Aviva Premiership 2014/15 Preview

by **Ozzy3213** Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Here's my take on how this seasons runners and riders will fare in the Aviva Premiership.

Bath Rugby

After narrowly missing out on the play offs last season and also imploding in the Amlin Cup Final, Bath will be desperate to make the play offs this time around. Sam Burgess is the big name signing, but questions remain about his transition from league, and what position he is likely to occupy, and until we actually see him on the pitch he will remain an unknown quantity. What we do know that Bath have is a huge set of forwards, and a pacy, clever set of backs. What they need to do is get them working as a cohesive unit, something which at times last season they failed to do. If they get it right, they will be very tough to beat, but as we've seen in both the distant and recent past with Bath, the wheel can come of in spectacular fashion, leaving their fans dissappointed and the trophy cabinet bare.

One to watch: Anthony Watson
Prediction: 3rd (will win the semi final, but lose in the big one at Twickenham)

Exeter Chiefs

The Chiefs will feel that they underachieved last season, based on the standard that they set themselves the season before. What has to be remembered is that in reality they are still a very new Premiership outfit and will have ups and downs. Recruitment this summer has been fairly low key, and I do worry with them that they may need a bit of an injection of fresh ideas to go with the great culture that Rob Baxter has built at the club, if they are going to kick on again, and I can see this season being fairly tough for them, although they should be too good to really get dragged into any dogfight at the wrong end of the table.

One to watch: Luke Cowan-Dickie
Prediction: 10th

Gloucester

After what was a sorry season last year there is a new Director of Rugby in place, as well as some big name signings as the club seek to return to the top half of the table this time around. They will need a massive on field improvement as some of last seasons performances were absolutely dire, especially in the scrum where they took regular hammerings. This has been addressed with the arrival of Richard Hibbard and John Afoa to bolster the front row, and you have to believe that those guys will bring about an improvement in fortune in that regard. If their pack can step up, they have some exciting backs, which include new signing James Hook, and they could be a real test for any team this time around.

One to watch: Elliott Stooke
Prediction: 6th

Harlequins

After a dodgy start last year Quins did just enough to make the play offs, but were very much second best in their semi final against Saracens. They have added Marland Yarde to their back line this time around, and have some very talented youngsters coming through the ranks. Strangely they still don't seem to have adequately replaced Ollie Kohn in the second row, and will have to rely on the mobility oftheir pack rather than getting into real scraps, as they appear slightly underpowered up front. They will be a fascinating watch, as they play an entertaining brand of rugby, but I just don't see them having quite enough forward power to drag themselves into the play offs this time around.

One to watch: Luke Wallace
Prediction: 5th

Leicester Tigers

Tigers will be smarting after missing out on a place in the final last year after that epic semi against fierce rivals Northampton Saints. They have recruited well, and look to be stronger this season. They will of course be one of the better packs, as although not always the biggest, they are generally the smartest and seem to find a way of negating their opponents strength. What will be the test for them is whether they can get their back line really playing. The key man for them may actually be Geordan Murphy, and if he can get the talent they have from 9 to 15 working in harmony then they will be a real force this season.

One to watch: Freddie Burns
Prediction: 1st (Champions after winning the play offs)

London Irish

New training facilities, a strengthening of the backroom staff and some additions in the pack should see an improved level of performance from Irish this season. Losing Yarde and O'Connor potentially weakens the back line, but with a better platform from the forwards should give the guys who are there a chance to shine. With a tough start on paper Irish will need to hit the ground running and pick up some points against the big guns if they are to avoid being in a 3rd successive relegation scrap. Having said that, the best performances from Irish last year were against Tigers, Sarries, Saints and Quins, so they should take some confidence from that and a good start could see them surprise one or two people this time around.

One to watch: Gerard Ellis
Prediction: 8th

London Welsh

Welsh did fantastically well to gain promotion by beating Bristol, and have gone out since on a huge recruitment drive. The likes of Piri Weepu, Dean Schofield and Olly Barkley will bring lots of experience, but there has to be question marks over how quickly you can integrate 25 new signings into a cohesive unit. They will need to invoke the same sort of team ethos that Exeter had when they came up if they are to make a better fist of things this time. Ultimately I think they will be a better side than when they were promoted last, but I don't think they'll have enough to stay up this time either.

One to watch: Olly Barkley
Prediction: 12th (Relegated)

Newcastle Falcons

Much is being made of the new 4G pitch at Kingston Park and the potential for a change in style from Falcons, but unless they sign a new 10 who plays a more expansive game, that could all be just a dream for their fans. They will of course be well organised, as any team coached by Dean Richards is, and have bolstered their squad with some shrewd signings, but they lack the quality of some of the other squads, although they have plenty of players with what appears to be huge potential. This, I think will be another season of just scraping through and more quality will need to be brought in next summer if they are to kick on and start climbing the table.

