England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Get this side out there...

1. Obano
2. Dunn
3. Stewart
4. Launchbury
5. Ewels
6. Hill
7. Curry
8. Barbeary

9. Randall
10. Smith
11. Thorley
12. O'Connor
13. Marchant
14. Radwan
15. Hodge

That's a nice side.  Launchbury to lead it, I presume  But Dunn might not be available this summer due to his red card yesterday.  And I don't think we will learn anything new about Ewels, so I suggest making the side a little more 'Saintly' and play Ribbans instead.

Would Kpoku be looked at despite not playing much rugby?

And thats without Lawrence Odogwu Mitchell dombrandt cokansiga. Choices

Would be good to see Thorley involved

O'conner is a good shout, good hands, gas and looks like a good defender. Another wasp who got away

Yoda wrote:O'conner is a good shout, good hands, gas and looks like a good defender. Another wasp who got away

He's the only good young EQ Inside Centre in the Premiership.

Told you all, there's no smoke without a fire:-

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/333789/warren-gatland-on-the-radar-as-rfu-probe-boss-jones/

That continues to be smoke until there's an announcement. Would be a disaster for us.

Re the summer tour it may be worth just picking a load of the dual qualification players even if not quite ready yet. Give them a run from the bench. Popped into my head while watching Hayes and Kelly for Leicester yesterday.

I would like to see the tour be limited to under 25s. Lets see what these kids that seem to be coming along in a virtually endless supply can do.

If there are no standouts in a position then take an old head to give some experience, not an established international player. We should know what they can do.

doctor_grey wrote:

Yoda wrote:O'conner is a good shout, good hands, gas and looks like a good defender. Another wasp who got away

He's the only good young EQ Inside Centre in the Premiership.  

There is another one Doc, but he seems to have chosen a different position. I'll give you a clue, he has a name sake living in California and his missus is expecting a second child.

Still getting back after long term injuries, but with the competition at 15 (Furbank, Tuala and now Freeman) he may decide to switch back. He has all the potential to be the best 12 England have had since Greenwood.

Prince Harry!!!!!!
The one without the drama.

Every time he looks good he's injured. Would be lovely to have him as an option.

I think he has missed the boat as far as 15 is concerned, he's going to competing against three of four genuinely viable options over the next couple of years.

He's got some time on his side (although he turns 25 in a couple of months), so if he was going to make the decision to convert to 12 he would be better off doing it sooner.

English qualified centres 25 or under who have been getting game time (or present an interesting case) feel free to add names:

Max Ojomoh (Bath)
Max Wright (Bath)
Piers O’Connor (Bristol)
Corey Baldwin (Exeter)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins)
Guy Porter (Leicester)
Dan Kelly (Leicester)
Phil Cocknasinga (Irish)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton)
Luke James (Sale)
Will Bulter (Worcester)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester)

Not particularly inspiring…

He has the full skill set and now his shoulder is fixed should be able to tackle properly. Having said that the latest interpretation of the tackle laws is not going to suit him, he is taller than most locks.

Cumbrian wrote:English qualified centres 25 or under who have been getting game time (or present an interesting case) feel free to add names:

Max Ojomoh (Bath)
Max Wright (Bath)
Piers O’Connor (Bristol)
Corey Baldwin (Exeter)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins)
Guy Porter (Leicester)
Dan Kelly (Leicester)
Phil Cocknasinga (Irish)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton)
Luke James (Sale)
Will Bulter (Worcester)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester)

Not particularly inspiring…

Odogwu has been considered a centre in a lot of posts.

perhaps we need to follow the George North example and think about players like Joe Cocknasinga at 13. These are professional rugby players, the Australians have no issues with moving their centres to the wing or vice versa, or from / to 15, we should be coaching our players the skills to play across the board. After the first couple of passages of play everybody is out of position anyway, they should have the skills to play the position they find themselves on the field.

