If you can't beat them, join them!

Why doesn't England cheat their way to World Cup Glory?

I'm serious, I watch teams getting into the later stages of world cups and I feel gutted that England try and play fair rather than kick, dive, elbow and deceive our way through the group and knockout stages.

Lets be honest would anyone really feel disappointed if we got to a QF/SF or Final by conning an under experienced Fifa Ref?

I wouldn't, maybe its time we changed our approach of trying to bore the opposition to death and cheat, like the rest of them.

We're far too honest, IF the federations are refusing to do anything to stop diving and that such then yes we have to start playing that way too (I think we do, just not as good as others)

England don't win World Cups or Euro's simply because they don't cheat as much as other teams are perceived to. We simply "forget" about England's cheating, but they certainly do cheat.
England aren't "too honest", they simply aren't good enough.

We already do it, Welbeck, Rooney, Sturridge, Sterling, Gerrard, Johnson, are all players who have been moaned at for diving this season. Difference is teams like Holland also have the ability to play football, we...well we just don't.

I don't think we do.

When was the last time an England player tried to get someone sent off by rolling around on the floor play-acting?

I remember how embarrassing Portugal were against England in 2006; I would rather lose every single time than play like they did. Utterly shameful.

But let me be clear - I'm not saying England are whiter than white, but they do behave with a great deal more honesty and integrity than a lot of teams. A chief example would be when Godin should have been sent off...any other team would have surrounded and intimidated the referee. England didn't do that, and well done to them.

I hope it lasts. I don't want England sinking to the depths of Uruguay and Portugal in attempts to win.

If you look at the Godin incident, I'm pretty sure Uruquay would have pushed big style for a second yellow had the boot been on the other foot. We barely did anything and to be fair it was a nailed on yellow.

Sturridge was diving around a little? Owen did, Gerrard did/does,

Nah.

I'd rather we cheated and get somewhere in these competitions, think of all the pubs that have lost trade as we tried to play by the rules.

Scrumpy wrote:Nah.

I'd rather we cheated and get somewhere in these competitions, think of all the pubs that have lost trade as we tried to play by the rules.

But think of all the A&E departments that won't be over-run with drunken knobs getting in the way of genuinely sick people

DAVE667 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Nah.

I'd rather we cheated and get somewhere in these competitions, think of all the pubs that have lost trade as we tried to play by the rules.

But think of all the A&E departments that won't be over-run with drunken knobs getting in the way of genuinely sick people

Thank god hardly any of the eastern European teams got to the world cup then!

There is a CHASM between England and the teams that challenge, a dive here or there would contribute very little. They are miles away from being contenders.

super_realist wrote:There is a CHASM between England and the teams that challenge, a dive here or there would contribute very little. They are miles away from being contenders.

Not if it wins you a penalty or the opposition are reduced to 10 men.

I just think England is too honest, and it goes against us in major tournaments.
Let’s not forget that most of the Refs are shocking at this level, easy pickings.

A dive here or there and we could be in the quarter finals right now, a small action can make a huge difference, had we been more vocal after the Godin foul who knows.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A dive here or there and we could be in the quarter finals right now

I wouldn't go that far.......

I'd pinpoint Sturridge's miserable finishing throughout the group games, as more of a reason behind why we aren't in the tournament still.

John wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A dive here or there and we could be in the quarter finals right now

I wouldn't go that far.......

I'd pinpoint Sturridge's miserable finishing throughout the group games, as more of a reason behind why we aren't in the tournament still.

But he would have had more space and time if the other team were down a player!   

Scrumpy wrote:

John wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A dive here or there and we could be in the quarter finals right now

I wouldn't go that far.......

I'd pinpoint Sturridge's miserable finishing throughout the group games, as more of a reason behind why we aren't in the tournament still.

But he would have had more space and time if the other team were down a player!   

Why, do you not think team that loses a defender would replace him with another player able to adequately fill that role? Had Godin been sent off it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to our ability to carve out an opportunity. How many challenges did Godin make subsequently that couldn't possibly have been made by another player?

Against Italy, we were very good, against Uruguay we were abject...that can't be Godin's doing can it?

You need to pick Ashley Young in future then.

If your auntie had balls she'd be your uncle.
I really wish England fans would stop this deluded fantasy that they should and could be contesting tournaments. They are dreadful, and you could say the same for plenty other teams that a load of fictitious circumstances might change things, but I doubt they are kidding themselves.
England are out, and deservedly so.