One to watch: Alessana Tuilagi
Prediction: 11th

Northampton Saints

The Champions have been pretty quiet in terms of signings this summer, but have a strong squad already and haven't lost anyone either. They also have some talented youngsters coming through and will be there or thereabouts come the end of the season. Much will again rest on Stephen Myler putting their powerful pack in the right areas, where the likes of North and Foden will surely finish the chances they create. Whilst I 'm not sure they have the depth to fight successfully in the Premiership and the Champions Cup, I think they will want to retain their title, and will reach the play offs comfortably.

One to watch: Alex Waller
Prediction: 2nd (Losing semi finalists)

Sale Sharks

Sale were the surprise package last season, but there have been a few guys who were pretty key to that who have left over the summer. They have made some decent signings, and I can see Nathan Hines having a big influence there. It is unlikely that Steve Diamond is going to change the formula which served them so well last year, and they will be a pack that is niggly and difficult to play against, with the backs only really coming in to things when they get anywhere near to the try line. I can see another season of being comfortably mid table for Sale.

One to watch: Danny Cipriani
Prediction: 7th

Saracens

Sarries will be smarting after losing 2 finals last season, and will be desperate for success this time around. They have a big squad, and plenty of quality throughout it, but I wonder who much going into battle without their leader Steve Borthwick will affect them. They also need to continue to evolve their style of play, which they have been doing over the past 18 months, in order to keep teams from working them out. They will undoubtedly be at the top end of the table, but I can see their European obsession impacting a little more on their Premiership aspirations this time around and I don't think a home semi final is a given this time around.

One to watch: Will Fraser
Prediction: 4th (Losing semi finalists)

Wasps

It was a bit of a hit and miss season last time around for Wasps, and you were never quite sure which Wasps side would turn up. They have some undoubted quality in their squad, but at times just don't look like a team with much of a plan. They seem to be heavily reliant on individual bits of brilliance to win games rather than a collective effort and this in turn means they are inconsistent. If they want to improve on last seasons league placing they will need to find this consistency, but I'm not sure that they will, ad can see another mid table finish this time around, but in a slightly lower position than last year.

One to watch: Christian Wade
Prediction: 9th

by yappysnap Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:02 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:I'm assuming there'll be little change next year:

1. Sarries
2. Tigers
Saints
Bath
Quins
Sale
Glos
Irish
Wasps
Exeter
Welsh
Falcons

Sarries and Tigers with the big squads to take control at the top of the table, Bath and Saints with huge packs to do enough to stay clues behind and the Quins, Sale and Glos using innovation and fair weather rugby to get in close.

So you think we'll be behind LW this season? Be interesting to see.

Sorry Geordie, you boys were just terrible last season and the season before Welsh did pretty well before the points docking. Just think they'll get enough bp's to beat you in the long run.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:04 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:so Bath Quins and Sarries have exactly the same amount of players at their disposal, so can we stop the my squads smaller than yours rubbish

Stop being so fecking defensive. Sarries have a depth of quality to their squad that others can only be envious of. If we count only players of a good standard, Sarries squad is probably the biggest. That is a good thing and why i believe they will top the table again.

Please also note that every side reports their squads differently. 48 players featured in the AP for Sarries last season - compared to 41 for saints and Quins.

by Knackeredknees Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:29 pm

not being defensive about sarries on this, everyone is guilty of it, helps explain why near the end of the season you can blame squad size for a shock defeat or poor season. I also agree i would prefer 30 outstanding players to 60 crap ones. How sides manage them though, if you only use 75% of your squad and then blame player fatigue, its you own fault not the team that used all their squad to ensure some got rest/gametime.

Using squad size is just a poor excuse(wont mention the other thing....sounds like hat!)

by yappysnap Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:35 pm

by Geordie Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:37 pm

Well we shall wait and see Yappy. I'm quietly confident about this season we've recruited shrewdly.....we'll surprise a few teams....

by yappysnap Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:47 pm

Isn't that what you thought last season...

by Welly Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:53 pm

Actually Leicester Squad is 46 (it doesn't have Price on it for some reason).

Out of those 46, 5 were moved up from the academy.

Last year we had 43 players in the senior squad but none of them were from the academy the year before.

The development squad went from 14 to 9 this season.

by Jimpy Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:38 am

yappysnap wrote:Isn't that what you thought last season...

Can't really see Falcons finishing last, with London Welsh in the mix. but it might be close.

by beshocked Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:11 am

Londontiger you are right. Saracens do probably have the best strength in depth squad wise but it doesn't mean that they'll win. Saracens last season were in two finals and were one of the higher contributors to England which pushes any team's squad depth. Northampton suffered from a similar thing in 2010-11.

I would argue that Saracens poorly managed the workload of certain players and I felt it cost them. I know things that Saracens could have done in the Toulon and Saints matches but they did not. The coaches must be blamed.

Toulon's depth and salary cap puts Saracens to shame anyway.

I agree with knackeredknees though - certain sides do like to blame injuries for a poor season. Every side has injuries - it can work for and against you - it's how you react to them.

