England - Summer Tour

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

There is an awful lot of Sport currently being played in the US and Canada. The problem, at least for the moment, is that the US – Canada border is still closed. Presuming it opens, there should be no issues with the tour.  With the current rate of vaccines in both countries combined with the warm weather working against the virus, I would be confident life here will be ‘somewhat more normal’ and the tour could go ahead. And in fact should go ahead. I think there will be fans in the stands, too.

Theres going to be quite a lot of filler in this squad. Will have to have a think. The obvious ones are some of the editing young players but it's how to pad it out and give some experience. I'll be back.

Grauniad saying EJ has namechecked Simmonds J and Smith M for the summer tour.

For a summer tour like this, are these proper capped internationals? If so, do the players get paid the same as for other internationals? Just wondering.

Ok Hows about something like this for Starters...this 33 man squad?

LHP: Genge, Obano, West
HK: Dunn, Blamire, Barbeary (can cover back row aswell)
THP: Stuart, Heyes, Street
LK: Ewels, J.Hill, G. Martin, Isiekwe
BR: B. Curry, B. Earl, T. Willis, T.Hill, Dombrandt
18

SH: Spencer, Randall, Mitchell
FH: Simmonds, M. Smith
IC: Devoto, Lawrence
OC: Odogwu, Marchant
WG: Cokanasiga, Thorley, Radwan
FB: Malins, Steward, Parton
15

LHP: Genge, Obano, West
HK: Dunn, Blamire, Barbeary (can cover back row aswell)
THP: Stuart, Heyes, Street
LK: Ewels, J.Hill, G. Martin, Isiekwe
BR: B. Curry, B. Earl, T. Willis, T.Hill, Dombrandt
18

SH: Spencer, Randall, Mitchell
FH: Simmonds, M. Smith
IC: Devoto, Lawrence
OC: Odogwu, Marchant
WG: Cokanasiga, Thorley, Radwan
FB: Malins, Steward, Parton
15

You have forgotten European player of the year and Josh Hodge might be worth a punt at FB

Josh Hodge?? The lad is no-where near ready

And Sam Simmonds...id take him as a 12...but we have Earl who can do the same job

Umaga may also be in contention.

I do think taking J Hill would be a good idea. He's not done well so far but our 1st choice crop has been pretty good these last few years. A bit more time in a less demanding environment might help him up his game.

Looks like a decent start GF but i'd imagine Launchbury, Wilson (no longer a long term option), Ford and a few other senior players will go for some continuity.

I’m not sure I could make a stab at the overall squad (too many variables at the moment), but I would love to see some of the following players get involved…

At scrum half I think we desperately need some new blood to come in and try to make a challenge, so I’d love to see Eddie take any one (or two) of the following; Harry Randall (Bristol), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester), Alex Mitchell (Northampton), Charlie Chapman (Gloucester) or Will Porter (Wasps). For what it is worth I'd make them back up to Spencer.

Back-row is an interesting area, I think there is a combination of flankers for all, there is talent out there like Will Evans (Harlequins) or Ben Curry (Sale) that never seem to get a mention, yet in another era of English rugby would be mainstays of the team. As it goes, I would like to see some traditionally gnarly and tall blindside called up. With that in mind I would definitely want Ted Hill (Worcester) on the plane. I would also like more of a look at George Martin (Leicester), Richard Capstick (Exeter) may be worth a look too.

Full back is an obvious one. I think Malins will (should) go, but there needs to be somebody else too. You could make an argument for Freddie Steward (Leicester), Tom de Glanville (Bath), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), Josh Hodge (Exeter) or Tom Parton (London Irish).

They are just off the top of my head, I’ll think about other positions later!

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Stuart
4 J. Hill / Ewells
5 Martin
6 T. Hill
7 Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Randall
10 Smith
11 Radwan
12 Devoto
13 Lawrence
14 Odogwu
15 Steward

That is a fun looking team. I'd be wary of kicks coming Odogwu's way, and there are questions over Devoto being a short term pick but I like it. Obano for Genge might be worthwhile.