The Special Juan wrote:You need to pick Ashley Young in future then.

However bad English football gets, there's no need to be silly

DAVE667 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

John wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A dive here or there and we could be in the quarter finals right now

I wouldn't go that far.......

I'd pinpoint Sturridge's miserable finishing throughout the group games, as more of a reason behind why we aren't in the tournament still.

But he would have had more space and time if the other team were down a player!   

Why, do you not think team that loses a defender would replace him with another player able to adequately fill that role? Had Godin been sent off it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to our ability to carve out an opportunity. How many challenges did Godin make subsequently that couldn't possibly have been made by another player?

Against Italy, we were very good, against Uruguay we were abject...that can't be Godin's doing can it?

Its not like we didn't make chances in that game, I think its fair enough to suggest we would have made more playing against 10 men whilst at the same time Uruguay would also have been limited in other parts of the pitch and it would have been tougher for them to apply pressure.

If Aaron Lennon is good enough to be a regular England international then you aren't good enough to win the world cup or the Euros. England are just not that good. It has nothing to do with diving or cheating etc. England at best is 5th or 6th favorite in Europe to win the championship. One shouldn't be surprised then that they have never lifted that prestigious trophy. Germany, Holland, Spain, Italy, and France all have superior pedigree. And Belgium is better than they are right now as well. So if England wins a world cup or Euro it is a massive surprise and upset. Despite the ravings of the English media who seem to have a permanent erection like a man who swallowed a bottle of Cialis and the ridiculous expectations of their fans; England is at best a second tier international team. Maybe third tier.

Aaron Lennon? This will be the Aaron Lennon that has 21 caps since 2006, hardly a regular.

I fully take the argument that England are not good enough. The debate is whether their chances would be improved if they were a tad more histrionic when it comes to getting players carded and other underhand tactics.
I think it would help, the Godin example is a stand out illustration and I'd be all for it. Get nasty.

hampo171 wrote:Aaron Lennon? This will be the Aaron Lennon that has 21 caps since 2006, hardly a regular.

That is 21 caps more than he would have if he was born German or Spanish. He really fcuking stinks and the fact that he has 21 caps for England is literally a disgrace.

England, are not, and have not been adverse to a bit of cheating of their own. They aren't the snooker player/golfer calling penalties on themselves or admitting/pulling out of a dive/dodgy tackle.

England's problem is that the players aren't good enough as a team, and they can't adapt to tournament football.

You're just clutching at straws. England aren't good enough and thats pretty much all there is to it. We looked fairly promising against Italy and I had a little hope we could push on from that game but we were poor against Uruguay and I didn't even bother to watch the Costa Rica match. I prefer the World Cup without England in it anyway, I can relax and enjoy it more.

Like the 28 caps that the distinctly average Senna has for Spain or the 52 that Hitzlsperger has for Germany.

socal1976 wrote:

hampo171 wrote:Aaron Lennon? This will be the Aaron Lennon that has 21 caps since 2006, hardly a regular.

That is 21 caps more than he would have if he was born German or Spanish. He really fcuking stinks and the fact that he has 21 caps for England is literally a disgrace.

Still doesn't make him a regular though does it, it means that at certain points he was showing good form and we felt the need to play wingers, he was picked because he is quick. If you went through Germany and Spain you'd probably find some players just as poor as Lennon who have a good number of caps.

England are in the same envelope as Croatia, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, Greece etc, but I doubt the people of those countries are complaining that a dive here or a sneaky handball there would catapult them into Tournament challengers.

There are a group of teams who can win tournaments, England are nowhere near it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Like the 28 caps that the distinctly average Senna has for Spain or the 52 that Hitzlsperger has for Germany.

I would take Senna and Hitzlsperger over Aaron lennon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lennon can't pass, can't shoot, and can't tackle. I don't think the same can be said of the other two player mentioned. Oh but he is pretty fast.

Diggers wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

John wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A dive here or there and we could be in the quarter finals right now

I wouldn't go that far.......

I'd pinpoint Sturridge's miserable finishing throughout the group games, as more of a reason behind why we aren't in the tournament still.

But he would have had more space and time if the other team were down a player!   

Why, do you not think team that loses a defender would replace him with another player able to adequately fill that role? Had Godin been sent off it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to our ability to carve out an opportunity. How many challenges did Godin make subsequently that couldn't possibly have been made by another player?