To be honest I would say it's very close to call who would win the playoff final. Saracens and Leicester in particular have very tough HC pools so they could be out of that competition quickly which would make it easier to focus on the AP. Saints in comparison probably have the easiest - this could push their strength in depth in a way it wasn't last season.

by Geordie Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:17 am

yappysnap wrote:Isn't that what you thought last season...

Perhaps yes i was guilty of underestimating the gap in standards of Championship and Prem....or that we would play the tactics we did.

by beshocked Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:24 am

Geordiefalcon how do you see your new pitch affecting things? Will we see Newcastle have a more attacking gameplan?

by Geordie Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:35 am

It will be interesting to see Beshocked. Personally i do think it will help us...though a few falcons fans are hesitant to say how they feel.

Dean and John Wells have come out and said we will be playing a more attacking tactic this season so it may be that the pitch will help us a little.

But a new pitch is irrelevant if we continue with the same tactics as last season...it wasnt pretty to watch.

by Jimpy Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:52 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:It will be interesting to see Beshocked. Personally i do think it will help us...though a few falcons fans are hesitant to say how they feel.

Dean and John Wells have come out and said we will be playing a more attacking tactic this season so it may be that the pitch will help us a little.

But a new pitch is irrelevant if we continue with the same tactics as last season...it wasnt pretty to watch.

And you say Falcons have recruited shrewdly - perhaps they have, but recruiting and actually integrating those players into the team so that a cohesive unit is formed are different things. The tactics were all wrong last season, and Dean reckons he's not going to make the same mistake twice, but this requires a sea change in doctrine, I can't see the team adapting quickly enough to save them form a relegation fight in Feb - April.

by Geordie Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:02 am

Well thats the general opinon of us JImpy that we will be bottom or just scrap out of it again.

We have a few pre season games and ill be able to give more of an idea of our style after watching those, but ive always had faith in Dean...he sets targets for each year and has achieved them so far.

We have a new attack coach - Dave Walder and indeed i have been complmentary about our signings who i think can take us forward.

For all we were bad last season we did actually create chances and one of our biggest problems was taking them. Being clinical. We left alot of points on the pitch....so thats one area us Falcon fans hope we will improve.

by Geordie Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:44 am

At the other end however...i think BAth are a curious one. They'll not win it...but if they actually get things working well...they have some potentially cracking players aswell as monsters and could have a big say in the title.

by HongKongCherry Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:24 pm

Wasps are going to be an interesting team to watch this year. They largely went under the radar last season, yet finished 7th. Being involved in the top tier European competition may hinder them (we need another moniker like the Jeff for this competition), they have recruited very shrewdly. I could quite easily see them causing a lot of sides problems.

At the other end of the scale I do feel Exeter could struggle. They've had another season with a lack of new recruits and whilst they are bringing through their youngsters, there is no substitute for experience. Fortunately for them, the Sandy Park factor should see them pick up enough wins.

On the Newcastle front, Geordie you say Richards and Wells have stated they will play a more attacking style, but given they a known for a rugged, forward bias game, do you feel they are capable of changing the style accordingly?

by Geordie Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:58 pm

Yeah i do actually, oh and we have recruited some big ol forwards aswell.

We played Bayonne on Thursday and it was already evident that we opened the ball up alot more and that was without most of the new signings.

Lets be clear...we wont play like Fiji, it'll still be a big forward pack doing the work, but hopefully we'll use the ball a little better.

Dont forget that Dean planted the seeds at Quins aswell before....well you know what. O'Shea has obviously developed it...but Dean got it going.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:13 pm

The question I ask myself regarding Falcons, is are the improvements they are making in the right areas? Last year their strength was in the pack, but the half backs were woeful and the backs lacked any invention or spark. Do the signings that have been made address those issues? I'm not sure that the half back situation has been fixed, and if it hasn't then Falcons will still struggle to beat teams.

by HongKongCherry Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:25 pm

As Glaws found out last season, there was a sincere lack of FHs on the market last season and it was only the fortuitous relegation of Perpignan that has saved us (hopefully!). Nevertheless, Falcons didn't ever seem to be looking for a FH and I very much agree with Ozzy that this was the key area that needed to be addressed. The performances I saw of Godman last year were woeful and letting hodgson go seems a strange move. Having said that, Welsh have to be firm favourites to go back down, so a few wins at home in gale force winds should be enough to do the trick and half backs can be prioritised for next year.

by Geordie Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:54 pm

That is definately the one area of concern with all the falcon fans.

Godawful didnt look a championship player let alone a prem one and Clegg struggled.

However it seems they are trusted and rumours are that Socino will occupy the 10 spot quite a bit aswell which is a puzzle as we see him as a 12 who can cover 10 if really needed...not a starting preimership 10.

So if the wheels are to come off...then yes it will be due to that area.

