England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

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England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:36 am

Well this morning England have named an unchanged squad for the fifth and final test of the season

Means Plunkett hasn't recovered from his injury, Broad will be assessed with Stokes/Finn waiting in the wings and Sam Robson gets one more test
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Duty281 on Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:55 am

This is England's last dosage of proper cricket until April. Sad

At least they are all set to blow India away one final time, and make it three series wins on the bounce against the visitors.

Keep an unchanged side, but I have a feeling that Robson is dipping at the last chance saloon, and that Woakes and Jordan require a much larger return on their bowling than what they have shown this summer.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by msp83 on Sun 10 Aug 2014, 11:05 am

Gambhir out for India, Ishant to come back if he's fit.
It could be Shikhar Dhawan back in to open, or if the management are considering Rohit, then make him open and thus not burden the middle order.
Hopefully Kohli's bad patch got over with the last test, and Pujara can build on the starts that he invariably does, something that he kept doing regularly before this series.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by msp83 on Sun 10 Aug 2014, 11:06 am

England should bring back Stokes for either Woakes or Jordan. Now that the seniors are scoring runs, Stokes' batting doesn't come into the mix all that much, any ways he was batting at 8, and he was England's best bowler during many passages of play when he played.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Mon 11 Aug 2014, 11:28 am

--For India it's not about the team changes....but confidence...whoever they play should be conditioned to not go out in 2 minds.......but rather bat positively and with intent.
if they want to attack Moeen for example...then it should be a no holds barred attack........unlike now when they seems to be getting caught in 2 minds

--Jadeja will be persisted with reading from the very overt defense of him by Dhoni.......and so he must bat positively his way.

--the bowling picks itself.....with ishant returning and Ashwin having scored the runs......Aaron shown pace and promise...pankaj's career is done with now.

--the only variable is Gambhir as an opener ( looks not just rusted but past expiry date);
OR Dhawan...I would not have dropped him..but having dropped him it's hard to bring him in the next game
OR another radical option like opening with Pujara...who comes in..in the middle order Rohit or Ojha ??

OR an Ultra radical option like opening with Rohit

OR an ultra ultra radical option like opening with with one of of Ashwin or Bhuvi......

fortunately there is only one variable and plenty of options to alter it ( can't say it would be fixed though)

my personal one would be to swallow the humble pie and bring back Dhawan
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Mon 11 Aug 2014, 12:08 pm

I'd probably swap Woakes for Stokes. Been better than he was last summer, but he doesn't look a test seamer to me. Don't know if I could trust him as a third seamer. Give Jordan another try to get his radar right.
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Mon 11 Aug 2014, 12:09 pm

Batting wise, I don't see the point in chucking Robson. a. who's next and b. the opening slot risks becoming a conveyor belt where if you don't hit the ground running, you're dumped.
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 11 Aug 2014, 12:28 pm

I think Robson's done enough to still play this Test, but he could really do with a score here.

Reports suggesting that Broad will be fit (possibly playing with a mask on) and given he's going to get surgery done after this game in any case England will be keen to play him if at all possible you'd think.

While Moeen's bowling has improved markedly, I did say when he set out that I thought he'd do a good job with the ball, but that I was worried he's not a good enough batsman for a top 6 slot. He could certainly do with a score too, if just for his confidence.

Woakes does look a better bowler than last summer, and will do a good holding job if necessary, but at the moment I'm not quite seeing him with much of a future at Test level. Would bring in Stokes for him. Would probably stick with Jordan, I think he bowls enough wicket-taking balls to be a factor, but hope he finds some more consistency sooner rather than later...

India of course have a lot of problems. Kohli can't buy a run, and when Anderson gets the wood over you there's nowhere to hide (Thirimane springs to mind recently, but also at times Tendulkar and Ponting for instance). India should stick with him though, lots of credit left, and no better options out there in any case.

Gambhir didn't do anything, but dropping him means either going back to Dhawan (which would be odd, given Dhawan didn't do anything better), or going completely left-field. I think once you've made the call to go back to Gambhir you have to give him both Tests, but my concern is that the frailties which plagued him throughout the last couple of years of his Test career beforehand are still very much there for all to see.

Jadeja's batting is just bizarre, for someone who has all those triple-centuries he seems completely unable/unwilling to even attempt to build an innings of substance. His bowling has been mostly unthreatening (just 9 wickets in 4 tests, and a few of those were cheap-ish "slog" wickets), I would be tempted to leave him out. of course that leaves the question of who comes in, so let's look at the bowlers.

Ashwin batted really nicely, though he does seem an accident waiting to happen on the pull/hook. His bowling looked quite good to me too, looked like he was putting more into his action.

Pankaj was poor in this game. He ran out of energy quickly after a decent first spell and bowled too many pressure-releasing balls. He's also a bit of an outdated cricketer: fielding is poor, batting is unacceptable really. In the modern game, you can't have that. At 28, Mike suggests he's too old to change his ways, and I tend to agree. Shame as there is some ability with the ball there...

Sharma should come back in. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I do wonder if Dhoni made a mistake in the second Test where he pretty much bowled Sharma into the ground to win it (I think Sharma bowled 13 overs or so either side of lunch).

Aaron looked sharp and should keep his spot. So that means you have Aaron, Sharma, Kumar and Ashwin. Overall I think you'd want a fifth bowler, but who? Does Jadeja keep his spot by default? Maybe so...

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Mon 11 Aug 2014, 12:31 pm

I'd probably keep Gambhir in, purely because Dhawan looks lost at present. With respect to Gambhir, he doesn't really have much of an international future you'd assume.
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by sirfredperry on Mon 11 Aug 2014, 2:55 pm

Can India play as badly again? Surely not. Bat first, get a decent score and the series can still be saved. Well, that's the best-case scenario. In reality, India are really up against it, with none of the batsman making much a mark in the last two Tests. It's almost a parallel with England in Australia last winter when just about ALL the England batsman were out of form.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by msp83 on Mon 11 Aug 2014, 5:05 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I think Robson's done enough to still play this Test, but he could really do with a score here.