Against Italy, we were very good, against Uruguay we were abject...that can't be Godin's doing can it?

Its not like we didn't make chances in that game, I think its fair enough to suggest we would have made more playing against 10 men whilst at the same time Uruguay would also have been limited in other parts of the pitch and it would have been tougher for them to apply pressure.

Come on, we committed more fouls that created goal scoring opportunities.

socal1976 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Like the 28 caps that the distinctly average Senna has for Spain or the 52 that Hitzlsperger has for Germany.

I would take Senna and Hitzlsperger over Aaron lennon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lennon can't pass, can't shoot, and can't tackle. I don't think the same can be said of the other two player mentioned. Oh but he is pretty fast.

Senna could tackle fairly well but that was about it while Hitzlsperger was just pretty crap all round hence why he couldn't cement a place in any of the English teams he played for.

socal1976 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Like the 28 caps that the distinctly average Senna has for Spain or the 52 that Hitzlsperger has for Germany.

I would take Senna and Hitzlsperger over Aaron lennon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lennon can't pass, can't shoot, and can't tackle. I don't think the same can be said of the other two player mentioned. Oh but he is pretty fast.

In that case he should be selected as someone states that the slightest touch on these fast players is enough to make them tumble like Donald Campbell. We could win every game 300-0

super_realist wrote:England are in the same envelope as Croatia, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, Greece etc, but I doubt the people of those countries are complaining that a dive here or a sneaky handball there would catapult them into Tournament challengers.

There are a group of teams who can win tournaments, England are nowhere near it.

Whilst I agree with pretty much everything you've said there, I do believe that the only reason you comment so much about it really is jealousy that as rubbish as England are, Scotland are miles away from being that good!

DAVE667 wrote:

Diggers wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

John wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A dive here or there and we could be in the quarter finals right now

I wouldn't go that far.......

I'd pinpoint Sturridge's miserable finishing throughout the group games, as more of a reason behind why we aren't in the tournament still.

But he would have had more space and time if the other team were down a player!   

Why, do you not think team that loses a defender would replace him with another player able to adequately fill that role? Had Godin been sent off it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to our ability to carve out an opportunity. How many challenges did Godin make subsequently that couldn't possibly have been made by another player?

Against Italy, we were very good, against Uruguay we were abject...that can't be Godin's doing can it?

Its not like we didn't make chances in that game, I think its fair enough to suggest we would have made more playing against 10 men whilst at the same time Uruguay would also have been limited in other parts of the pitch and it would have been tougher for them to apply pressure.

Come on, we committed more fouls that created goal scoring opportunities.

Id say that's true of pretty much every side in any game any day of the week. Id rather play against 10 men than 11, especially from so early in a game, I doubt many players or managers would argue about that.

This article was written prior to the second round starting. Interesting that teams like Holland and Portugal were more 'honest' than England.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-world-rankings-of-flopping-1403660175

I think some of you are forgetting that the Refs are awful in the world cup, if you have fast players running at defenders and the fast player dives then you are more than likely get the decision.

I'm not saying England would win a world cup, but we could get some key decisions that would change the course of the game if we were to cheat.

Everyone else does it, so why doesn't England?

Doesn't really tell you anything about diving that link though.

MIG wrote:

super_realist wrote:England are in the same envelope as Croatia, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, Greece etc, but I doubt the people of those countries are complaining that a dive here or a sneaky handball there would catapult them into Tournament challengers.

There are a group of teams who can win tournaments, England are nowhere near it.

Whilst I agree with pretty much everything you've said there, I do believe that the only reason you comment so much about it really is jealousy that as rubbish as England are, Scotland are miles away from being that good!

MIG, if you knew anything about my previous posts you'd know that I'm very much an Anglophile and completely indifferent to Scotland as a country and as a sporting entity, in fact I don't even consider myself to be Scottish, even though by an accident of birth, I technically am, however, saying that on a per capita basis Scotland are performing better than England lately.

England, are by definition a team that generally qualifies, but is not much more than makeweight in tournaments, to expect much more than what they generally achieve at each tournament is simply naive.