I wonder what Watson would be like at 13, he does have a pretty full skill set and we have wingers by the dozen.

Cumbrian wrote:English qualified centres 25 or under who have been getting game time (or present an interesting case) feel free to add names:

Max Ojomoh (Bath)
Max Wright (Bath)
Piers O’Connor (Bristol)
Corey Baldwin (Exeter)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins)
Guy Porter (Leicester)
Dan Kelly (Leicester)
Phil Cocknasinga (Irish)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton)
Luke James (Sale)
Will Bulter (Worcester)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester)

Not particularly inspiring…

12. Piers O'Connor
13. Joe Marchant

Boom! Pace, power, good hands, kicking, defence.....what's not to like?

Brophy Clews is getting the game time at LI at 12.

Cokanasiga isn't featuring at the moment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56545040

Can't think if there were any decisions for the captain after Farrell went off so I'm with Itoje here on not knowing who stepped in. Anyone wiser?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:He has the full skill set and now his shoulder is fixed should be able to tackle properly. Having said that the latest interpretation of the tackle laws is not going to suit him, he is taller than most locks.

That other list of centres is almost full of outside centres. Harry at fullback no longer makes a lot of sense. Saints are already in fine shape there but have only Hutchinson as an alternative to Francis at IC. And Harry plays a much better defense.

As Harry plays himself back into game shape, it makes the most sense to play him at 12: it is a position of need for Saints and England. And he is most certainly handsomer than Farrell....

Harry and Ollie Lawrence.
And I really feel for Lawrence. I think he had a bit of a raw deal with England. Deserves to be top of the depth chart for this tour at OC, in my opinion.

And, not for nothing, Paul Freakin Hill. Playing better now than when he had his cup of coffee with England. Killing it at scrum time and runs like a raging rhino. Seriously, not sure who in the Premiership is playing better than him in the front row. If Joe Marler is pulling himself out of international commitments, then who better?

Cumbrian wrote:English qualified centres 25 or under who have been getting game time (or present an interesting case) feel free to add names:

Max Ojomoh (Bath)
Max Wright (Bath)
Piers O’Connor (Bristol)
Corey Baldwin (Exeter)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins)
Guy Porter (Leicester)
Dan Kelly (Leicester)
Phil Cocknasinga (Irish)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton)
Luke James (Sale)
Will Bulter (Worcester)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester)

Not particularly inspiring…

I think if you look at the stats Northmore is tearing it up when he gets a chance, still early for him though and at 12 we have the best 12 in the prem who is unfortunately a SA.

Agree northmore is another to watch. 6 ft 2 and close to 16 Stones and runs hard lines and looks a good understudy to the south African, sorry can't remember his name. I did think Harry mallinder would be the next big thing then he nailed his colours to mast at 15. Piers o conner has to tour but if essies in charge he won't I reckon. I also think young Joe marchant would make a decent ball playing 12, quick feet good tackler and clever footballer too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56545040

What else can they say.

Proof is in the pudding and as the old saying goes you are only as good as your last game!

5th

So you're saying Farrell was an excellent captain last year then tight. What specifically changed this year?

Absolutly shocking!

Itoje said he was unsure who took on captaincy duties when Farrell was forced off with a head knock in the 55th minute of the 32-18 defeat by Ireland on 20 March.

"Erm…Good question," he replied when asked who stood in during Farrell's absence.

"I am not even too sure, if I am going to be honest with you. There was a bit of chatter, but, hand on my heart, I can't give you a definitive answer."


England in 2021 under Eddie Jones everyone!

Need I say more?  

3 weeks for Dunn which is incredibly lenient when you read they thought it was accidental and the player wasn't vulnerable. Which is not evident to me when he's elbowed somebody no where near the ball.

I see Cockasaniga scored on the weekend...and with his off field issues over now, maybe we'll see him getting back in form.

A fully firing Cockasaniga would be a great boost for.england...would you take him on tour?