Edit: WE also have another young 10 coming through who is much bigger than Joel Hodgson...maybe the hope is that he will come good.

by Geordie Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:12 pm

On a side note...it will be very interesting to see how Joel Hodgson goes at 9 for saints. Will he get much gametime?

He's a cracking player perfectly suited for 9 and maybe surprise a few.

by rosbif Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:16 pm

You guys are all underestimating the Chiefs, they have recruited 8 new players an interesting South African ,Bortha playing in the backs, expansion of the stadium and 4 players with regular Jeff experience with U20 WC medals + excellent academy centres hoovering up all the talent in Devon and Cornwall. Unbeaten pre season winning away to Ulster........... a place in the top 6 no problem at the expense of Bath me thinks.

by Jimpy Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:57 am

rosbif wrote:You guys are all underestimating the Chiefs, they have recruited 8 new players an interesting South African ,Bortha playing in the backs, expansion of the stadium and 4 players with regular Jeff experience with U20 WC medals + excellent academy centres hoovering up all the talent in Devon and Cornwall. Unbeaten pre season winning away to Ulster........... a place in the top 6 no problem at the expense of Bath me thinks.

Now that would be sweet......

by Geordie Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:22 am

Well after the pre-season my enthusiasm has been blown out the water. Relelgation is a definate risk i think.

by beshocked Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:52 am

rosbif wrote:You guys are all underestimating the Chiefs, they have recruited 8 new players an interesting South African ,Bortha playing in the backs, expansion of the stadium and 4 players with regular Jeff experience with U20 WC medals + excellent academy centres hoovering up all the talent in Devon and Cornwall. Unbeaten pre season winning away to Ulster........... a place in the top 6 no problem at the expense of Bath me thinks.

Exeter could surprise us all again like they did in their first season but their youngsters will need to come of age.

It just doesn't look like a side with enough firepower throughout the team. I am sure they'll have a competitive pack as usual but the backline doesn't compare favourably with other AP competitors.

by Poorfour Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:41 am

I'm expecting this season to be the closest yet. There are a lot of strong squads out there. I think it's going to come down to how well the respective DoRs can manage their squads over the whole of the season.

Consistency is going to be key. Being able to win against the weaker teams home and away, picking up bonus points, coping with the international windows and having key players available for the big games and fresh for the end of the season. I doubt Tigers will be able to get away with their usual late season charge or Quins will be able to repeat their rise from the dead - certainly not if they want to be competitive in the semi-finals.

In that respect, I'd expect Saints to have an advantage over most of the other sides - they have a relatively settled squad with Corbs returning and a proven gameplan when most of the competition either have a lot of change to incorporate or known points of weakness.

by Geordie Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:54 am

Much has been said of Corbs return...but theres a quite sizeable shape in the form of young Waller who was really excellent for them last season.

Corbs is top class but he has to prove himself...especially consistency and staying injury free, certainly when you consider we have Marler, Mako Vunipola for country and Waller challenging at both club and country level.

by beshocked Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:56 am

Poorfour it's always like that. European rugby will have a factor too as it stretches the resources of a team.

It's no coincidence that teams who win the AP are generally less tired than their rivals:

2010-11 - Saracens went out early of the HC - won the AP
2011-12 - Quins-one of the least affected RWC teams, out of the HC in pool stages.
2012-13 - Leicester out in quarter finals - won the AP.
2013-14 Saints - out of the HC in pool stages - won the AP.

As Saints found out in 2010-11 and Saracens last season - trying to fight on two fronts is very tough and stretches a squad to breaking point.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:06 am

beshocked wrote:
rosbif wrote:You guys are all underestimating the Chiefs, they have recruited 8 new players an interesting South African ,Bortha playing in the backs, expansion of the stadium and 4 players with regular Jeff experience with U20 WC medals + excellent academy centres hoovering up all the talent in Devon and Cornwall. Unbeaten pre season winning away to Ulster........... a place in the top 6 no problem at the expense of Bath me thinks.

Exeter could surprise us all again like they did in their first season but their youngsters will need to come of age.

It just doesn't look like a side with enough firepower throughout the team. I am sure they'll have a competitive pack as usual but the backline doesn't compare favourably with other AP competitors.

beshocked nails that one nicely, I can only agree with him - the Ulster win was largely against their 2nd XV, and we are going to be missing key players again for the first run of games of the season - captain Dean Mumm, backline creator Phil Dollman, Jack Nowell, Dave Lewis and probably Will Chudley at scrum half, LC-D, etc. And when Thomas 'the Tank' Waldrom is listed as one of your star signings, I think any team's supporter would deserve the right to be a little worried! Bottom half of the table is a realistic prediction (altho I'd be more than happy to be astounded!)

Chief

by Jimpy Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:10 am

beshocked wrote:
rosbif wrote:You guys are all underestimating the Chiefs, they have recruited 8 new players an interesting South African ,Bortha playing in the backs, expansion of the stadium and 4 players with regular Jeff experience with U20 WC medals + excellent academy centres hoovering up all the talent in Devon and Cornwall. Unbeaten pre season winning away to Ulster........... a place in the top 6 no problem at the expense of Bath me thinks.