It is the persistent question, if not Farrell at 12, then who? It is a question that has dogged England for about 15 years now and it is mental that in all that time nobody (aside from Farrell) has properly put their hands up.

I even look at the youngsters and think and despair, none of them make you think now he is a player that we can build a backline around', even Lawrence is an outside centre that we are trying to fashion into a 12 due to the paucity of options.

Give me hope, who is there? I was hoping Redpath might be an option, but not to be.

rosbif wrote:
LHP: Genge, Obano, West
HK: Dunn, Blamire, Barbeary (can cover back row aswell)
THP: Stuart, Heyes, Street
LK: Ewels, J.Hill, G. Martin, Isiekwe
BR: B. Curry, B. Earl, T. Willis, T.Hill, Dombrandt
18

SH: Spencer, Randall, Mitchell
FH: Simmonds, M. Smith
IC: Devoto, Lawrence
OC: Odogwu, Marchant
WG: Cokanasiga, Thorley, Radwan
FB: Malins, Steward, Parton
15

You have forgotten European player of the year  and Josh Hodge might be worth a punt at FB

I mean I could thin of 1 myself but that core is great. If probably be taking lunchbury as captain, Evans, painter maybe Dingwall.

Cumbrian wrote:It is the persistent question, if not Farrell at 12, then who?  It is a question that has dogged England for about 15 years now and it is mental that in all that time nobody (aside from Farrell) has properly put their hands up.  

I even look at the youngsters and think and despair, none of them make you think now he is a player that we can build a backline around', even Lawrence is an outside centre that we are trying to fashion into a 12 due to the paucity of options.

Give me hope, who is there? I was hoping Redpath might be an option, but not to be.

12 Options

Cameron re... oh
Johnny Williams.... hmm

I wonder when Umaga will agree to play for Tonga.

Sam James, O'Connor?

This is weird but I cannot think of any inside centres tearing it up in the Premiership right now. There must be one....

Esterhuizen. Oh, hang on...

Mr Bounce wrote:Esterhuizen. Oh, hang on...  

you are right though....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Josh Hodge?? The lad is no-where near ready

And Sam Simmonds...id take him as a 12...but we have Earl who can do the same job

Just waltzing past some Welsh lad.

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1375504037932584962?s=19

Re Jones' name drops as well as simmonds and snoth he pointed out Atkinson and Fin Smith.

I have seen on a few England topics people saying that Ben Earl should be picked at no 8 ahead of Sam Simmonds. I struggle to understand this.  Ben Earl is not a specialist no 8 – he was at best second choice behind Jackson Wray at Saracens and is at best second choice behind Nathan Hughes at Bristol.  Both English players, but I don’t see either being mentioned as possible picks for the summer tour.

Sam Simmonds is a specialist no 8 and first choice at his club – who happen to be English and European champions.  He is also European player of the year.  Being childish I think Sam Simmonds has 14 tries this season and Ben Earl 1.

It is probably academic anyway as Simmonds will almost certainly be on the Lions tour whilst Earl won’t.  Assuming this is the case, I hope England pick a specialist no 8 for the Summer tour which means Dombrandt.  If Curry and Underhill are England’s preferred flankers into the World Cup, Dombrandt seems to give much better balance than Earl or Simmonds.

We know what Ewels and Hill can do in the second row.   If we are going to live with South Africa we need to find a second row with a bit of grunt.  We know what Launchbury offers and he isn't getting any younger.  So I would like to see a Ribbans and Kpoku second row.