Cumbrian wrote:English qualified centres 25 or under who have been getting game time (or present an interesting case) feel free to add names:

Max Ojomoh (Bath)
Max Wright (Bath)
Piers O’Connor (Bristol)
Corey Baldwin (Exeter)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins)
Guy Porter (Leicester)
Dan Kelly (Leicester)
Phil Cocknasinga (Irish)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton)
Luke James (Sale)
Will Bulter (Worcester)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester)

Not particularly inspiring…

Dan Kelly has been getting better and better. His last start Vs Falcons saw a couple of big carries and a very good try saving tackle. He's still only 19, 6ft and 15 stone with a little bit of everything to his game including an outside break, solid defence and good hands. This summer is too soon for him but he's getting close to ousting Matt Scott from the Tigers 12 shirt. Only reason for him to tour this summer is that he's also Irish qualified and there's been rumoured links to a move to Ireland when he joined Tigers and before he renewed his contract.

The obvious selection at 12 is Piers O'Conor he's been in great form for a couple of seasons and his flexibility in positioning just makes him a more useful squad member.

I'm sure I've said it before but I wouldn't take anybody who's played in both the ANC and the 6N. I'd leave at home most of I'd not all of the usual suspects. We learn nothing from rolling out the likes of Launchbury, Stuart, Daly, Robson etc. There's no value in it. Use this tour to develop the squad options, create that competition to push players out of their comfort zones as currently too many know they are going to be in the 23. Time to shake it up a bit. If we can also cap a few that are dual qualified so there's no head turning in the next couple of years all the better. You look at some of our best young options Rodd, Heyes, Odogwu, Randall, Piers O'Conor they are all dual qualified even if some of them definitely consider themselves English.

Devoto should be mentioned in the 12 discussion too really, a very underrated player.

Yes Devoto must be in the equation.

I think it will be very telling which squad he eventually selects...assuming the tour goes ahead of course.

Watching Randall at the weekend he looks a bit fragile needs to put on some weight so he doesn't get injured so much. I like him as a AH but worry about him playing at international level.

Hes a player in a position where size shouldn't overly matter. Hes grease lightening but I do like how he gets stuck in. From a position that is or was so depressing during the 6ns theres suddenly hope on the horizon with him and a couple of others.

When thinking about scrum halves, just think Peter Stringer. Maybe 11 stone if he just had some cake. I do get the point about looking a bit fragile, but Alex Mitchell also looks like a gust of wind could knock him over, but I think is somewhere near 13 stone. I think we just need to let them play and see what comes out the other end.

I like Devoto but he's 27 and whilst reliably good I don't think he's going to kick on and be great. I'd be tempted to have him on the summer tour to have another luck and act as one of the leaders in the squad though.

I don't think size matters at 9. Get Randall, Mitchell and Maunder on tour and see what happens. One of them has got to show enough to slot in behind Youngs and start applying pressure and developing. Not really fussed which one.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I like Devoto but he's 27 and whilst reliably good I don't think he's going to kick on and be great.

This is half of our problem in England, we write off a player because they're 27 (!) and instead, always look for the next young gun off the production line.

Devoto is a class act and has played very well in the Prem for a number of years now. Arguably, he should have 10 or so caps by now because he's been hanging around the squad for a while. At 27, you could almost get 2 world cups, he's not too old.

I just wish Eddie would give these problem positions (9,12,15) to the next best candidate and give them a handful of starts to prove themselves. If they don't step up, go back to what you know (Youngs, Farrell and Daly ). If they do look promising then give them more time from the bench....and gee wizz, we've created a viable backup in a problem position!