Exeter could surprise us all again like they did in their first season but their youngsters will need to come of age.

It just doesn't look like a side with enough firepower throughout the team. I am sure they'll have a competitive pack as usual but the backline doesn't compare favourably with other AP competitors.

Absolutely correct - I think most people have been realistic about their chances, not pessimistic.

by Jimpy Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:12 am

Poorfour wrote:I'm expecting this season to be the closest yet. There are a lot of strong squads out there. I think it's going to come down to how well the respective DoRs can manage their squads over the whole of the season.

Consistency is going to be key. Being able to win against the weaker teams home and away, picking up bonus points, coping with the international windows and having key players available for the big games and fresh for the end of the season. I doubt Tigers will be able to get away with their usual late season charge or Quins will be able to repeat their rise from the dead - certainly not if they want to be competitive in the semi-finals.

In that respect, I'd expect Saints to have an advantage over most of the other sides - they have a relatively settled squad with Corbs returning and a proven gameplan when most of the competition either have a lot of change to incorporate or known points of weakness.

Jim Mallinder has already said that the European Cup is his priority and that this may be at the expense of the AP.

by beshocked Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:25 am

Jimpy wrote:
Poorfour wrote:I'm expecting this season to be the closest yet. There are a lot of strong squads out there. I think it's going to come down to how well the respective DoRs can manage their squads over the whole of the season.

Consistency is going to be key. Being able to win against the weaker teams home and away, picking up bonus points, coping with the international windows and having key players available for the big games and fresh for the end of the season. I doubt Tigers will be able to get away with their usual late season charge or Quins will be able to repeat their rise from the dead - certainly not if they want to be competitive in the semi-finals.

In that respect, I'd expect Saints to have an advantage over most of the other sides - they have a relatively settled squad with Corbs returning and a proven gameplan when most of the competition either have a lot of change to incorporate or known points of weakness.

Jim Mallinder has already said that the European Cup is his priority and that this may be at the expense of the AP.

With the European cup group that Saints have I can't say I blame him!

Alasbut100ofus glad you agree. As I said your one hope is that your youngsters come of age. You've got a good academy.

Breakdown of Directors of Rugby

5 English - Sale,Newcastle,Leicester,Exeter,Saints
3 Irish - Saracens,Quins,Gloucester
2 Welsh - Wasps,London Welsh
1 Aussie - London Irish
1 South African - Bath

by Bathman_in_London Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:30 am

Gary Gold has left Bath beshocked, so Mike Ford is in charge.

Saints do have a fairly small squad compared to Sarries and Tigers (at least in terms of top quality) so if the do target Europe it will be interesting to see how that effects the league.

by beshocked Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:41 am

You're right. I forgot Ford took charge mid season. Apologies.

It's tough for any team trying to go for both titles. I feel that Saints had a bit more depth last season as some of their youngsters stepped up like the Waller bros.

by Poorfour Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:42 am

beshocked wrote:Poorfour it's always like that. European rugby will have a factor too as it stretches the resources of a team.

It's no coincidence that teams who win the AP are generally less tired than their rivals:

2010-11 - Saracens went out early of the HC - won the AP
2011-12 - Quins-one of the least affected RWC teams, out of the HC in pool stages.
2012-13 - Leicester out in quarter finals - won the AP.
2013-14 Saints - out of the HC in pool stages - won the AP.

As Saints found out in 2010-11 and Saracens last season - trying to fight on two fronts is very tough and stretches a squad to breaking point.

Fighting on two fronts (if your team isn't French) is definitely far more difficult now than it was ten years ago, and freshness definitely matters in the playoffs.

But what I was trying to point out was that even just in the AP there is far less margin for error than there used to be. Even 3 or 4 years ago, the pointy end of the season usually resolved itself into a clear top 5, 2 or 3 teams fighting for the remaining HEC spot, 2 or 3 with nothing to play for and a relegation battle for the bottom 2. Last year it felt like the teams were all much closer and outside the top 2 a single good or bad result was enough to result in a change in position. I think that will be even more pronounced this season.

[By the way, "Quins-one of the least affected RWC teams" is a great theory on the surface but doesn't actually reflect what happened during the season. Yes, they had a lower international toll than most but they were also badly hit by early season injuries. At one point Quins were down by 11 players (including 2 hookers, all 3 No 8s and 2 flankers) to injury and callups - which is comparable to Leicester's total of 13 (against a larger squad). The weekly predictions of "oh, they'll stop winning once the other clubs have their RWC players back" didn't come true either. That said, I'll concede that we did choose not to play anyone who was less than 100% against Toulon in the Amlin QF, and that all those injuries did help a little with freshness at the end of the season - the AP final was the only occasion in the entire season when the 1st XV all took the field together.]

by beshocked Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:59 am

So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

by Jimpy Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:13 am

beshocked wrote:So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

And yet, if a Tigers supporter uses the excuse, they're labelled whingers and reminded about the depth of their squad etc. A percentage loss to a team in terms of personnel, is a percentage loss, regardless of squad size. For Tigers it was a HIGH percentage.

by beshocked Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:28 am

Tigers have had a lot of injuries over the last few seasons but it an excuse used excessively for a loss. It's as if Tigers fans don't believe that opposition sides could beat a full strength Tigers team.