I think England could certainly learn from the likes of Barcelona who've mastered the art of intelligent fouling. The cynical early foul in the opposition half that stops a breakaway, the trailing of the second foot when going into the box to draw a penalty etc.

super_realist wrote:

MIG wrote:

super_realist wrote:England are in the same envelope as Croatia, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, Greece etc, but I doubt the people of those countries are complaining that a dive here or a sneaky handball there would catapult them into Tournament challengers.

There are a group of teams who can win tournaments, England are nowhere near it.

Whilst I agree with pretty much everything you've said there, I do believe that the only reason you comment so much about it really is jealousy that as rubbish as England are, Scotland are miles away from being that good!

MIG, if you knew anything about my previous posts you'd know that I'm very much an Anglophile and completely indifferent to Scotland as a country and as a sporting entity, in fact I don't even consider myself to be Scottish, even though by an accident of birth, I technically am, however, saying that on a per capita basis Scotland are performing better than England lately.

England, are by definition a team that generally qualifies, but is not much more than makeweight in tournaments, to expect much more than what they generally achieve at each tournament is simply naive.

If I was to compare England to a Premier League side it would be Spurs. Both have had some great individuals over the years, but have rarely gelled as a team to justify the expectations of a lot of their fan bases.

super_realist wrote:

MIG wrote:

super_realist wrote:England are in the same envelope as Croatia, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, Greece etc, but I doubt the people of those countries are complaining that a dive here or a sneaky handball there would catapult them into Tournament challengers.

There are a group of teams who can win tournaments, England are nowhere near it.

Whilst I agree with pretty much everything you've said there, I do believe that the only reason you comment so much about it really is jealousy that as rubbish as England are, Scotland are miles away from being that good!

MIG, if you knew anything about my previous posts you'd know that I'm very much an Anglophile and completely indifferent to Scotland as a country and as a sporting entity, in fact I don't even consider myself to be Scottish, even though by an accident of birth, I technically am, however, saying that on a per capita basis Scotland are performing better than England lately.

England, are by definition a team that generally qualifies, but is not much more than makeweight in tournaments, to expect much more than what they generally achieve at each tournament is simply naive.

Ok thats fair enough I take it back.
I do agree with what you say about England though, before the tournament I thought the goal should be making it to the 2nd round. Quarter finals would be a bonus, group stage would be a dissapointment. I think thats fairly realistic for most teams that are in a major tournament but not one of the favourites.

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:I think England could certainly learn from the likes of Barcelona who've mastered the art of intelligent fouling. The cynical early foul in the opposition half that stops a breakaway, the trailing of the second foot when going into the box to draw a penalty etc.

And football dies another death with that phrase

Indeed, I think the expectation some people have of England reaching QF's and Semi's is like hoping Tommy Haas will do the same in A Tennis Grand Slam, might happen occasionally, given favourable draws and a bit of "luck" but not something which is likely.

It's good that most appreciate England are a second tier nation, perhaps lower, but the Tyldsley like hype that comes around ("this is the team England might have played if they'd come second, etc etc) is completely nauseating. Why are people so unrealistic?

DAVE667 wrote:

Kurt N. Jurqa wrote:I think England could certainly learn from the likes of Barcelona who've mastered the art of intelligent fouling. The cynical early foul in the opposition half that stops a breakaway, the trailing of the second foot when going into the box to draw a penalty etc.

And football dies another death with that phrase

I reckon it's quite snappy that, 'The Art of Intelligent Fouling' by J.R. Hartley.

I think people just get carried away through patriotism and like you say naivety. I used to love watching England growing up in the 80's and 90's but since then they've taught me a harsh lesson to not be so optimistic anymore. I don't even enjoy watching them. Haven't done since Euro 96 probably.

The hilarious thing is that all the adverts featuring England players, are still being played as if A) England are still in the tournament B) They are contenders.
Do these companies never learn their lesson? Why do they constantly associate themselves with losers.

Sturridges "acting" in his Subway advert is particularly amusing. Woodier than Sherwood Forest.

Are people seriously suggesting that England should cheat more?

Firstly England do already cheat and secondly cheating more won't make the slightest difference to our chances.

super_realist wrote:The hilarious thing is that all the adverts featuring England players, are still being played as if A) England are still in the tournament B) They are contenders.
Do these companies never learn their lesson? Why do they constantly associate themselves with losers.

Sturridges "acting" in his Subway advert is particularly amusing. Woodier than Sherwood Forest.

If his acting is that poor, he's unlikely to convince anyone he's been fouled.