On the summer tour, I don't think either the US or Canada will provide the kind of tough opposition we need the younger players to face. Maybe, if we are lucky, on a level with Italy, but not better. So I wouldn't overthink the tour. I would certainly give the young or fringe players a chance to show what they can do, but I would not want any England regulars or semi-regulars to go.

nlpnlp wrote:It is probably academic anyway as Simmonds will almost certainly be on the Lions tour whilst Earl won’t.  Assuming this is the case, I hope England pick a specialist no 8 for the Summer tour which means Dombrandt.  If Curry and Underhill are England’s preferred flankers into the World Cup, Dombrandt seems to give much better balance than Earl or Simmonds.

There is absolutely no chance Simmonds will going on the Lions tour, not a Gatland back row player at all.

Hard pitches. He'd be good but yes doesn't really suit a typical gatland game plan.

doctor_grey wrote:On the summer tour, I don't think either the US or Canada will provide the kind of tough opposition we need the younger players to face.  Maybe, if we are lucky, on a level with Italy, but not better.  So I wouldn't overthink the tour.  I would certainly give the young or fringe players a chance to show what they can do, but I would not want any England regulars or semi-regulars to go.      

That may be the case about the level of opposition but you still need to get them on the pitch in an England shirt.  This is the best opportunity for the likes of Smith etc.

If they make it look like a training run out then they can be considered for the AI's....if they struggle...then maybe they're not quite ready...

And some people, if suggest the majority are not truly ready for internationals. It generally take about 10 games id say to consistently see what someone's about.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:On the summer tour, I don't think either the US or Canada will provide the kind of tough opposition we need the younger players to face.  Maybe, if we are lucky, on a level with Italy, but not better.  So I wouldn't overthink the tour.  I would certainly give the young or fringe players a chance to show what they can do, but I would not want any England regulars or semi-regulars to go.      

That may be the case about the level of opposition but you still need to get them on the pitch in an England shirt.  This is the best opportunity for the likes of Smith etc.

If they make it look like a training run out then they can be considered for the AI's....if they struggle...then maybe they're not quite ready...

That's a good point. I just don't want any front line players to go. Gains nothing and risks injury. I agree this is the place for Smith to shine, and I think he will. For Malins to shine. For Ribbans, for Tom Freeman or Ollie Sleightholme (a cheap Saints plug there). Potentially O'Connor. Obano for sure. Barbeary a definite as long as he has medical clearance. Mitchell or Spencer, Joe Simmonds, and so on. No need for Jonny Hill, Charlie Ewels and the like.

So it's a saxons tour basically.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it's a saxons tour basically.

That's exactly what it should be in my opinion. England are not playing the Boks, Wallabies, or ABs. What's the point of a senior tour against the USA. AJ McGinty is their starting out half, or at least was the last time they played. No disrespect to him, but that is the level we are talking about. A Premiership level side. Same for Canada. And these are the games which help them develop and us to see the next gen players.

I'd say especially at this point after the 6 nations when there is a need for fresh blood being able to ease people in with as many full internationals is perhaps beneficial as throwing them into a completely new team. A lot does depend on the lions though.

Earl having a bit of a shocker today ...

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say especially at this point after the 6 nations when there is a need for fresh blood being able to ease people in with as many full internationals is perhaps beneficial as throwing them into a completely new team. A lot does depend on the lions though.

Whilst I prefer a saxons style tour....you actually make a valid point..Eddie may want to take a stronger team especially if he's wanting to trial a new system etc.

Furbank scored a nice try then limped off.

Not sure we'll see him in an England squad again though

I think furbank will not need another coach to come in as I can't see Jones going back to him. I don't think he's good enough at this level at full back. I assume he was playing there today and not fly half?

Having seen Smith outplay Sheepy by a distance I am a bit worried that Gatland may be tempted to take him to SA. He buggered up Wades chance and I don't want to see that again.

Watching the saints game...they have some good young kids..

Slightholme Jr, Grayson Jr, Freeman at full back looks a good player..Mitchell at 9 playing very well today

Not for this tour by any means given its his first start todat at wasps but Quirke may be a name we're mentioning this time next year.

