Burns's selection but that is an enormous dullop of faith and loyalty Lancaster is giving with this choice.

Someone previously said they'd be watching from the behind sofa.........10 pints of larger and a packet of crisps please or as the man said, 'squeaky bum time'.

kingelderfield wrote:We have to have parity in the forwards otherwise there is no contest. So to start with Mullan and or Ward would be a significant and telling blow.

I think Mullan will hold his own. He did a decent job off the bench against NZ in the Autumn and Italy in the 6N.

I can't see past Burrellagi for T2.

Depends how Twelvetrees fairs as well as how whoever is chosen on Saturday go. Suddenly have a few options (especially if Eastmond plays well) and shows how well Lancaster has done in integrating a number of new players.

bluestonevedder wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:We have to have parity in the forwards otherwise there is no contest. So to start with Mullan and or Ward would be a significant and telling blow.

I think Mullan will hold his own. He did a decent job off the bench against NZ in the Autumn and Italy in the 6N.

I'm comfortable with both Mullan and Ward as impact from the bench, but to start.....and then that assumes Catt on the bench......and that is beyond credible....and I don't doubt Catt would play out of his skin but come off it he's 5th choice!

kingelderfield wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:We have to have parity in the forwards otherwise there is no contest. So to start with Mullan and or Ward would be a significant and telling blow.

I think Mullan will hold his own. He did a decent job off the bench against NZ in the Autumn and Italy in the 6N.

I'm comfortable with both Mullan and Ward as impact from the bench, but to start.....and then that assumes Catt on the bench......and that is beyond credible....and I don't doubt Catt would play out of his skin but come off it he's 5th choice!

Sorry I didn't read the part about him starting. I agree with you about him as an impact player. He's incredibly mobile for a prop, and really covers some ground, so against a slightly more tired All Blacks team (if they experience tiredness) he could be very useful. His scrummaging is strong, so no qualms there.

For me Catt shouldn't be near the test squads. A decent club man, but not international for me. We'll see him in the test 23 for injury cover only.

kingelderfield wrote:I see SKY are calling it with Burns and Eastmond to start. Now if this were June 2013 then I'd agree with Burns's selection but that is an enormous dullop of faith and loyalty Lancaster is giving with this choice.

Someone previously said they'd be watching from the behind sofa.........10 pints of larger and a packet of crisps please or as the man said, 'squeaky bum time'.

Well they've all been in training, so he'll have looked at everyone.

A few of us have said previously, maybe getting back into this England set up will do wonders for Burns.

Its seems a far better, happier camp that people want to be part of unlike Martin Johnsons, which people seemed to want to get out of.

bluestonevedder wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:We have to have parity in the forwards otherwise there is no contest. So to start with Mullan and or Ward would be a significant and telling blow.

I think Mullan will hold his own. He did a decent job off the bench against NZ in the Autumn and Italy in the 6N.

I'm comfortable with both Mullan and Ward as impact from the bench, but to start.....and then that assumes Catt on the bench......and that is beyond credible....and I don't doubt Catt would play out of his skin but come off it he's 5th choice!

Sorry I didn't read the part about him starting. I agree with you about him as an impact player. He's incredibly mobile for a prop, and really covers some ground, so against a slightly more tired All Blacks team (if they experience tiredness) he could be very useful. His scrummaging is strong, so no qualms there.

For me Catt shouldn't be near the test squads. A decent club man, but not international for me. We'll see him in the test 23 for injury cover only.

Cheers, mine's a pint...that's 11 pints off larger and a packet of crisps please. Thirsty work this Burns watching!

Oh and whats with all these name abbreviations!!!!   

Another possibility in the AB is.

 6. Kaino
 7. Mccaw
 8. Vito

 Would fit the current plan more of a wide running 8 in the backs type player.

 Either way All black certainly struggling with depth.

Cant wait to see Michael laws in action in the second test, a must start in englands second row.




 http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9335923,00.html

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:I see SKY are calling it with Burns and Eastmond to start. Now if this were June 2013 then I'd agree with Burns's selection but that is an enormous dullop of faith and loyalty Lancaster is giving with this choice.

Someone previously said they'd be watching from the behind sofa.........10 pints of larger and a packet of crisps please or as the man said, 'squeaky bum time'.

Well they've all been in training, so he'll have looked at everyone.

A few of us have said previously, maybe getting back into this England set up will do wonders for Burns.

Its seems a far better, happier camp that people want to be part of unlike Martin Johnsons, which people seemed to want to get out of.

Also, Burns actually has a lot of experience being in the England camp. He knows the drills, requirements, and plays. That's quite an advantage over Cipriani!

To be honest, I wouldn't mind either of them starting. I think to beat the All Blacks we'll need some flair and play-making ability. Burns and Cips both bring that, so it's moot for me.

Welly wrote:Cant wait to see Michael laws in action in the second test, a must start in englands second row.




 http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9335923,00.html

Yeah i commented on the other thread about this.

A bit of tongue in cheek....however if Lawes plays to the top of his game and Brodie is on the receiving end of a few of Courtney specials...he wont have trouble remembering his name in the future...tongue in cheek or not    

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:I see SKY are calling it with Burns and Eastmond to start. Now if this were June 2013 then I'd agree with Burns's selection but that is an enormous dullop of faith and loyalty Lancaster is giving with this choice.

Someone previously said they'd be watching from the behind sofa.........10 pints of larger and a packet of crisps please or as the man said, 'squeaky bum time'.

Well they've all been in training, so he'll have looked at everyone.

A few of us have said previously, maybe getting back into this England set up will do wonders for Burns.

Its seems a far better, happier camp that people want to be part of unlike Martin Johnsons, which people seemed to want to get out of.

Also, Burns actually has a lot of experience being in the England camp. He knows the drills, requirements, and plays. That's quite an advantage over Cipriani!

To be honest, I wouldn't mind either of them starting. I think to beat the All Blacks we'll need some flair and play-making ability. Burns and Cips both bring that, so it's moot for me.

Add in Eastmond at 12 and Care at 9 and you have a strong axis of creativity...i just hope physically they can cope.

And saying that Robshaw and Wood can cover is not ideal as it means even more work for them, when they work their a$$es off alread...