Some sides do use the excuse of injuries more than others - no need for me to say which two sides I think use it the most.

by HongKongCherry Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:34 pm

Honestly beshocked, you've been on here long enough to know that certain sides have a divine right! Wink

Injuries can't really be used as an excuse as it is part and parcel of the game. Every side will have a season from hell on the injury front and in general it is just luck of the draw how injuries affect your team. Tigers did have a bad streak last season, but as it is a club that has always been renowned for its strength in depth I don't think it can be used as an excuse. Nor was it a unique situation; Quins had a string of injuries last season and in recent years the likes of Sale, Glaws, Bath, etc have all had a host of players out, although no one can really compare to the season where Wasps had a plethora of retirements.

A fan can be disappointed not to have a full strength side available, but the reality is given the abrasive nature of the game that probably only happens once a season!

by Geordie Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:37 pm

Well with everything done in preseason...i think this will be the side for Welford road next weekend.

1 Vickers
2 McGuigan
3 Brookes
4 Barrow
5 Furno
6 M.Wilson
7 Welch
8 Hogg

9 Blair
10 Socino
11 Sinoti
12 Powell / Helleur
13 Tiesi
14 Cato / Brown
15 Hammersley

16 Fry 17 Lawson 18 S.Wilson 19 Green 20 Mayhew 21 Tipuna 22 Powell / Helleur 23 Cato / Brown

Only major issue is the breakdown.

Curious that when Wells was England forwards coach we were horribly bad at the breakdown....and now he's with us.....we're horribly bad there. Is that coincidence?

by Poorfour Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:53 pm

beshocked wrote:So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

To take points one by one:
- The RWC was only the first 6 games of the season; our winning streak continued 5 games beyond that, and the games we lost were concentrated in Dec/Jan/Feb (when we are historically rubbish) and at the end of the season (when a home playoff was already secured)
- "when every other team is depleted". So injuries don't count then? I've already said that we had 11 players out at one point during the RWC; I'm pretty sure Leicester were worst affected, but 13 players is not that much more than 11 when squad sizes are taken into account
- The game you've linked to is the Big Game, two months after the RWC. Still, we were missing Lowe (who despite the media love for Hopper is a far better player) and Kohn (a very big loss), and Williams was only fit enough for the bench against what looks a fairly complete Sarries 1xt XV. Not an excuse, and every winning streak has to end sometime, but it was not "all our key players".
- "didn't miss too many players" - we lost Easter, Johnston, Fa'asavalu and Vallejos to the RWC, which was less than Leicester but fairly typical for the league. We would have lost Care to the RWC too, but he got injured at the England training camp. We lost Skinner in the LDH, Guest a week or two afterwards, Matt Cairns to retirement, and Chris York (our last fit 8) got injured as well. Tom Williams and George Lowe were both injured for the early part of the season. That's 11 players including 7 starters.
- Tigers were hard hit, but we were, too - as I hope the above demonstrates
- Generally we aren't worse hit than most teams, but in the last few seasons we have had bad luck in terms of a bunch of injuries hitting the same position at the same time. In 2011-12, by the end of the RWC our back row was Trayfoot, Wallace, Robshaw - two academy players and a flanker playing at 8. We finished that season with 1 fit senior hooker (Gray) and Buchanan (fresh out of the academy) finished the AP Final. Last season, we had a point where we had 1 fit lock and 1 fit centre in the entire squad. Any team would struggle under those conditions.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:12 pm

Except last season (and anyone who tries to tell me that injuries aren't an excuse is right, but that doesn't change the ridiculous list we had) we have been lucky with injuries- in 2011/12 we had some injuries but largely in positions we actually had cover like the back row and it would be hard to argue that the RWC wasn't a contributor to early season success that made the second half of the season a lot easier. I am confident we will be stronger this season than last, but we are still a crocked Nev or 2 locks away from disaster, those are areas we lack depth

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:15 pm

Didn't Clegg start against Sarries then as well, Poorfour? Or was it just finish? His kicking was awful, but then the Sarries target the HB plan basically means we have to play our very best rugby to get any shot at a win against them, we really do struggle

by Scrumpy Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:18 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Only major issue is the breakdown.

Curious that when Wells was England forwards coach we were horribly bad at the breakdown....and now he's with us.....we're horribly bad there. Is that coincidence?