You cut my comment down and missed out the bit where I said I'd take him on the summer tour. He's reaching the last chance saloon though because whilst he's reliably good you need a bit more to break into the international team. Eddie will be looking at the next world cup, that's the big ain for international coaches. Yes he needs to show up well at the 6N in the interim (and he hasn't) but the big goal is the world cup. If Devoto comes into camp and shows he's grown as a player and that he can add some leadership to the backline (as our current 10/12 are regular captains at their clubs) then he could be in with a chance. The 27 thing is more of an indicator that he isn't going to make a development leap again, he's more than likely at his peak currently.

I like Piers O'Conor, bit of a late bloomer but he's improving each year in the Prem. He's not that much younger than Devoto (he's 25) but his level of development is unknown as his ability hasn't plateaued yet. I hope they get him into camp and have a good look at him.

It was a general accusation rather than directed at that comment Sam. We're all guilty of it....we can't wait for the "next big thing" to come along.

Agree on O'Conor especially, he really needs to be involved asap.

If the Saracens contingent arent getting games in the Champs...which is more than likely, will Eddie take them on tour to give them some matches? As he did in the 6n...

I'm with you on Devoto Sam.

He's a good Prem player capable of the odd decent run of form, but he's never looked a quality international in waiting for me.

May end up being wrong, but I just don't see it

GeordieFalcon wrote:If the Saracens contingent arent getting games in the Champs...which is more than likely, will Eddie take them on tour to give them some matches? As he did in the 6n...

Doubt it there's no benefit to him. They'll be back playing in the Prem before the Autumn Internationals. For the 6N he probably took the view that none of his internationals had played much between the ANC and the 6N so selecting the Sarries guys wouldn't matter. That of course proved a problem but hey ho.

If say the Vunipolas don't tour with the Lions I'd say there is no point sending them on what is really a development tour. A full pre season will be more useful to them. Things were different during the last Lions tour when we played Argentina and it was worth sending a few first team players to mix in. This time round it's Scotland A, Canada and the USA. We don't need some players with lots of caps. We can use playing like Dunn, Beaumont, Devoto(those three are just examples) to add a spine of experience into the team and then experiment from there. Most of the young guys have quite a bit of Prem experience, Heyes a 21 tighthead has more than 60 appearances for Tigers. Obano must have 100 for Bath at least by now. It won't be like we're sending the under 20s.

I'd rather kpokwu goes than Beaumont.

I wonder if Eddie has noticed Callum Chicks form at 8 for us. Hes bulked up considerably after hes been on a weights plan, and since he's returned from injury, his performances have gone up to another level. Aggressive all round back rower...and his carrying has been great.
Hes a far more skilled player than Mark Wilson aswell...

Mark Wilson has the intangible of always looking like a tough-as-nails grizzled veteran.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rather kpokwu goes than Beaumont.

Beaumont covers half of the positions in the pack is a good jumper and can run the lineout as well as liking to carry. Were it not for horrible luck with injuries we might have seen more of his previously. If we take a young pack like I hope we do then having a leader like him in there makes sense. He's also 27 so not over the hill, should be in his prime.

I think I said earlier in the thread I'd want a young team but an experienced spine running through it. Beaumont would help with that in my mind, particularly in the lineout as a Dunn to Beaumont combination should work nicely if we are placed under pressure or just want clean ball to launch first phase attacks from.

Way way too early but Saints have just signed a cousin of Nadolo to their senior academy.

Duane Ratu Willemsen is apparently 6'6'' and 128kg (just love the mixed units) and is apparently England qualified. Grew up in Australia and has been playing in the NRL prior to signing with Saints.

doctor_grey wrote:Mark Wilson has the intangible of always looking like a tough-as-nails grizzled veteran.

He is that...and will be huge for the Falcons still...but i just think there are much more dynamic, faster options now.

Ben Curry for example is worth the place if hes fit.

lostinwales wrote:Way way too early but Saints have just signed a cousin of Nadolo to their senior academy.

Duane Ratu Willemsen is apparently 6'6'' and 128kg (just love the mixed units) and is apparently England qualified. Grew up in Australia and has been playing in the NRL prior to signing with Saints.

How is he English qualified?