How can Nadal be dropping sets to Isner?

First topic message reminder :

I know he's far the better player, and they were tie-break sets, but I'm staggered at him dropping two sets on clay to a guy who usually can only function on a faster court.

Is it these balls? Or is it symptomatic of something else; when the greats drop a bit it's often hard to believe it until really bad things happen.

More good news for Murray I'd have thought.

legendkillar wrote:Nadal won't play a similar player like that on clay for a long time.

Or any surface for that matter - there arent many 6'10' players on tour!

I can't see the return as a crucial part of Nadal's game. He's not looking for the killer return, he just wants a comfortable start of the rally.
I don't think his returning of Isner's serve was much different than it usually is of someone else's serve.

Isner has played some good matches on Clay, DC 2010 against Serbia (Troicki and Djokovic), DC 2011 against Chile (Capdeville). His stamina is also not an issue (the Wimbledon marathon). He has never been consistent on clay though. Recent loses to Chela in Dusseldorf and Rome are indicative.

Isner played S&V on clay in this match against Rafa.

The match reminded me of the Soderling 2009 match.

Also, Rafa played two five-setters (albeit on Grass) at Wimbledon in 2010 and still won Wimby.

Almost like Fed playing 5-setters at least once in the slams, but still winning them.

Legendkillar, that is bogbrush's point (and i hate to say it but I agree with him ) is that the kick serve becomes a problem when you stand back and let it kick. This has been one of the main issues with Nadal in that while he is an amazing player in my mind and has accomplished so much he basically plays one way. In recent years, take last year for example he was flattening out the forehand more, going for the serve more, and occassionally stepping into the court on returns to be more aggressive. But so far early in the year he doesn't seem to be making those in match adjustments and he is not using any variety in his attack. This is even more apparent in his recent matchups against nole, he keeps wanting to stand in his backhand corner and hit cross court forehands to Novak's backhand all day. That formula hasn't been successful so why keep doing it match after match. He either can't play another way (which I think he can) or he lacks the confidence and belief at this point to try something different and change up tactics based on how the opponent is playing.

Hey laverfan welcome to v606. Was hoping to see you here as I am a fan of your posts.

socal my point was that Nadal's position allowed the kick serve to become a weapon. I stressed this many times in my posts. Bogbrush's point was that he couldn't understand how it was a weapon on clay and not hardcourt.

Legendkillar

Bogbrush's point were a bit more subtle:
If Rafa was having problems returning the high kicking serve, why didn't he step in a bit? After all, on clay it should be easier step in than on quicker courts.

Therefore the kick serve should not be a bigger problem on clay than on hard or grass, where it is harder for even a good returner to take the ball early.

Socal raises a good point that Rafa currently seems unwilling or unable to adjust his tactics mid match, even when things aren't going well for him. Perhaps a lack of confidence thing, in that he is retreating to his 'comfort zone' of playing from deep and relatively defensively (straight from the Andy Murray play-book).

dummyhalf

Like I said, Rafa's game has always been to return serve from 3-4ft behind the baseline. It has brought him success. It is very difficult for any player to make an adjustment like that when facing players with a big kick serve.

Well that is my point legendkillar, it should have taken all nadal all of five seconds to realize that for a guy six nine that he shouldn't stand as far back to return his serve. Where is the variety and the adjustments needed to maximize his chances at victory?

As for the passing shots Isner is not a good volleyer you don't even have to pass him just getting the ball dipping at his legs and he can't get down fast enough. You don't need to tickle the line to pass him, in fact you don't need to pass him period. Numerous times in that match he blew volleys that required him to get down quickly.

Dummyhalf that is exactly correct. He seems to revert to what is comfortable for him and keep trying to get a different result with the same strategy and tactics that serve him well with other players and in other matches but maybe not in this particular match against this current opponent.

Socal raises a good point that Rafa currently seems unwilling or unable to adjust his tactics mid match, even when things aren't going well for him.
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But when did Rafa ever changed his tactics on clay or anywhere for that matter?

He has played the same game and made very small adjustements down to surface differences. His tactic has always been the same.

When he was 61 down and break points down against Federer in that FO 06 final, he did npt change his tactics, did he? he kept hammering that BH until it paid dividends. Had federer stayed on the same level he was on that first set, Nadal could have only been a spectator as GP mentioned yesterday.

Same in Rome 2006 final. There was no change of tactic when Federer had points for 5/2 in the fifth. It was simply Federer panicking when crossing the line.

No change of tactics at Wimblodon when 2 sets to one down v Haase and Petchner. Nadal just waits for the drop of stamina from his opponent.

What change of tactic did he used when he played Tsonga in that AO 07, or in fall 09 when he kept being beaten by all top 10 players?

socal, Isner played some good volleys against Nadal. Some players will up their games against the better players. Adjustments during matches or for a particular game can be very difficult to execute if it is not the game you are used to playing. This is where the UE comes in to play. Bear this in mind. For the 1st 3 sets in that match Isner's average first serve speed was 140mph!! So guys, cut Nadal some slack for crying out loud!

Tenez wrote:Socal raises a good point that Rafa currently seems unwilling or unable to adjust his tactics mid match, even when things aren't going well for him.
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But when did Rafa ever changed his tactics on clay or anywhere for that matter?

He has played the same game and made very small adjustements down to surface differences. His tactic has always been the same.

When he was 61 down and break points down against Federer in that FO 06 final, he did npt change his tactics, did he? he kept hammering that BH until it paid dividends. Had federer stayed on the same level he was on that first set, Nadal could have only been a spectator as GP mentioned yesterday.

Same in Rome 2006 final. There was no change of tactic when Federer had points for 5/2 in the fifth. It was simply Federer panicking when crossing the line.

No change of tactics at Wimblodon when 2 sets to one down v Haase and Petchner. Nadal just waits for the drop of stamina from his opponent.

What change of tactic did he used when he played Tsonga in that AO 07, or in fall 09 when he kept being beaten by all top 10 players?

Thank You.

Someone with sense!!

Well, i don't agree, over the years Rafa has added a lot to his game. He has added a good flat forehand, a good slice backhand, some mph on his first serve, and he is an infrequent but pretty good volleyer. I think if he wants to continue having the success that he has had up till this point he will have keep adding to his game and utilize the variety that he has developed over the years.

Well, i don't agree, over the years Rafa has added a lot to his game.
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He has added power as you woudl expect while reaching his peak and his very loopy shots of 2005 became more spinny and more powerful and got therefore a better length....making him look more agressive...but there are the same tactics.

And we can see it so bluntly now that he gets hammered exactly the same way by Djoko and Davydenko who hold a 8/0 v Rafa in their last 8 encounters as he simply can't do anything else than he has done for the last 6 years.