Nope, the game has moved on and left poor Mr Wells behind.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:21 pm

Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

To take points one by one:
- The RWC was only the first 6 games of the season; our winning streak continued 5 games beyond that, and the games we lost were concentrated in Dec/Jan/Feb (when we are historically rubbish) and at the end of the season (when a home playoff was already secured)
- "when every other team is depleted". So injuries don't count then? I've already said that we had 11 players out at one point during the RWC; I'm pretty sure Leicester were worst affected, but 13 players is not that much more than 11 when squad sizes are taken into account
- The game you've linked to is the Big Game, two months after the RWC. Still, we were missing Lowe (who despite the media love for Hopper is a far better player) and Kohn (a very big loss), and Williams was only fit enough for the bench against what looks a fairly complete Sarries 1xt XV. Not an excuse, and every winning streak has to end sometime, but it was not "all our key players".
- "didn't miss too many players" - we lost Easter, Johnston, Fa'asavalu and Vallejos to the RWC, which was less than Leicester but fairly typical for the league. We would have lost Care to the RWC too, but he got injured at the England training camp. We lost Skinner in the LDH, Guest a week or two afterwards, Matt Cairns to retirement, and Chris York (our last fit 8) got injured as well. Tom Williams and George Lowe were both injured for the early part of the season. That's 11 players including 7 starters.
- Tigers were hard hit, but we were, too - as I hope the above demonstrates
- Generally we aren't worse hit than most teams, but in the last few seasons we have had bad luck in terms of a bunch of injuries hitting the same position at the same time. In 2011-12, by the end of the RWC our back row was Trayfoot, Wallace, Robshaw - two academy players and a flanker playing at 8. We finished that season with 1 fit senior hooker (Gray) and Buchanan (fresh out of the academy) finished the AP Final. Last season, we had a point where we had 1 fit lock and 0 fit centre in the entire squad. Any team would struggle under those conditions.

by beshocked Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:52 pm

Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

To take points one by one:
- The RWC was only the first 6 games of the season; our winning streak continued 5 games beyond that, and the games we lost were concentrated in Dec/Jan/Feb (when we are historically rubbish) and at the end of the season (when a home playoff was already secured)
- "when every other team is depleted". So injuries don't count then? I've already said that we had 11 players out at one point during the RWC; I'm pretty sure Leicester were worst affected, but 13 players is not that much more than 11 when squad sizes are taken into account
- The game you've linked to is the Big Game, two months after the RWC. Still, we were missing Lowe (who despite the media love for Hopper is a far better player) and Kohn (a very big loss), and Williams was only fit enough for the bench against what looks a fairly complete Sarries 1xt XV. Not an excuse, and every winning streak has to end sometime, but it was not "all our key players".
- "didn't miss too many players" - we lost Easter, Johnston, Fa'asavalu and Vallejos to the RWC, which was less than Leicester but fairly typical for the league. We would have lost Care to the RWC too, but he got injured at the England training camp. We lost Skinner in the LDH, Guest a week or two afterwards, Matt Cairns to retirement, and Chris York (our last fit 8) got injured as well. Tom Williams and George Lowe were both injured for the early part of the season. That's 11 players including 7 starters.
- Tigers were hard hit, but we were, too - as I hope the above demonstrates
- Generally we aren't worse hit than most teams, but in the last few seasons we have had bad luck in terms of a bunch of injuries hitting the same position at the same time. In 2011-12, by the end of the RWC our back row was Trayfoot, Wallace, Robshaw - two academy players and a flanker playing at 8. We finished that season with 1 fit senior hooker (Gray) and Buchanan (fresh out of the academy) finished the AP Final. Last season, we had a point where we had 1 fit lock and 1 fit centre in the entire squad. Any team would struggle under those conditions.

4 players wasn't typical of the league. It was one of the lowest.

Against Saracens you were missing 2 players? You had your key men - Brown,Evans,Care,Marler and Robshaw - unless of course you think they are insignificant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9606233.stm - Against Leicester you had most of your key players - even the godlike Lowe and Kohn who you seem to say were two of your most valuable players.

Chequeredjersey you talk about ridiculous lists - every team gets injuries. London Irish and Wasps had quite a few last season but I don't hear them being mentioned.

I agree depth is a problem for Quins - instead of blaming injuries - improve strength in dpeth.

by Welly Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:14 pm

Wow 20 players missing, that's a fair amount.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:17 pm