How far off is the tour now. Dunn is about to get a long ban i think.

Dunn was being taken out by a decoy runner and tried to get on a better position to tackle the man behind. Nothing in it for me.

Yeah I suppose when you don't know the laws that's a fair position tight.

On the 12 issue, we may have to stick a square peg in a round hole. If we want a flat track bully there isn't one. If we we meant a competent defenfensive leader who can distribute then one of slade, devito, marchant or ollie Lawrence will have to front up. I was hoping mallinder would have picked 12 and be an option but injury and wanting to be a 15 has stopped that.

Given England's performance in this years 6ns i cannot see may England players being selected for the Lions tour to be honest....So would like the summer tour to rest England's full time players and concentrate on bringing in new players.

England deffo need players in the 9,10,12,15, for starters. I would also like to see at the end of the tour a complete and better England side going forward.

I believe Marchant is the long term hope at centre. Lawrence and Odogwu look like place holders.

majesticimperialman wrote:Given England's performance in this years 6ns i cannot see may England players being selected for the Lions tour to be honest....So would like the summer tour  to rest England's full time players and concentrate on bringing in new players.

England deffo need players in the 9,10,12,15, for starters. I would also like to see at the end of the tour a complete and better England side going forward.

Agree.  And I would also like to see some alternatives tried in the front row and second row and number 8.  We certainly need to know who is not just next in the queue, but who might be the next long term players.

The annoying part of the lions is that the only players likely to get selected are those that would've been retained in the squad. The good thing about the debacle this winter is that it makes it much easier for him to look beyond the underperformers and outright drop them, bringing genuine opportunities to the problematic areas (midfield) as well as the places where we are already strong.

Captaincy will be a big problem. Theoretically if anyones good enough to get the job long term they should be on the Lions tour. Surely Farrell cant be persisted with, and the noises from Jones do suggest he's had enough and likely is getting the push for this from Connor Oshea.

Might be better for England if the Lions doesnt go ahead, allow them to get a new captain and have the new players alongside the stars that will be retained not just some squad dregs.

Ideal time for England to be playing a low pressure weak opposition tour, although the scotland game could be interesting to say the least.

On capt, Tom curry or maro itoje. I suspect Tom curry would be a better choice as he is penalised less. I think farrell will probably come back into the reckoning when the burden of captaincy is removed.

This summer tour and the autumn internationals will hopefully give us a better understanding who has the minerals to play international rugby. It's a shame we have to wait so long.

Curry has too much to do as it is without being burdened by captaincy. Itoje might be the way to go, refs tend to be more lenient on the captain.

Itoje gets penalised because he plays right on the edge of the offside line. The amount he gets penalised depends upon the individual referee.

I don't think that line about how often he's penalised makes much sense in this case. In fact, being captain may well force him to be a little less reckless.

Either Itoje or Curry must be front runners, not least because they are both automatic choices and will remain so as long as they stay healthy. I don't think either will naturally fit into the role. I am sure Itoje would master it in time. Curry I don't know but then I don't know any reason why he wouldn't work either. Curry is already in a role where he is watching what is happening over the whole pitch, which may help him. I don't know how much he is involved in organising the players around him.

Most of the RWC winning captains are forwards.   I think this makes the point that players in the positions Curry and Itoje play can handle the load and do the captain job as well as long as they have the leadership chops to go with it.  One of the most successful non-RWC winning captains was George Gregan, a scrum half.  

Francois Pienaar, Back Row
John Eales, 2nd row
Martin Johnson, 2nd row
John Smit, Hooker, Prop
Richie McCaw, Back Row
Siya Kolisi, Back Row

Get this side out there...

1. Obano
2. Dunn
3. Stewart
4. Launchbury
5. Ewels
6. Hill
7. Curry
8. Barbeary

9. Randall
10. Smith
11. Thorley
12. O'Connor
13. Marchant
14. Radwan
15. Hodge