beshocked wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

To take points one by one:
- The RWC was only the first 6 games of the season; our winning streak continued 5 games beyond that, and the games we lost were concentrated in Dec/Jan/Feb (when we are historically rubbish) and at the end of the season (when a home playoff was already secured)
- "when every other team is depleted". So injuries don't count then? I've already said that we had 11 players out at one point during the RWC; I'm pretty sure Leicester were worst affected, but 13 players is not that much more than 11 when squad sizes are taken into account
- The game you've linked to is the Big Game, two months after the RWC. Still, we were missing Lowe (who despite the media love for Hopper is a far better player) and Kohn (a very big loss), and Williams was only fit enough for the bench against what looks a fairly complete Sarries 1xt XV. Not an excuse, and every winning streak has to end sometime, but it was not "all our key players".
- "didn't miss too many players" - we lost Easter, Johnston, Fa'asavalu and Vallejos to the RWC, which was less than Leicester but fairly typical for the league. We would have lost Care to the RWC too, but he got injured at the England training camp. We lost Skinner in the LDH, Guest a week or two afterwards, Matt Cairns to retirement, and Chris York (our last fit 8) got injured as well. Tom Williams and George Lowe were both injured for the early part of the season. That's 11 players including 7 starters.
- Tigers were hard hit, but we were, too - as I hope the above demonstrates
- Generally we aren't worse hit than most teams, but in the last few seasons we have had bad luck in terms of a bunch of injuries hitting the same position at the same time. In 2011-12, by the end of the RWC our back row was Trayfoot, Wallace, Robshaw - two academy players and a flanker playing at 8. We finished that season with 1 fit senior hooker (Gray) and Buchanan (fresh out of the academy) finished the AP Final. Last season, we had a point where we had 1 fit lock and 1 fit centre in the entire squad. Any team would struggle under those conditions.

4 players wasn't typical of the league. It was one of the lowest.

Against Saracens you were missing 2 players? You had your key men - Brown,Evans,Care,Marler and Robshaw - unless of course you think they are insignificant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9606233.stm - Against Leicester you had most of your key players - even the godlike Lowe and Kohn who you seem to say were two of your most valuable players.

Chequeredjersey you talk about ridiculous lists - every team gets injuries. London Irish and Wasps had quite a few last season but I don't hear them being mentioned.

I agree depth is a problem for Quins - instead of blaming injuries - improve strength in dpeth.

Regrettably that is an issue- we can't afford to within the cap right now, not with both depth and quality. I'd have liked us to get another lock but life isn't perfect and we can't afford a huge squad whilst staying based in Twickenham/Surrey, which is an advantage in other ways such as owning our ground. The compromise we have opted for means we are reliant on avoiding injuries in certain positions and if we don't, well, that's life. It is hard however, as Tigers also know, to cater for every single centre including academy ones and players who have covered centre being out at once , but such occasional catastrophes hopefully happen only one season in many, though it they don't then training and conditioning needs serious reviewijg

by Geordie Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:24 pm

At least for once we start a season actually keeping hold of all our players... Very Happy

by Jimpy Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:25 pm

beshocked wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

To take points one by one:
- The RWC was only the first 6 games of the season; our winning streak continued 5 games beyond that, and the games we lost were concentrated in Dec/Jan/Feb (when we are historically rubbish) and at the end of the season (when a home playoff was already secured)
- "when every other team is depleted". So injuries don't count then? I've already said that we had 11 players out at one point during the RWC; I'm pretty sure Leicester were worst affected, but 13 players is not that much more than 11 when squad sizes are taken into account
- The game you've linked to is the Big Game, two months after the RWC. Still, we were missing Lowe (who despite the media love for Hopper is a far better player) and Kohn (a very big loss), and Williams was only fit enough for the bench against what looks a fairly complete Sarries 1xt XV. Not an excuse, and every winning streak has to end sometime, but it was not "all our key players".
- "didn't miss too many players" - we lost Easter, Johnston, Fa'asavalu and Vallejos to the RWC, which was less than Leicester but fairly typical for the league. We would have lost Care to the RWC too, but he got injured at the England training camp. We lost Skinner in the LDH, Guest a week or two afterwards, Matt Cairns to retirement, and Chris York (our last fit 8) got injured as well. Tom Williams and George Lowe were both injured for the early part of the season. That's 11 players including 7 starters.
- Tigers were hard hit, but we were, too - as I hope the above demonstrates
- Generally we aren't worse hit than most teams, but in the last few seasons we have had bad luck in terms of a bunch of injuries hitting the same position at the same time. In 2011-12, by the end of the RWC our back row was Trayfoot, Wallace, Robshaw - two academy players and a flanker playing at 8. We finished that season with 1 fit senior hooker (Gray) and Buchanan (fresh out of the academy) finished the AP Final. Last season, we had a point where we had 1 fit lock and 1 fit centre in the entire squad. Any team would struggle under those conditions.

4 players wasn't typical of the league. It was one of the lowest.

Against Saracens you were missing 2 players? You had your key men - Brown,Evans,Care,Marler and Robshaw - unless of course you think they are insignificant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9606233.stm - Against Leicester you had most of your key players - even the godlike Lowe and Kohn who you seem to say were two of your most valuable players.

Chequeredjersey you talk about ridiculous lists - every team gets injuries. London Irish and Wasps had quite a few last season but I don't hear them being mentioned.

I agree depth is a problem for Quins - instead of blaming injuries - improve strength in dpeth.

Probably because they were pump last season and the only way they were going to win much was if some old lady died and willed a win to them, the list of injuries was immaterial to their situation....

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