Reports suggesting that Broad will be fit (possibly playing with a mask on) and given he's going to get surgery done after this game in any case England will be keen to play him if at all possible you'd think.

While Moeen's bowling has improved markedly, I did say when he set out that I thought he'd do a good job with the ball, but that I was worried he's not a good enough batsman for a top 6 slot. He could certainly do with a score too, if just for his confidence.

Woakes does look a better bowler than last summer, and will do a good holding job if necessary, but at the moment I'm not quite seeing him with much of a future at Test level. Would bring in Stokes for him. Would probably stick with Jordan, I think he bowls enough wicket-taking balls to be a factor, but hope he finds some more consistency sooner rather than later...

India of course have a lot of problems. Kohli can't buy a run, and when Anderson gets the wood over you there's nowhere to hide (Thirimane springs to mind recently, but also at times Tendulkar and Ponting for instance). India should stick with him though, lots of credit left, and no better options out there in any case.

Gambhir didn't do anything, but dropping him means either going back to Dhawan (which would be odd, given Dhawan didn't do anything better), or going completely left-field. I think once you've made the call to go back to Gambhir you have to give him both Tests, but my concern is that the frailties which plagued him throughout the last couple of years of his Test career beforehand are still very much there for all to see.

Jadeja's batting is just bizarre, for someone who has all those triple-centuries he seems completely unable/unwilling to even attempt to build an innings of substance. His bowling has been mostly unthreatening (just 9 wickets in 4 tests, and a few of those were cheap-ish "slog" wickets), I would be tempted to leave him out. of course that leaves the question of who comes in, so let's look at the bowlers.

Ashwin batted really nicely, though he does seem an accident waiting to happen on the pull/hook. His bowling looked quite good to me too, looked like he was putting more into his action.

Pankaj was poor in this game. He ran out of energy quickly after a decent first spell and bowled too many pressure-releasing balls. He's also a bit of an outdated cricketer: fielding is poor, batting is unacceptable really. In the modern game, you can't have that. At 28, Mike suggests he's too old to change his ways, and I tend to agree. Shame as there is some ability with the ball there...

Sharma should come back in. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I do wonder if Dhoni made a mistake in the second Test where he pretty much bowled Sharma into the ground to win it (I think Sharma bowled 13 overs or so either side of lunch).

Aaron looked sharp and should keep his spot. So that means you have Aaron, Sharma, Kumar and Ashwin. Overall I think you'd want a fifth bowler, but who? Does Jadeja keep his spot by default? Maybe so...

For England, there is a series to be won and they wouldn't want any slip up at the last moment. The back-up seamers other than Stokes, haven't been much of a factor for them as yet, so if Broad can take the field, then he most certainly will play. They aren't playing any tests in recent times after the series any ways.
They should bring back Stokes for either Jordan or Woakes. Woakes is a better bat, and Jordan too hasn't been bowling well any ways. With Moeen and Stokes struggling with the bat, keeping Woakes in as the 4th seamer isn't a bad option.
As for India, Gambhir should go. He always had technical issues but overcame the same with determination and scored runs against quality bowling in tough conditions. But those days are over, and what we have now is a version that isn't any different from the one who was dropped in 2012. So no point continuing with him, he's not in the young club anyways. My option would be to bring back Shikhar, though he didn't look confident at all. If at all they are thinking of Rohit, then he should open.......
As for Jadeja, as I already mentioned above, he's a much better holding bowler than Ashwin is. He can usually bowl overs after overs without going all over the park. With Varun Aaron, a bowler who has pace as his greatest asset and a fragile body his greatest enemy, you just can't have him overbowled. When he has the freedom to attack without getting caught up in the situation of needing to contain, Ravichandran Ashwin can be a better bowler. Both Ashwin and Aaron do deserve their place in the side, and we can't forget Ishant will be returning after an injury, and Bhuvneshwar has played all the 4 tests so far and has had an injury concern before the previous one. Binny isn't a test bowler of any standard. The likes of Pankaj and Shami who anyways isn't in good form, do not add anything with the bat. So all things considered, Jadeja has to play. Leave him at 8 and let him bat his way for this test. Perhaps there should be a relook at his approach to batting after this tour, and I believe in the familiar conditions at home, he could come out with a more sensible approach to his batting, and in spinning conditions, he's as valuable an attacking bowling option as Ashwin is, and can make the side as a bowler alone.
And as for Kohli, he and Pujara are still the top batsmen of this side. Kohli is going through a rough patch, his confidence is down, and ones the likes of James Anderson, focused on his bowling, has a batsman in such a situation, then it might not be easy to come out of the rough patch easily. Kohli would need a moment or 2 of luck going his way, and ones the turn around moment happens sooner rather than later, he'll be back to his best. All India can hope at the moment is to hope that the turnaround moment happens in the next test........

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Gregers on Tue 12 Aug 2014, 11:25 am

Obvious change is to drop Robson, but we dont have anyone in the squad who could come in for him...

Maybe open with Cook and Ballance, Moeen at 3, Bell, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Woakes, Jordan, Finn, Anderson. Thats what I'd go with. No point risking Broad in a match where India's confidence against the quicks will already be shot. Perfect opportunity to bring Finn in to get some wickets, would do his confidence the world of good. Ideally I'd have liked to see them bring in one of Taylor/Hales/Vince in place of Robson for this test.


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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Dorothy_Mantooth on Tue 12 Aug 2014, 11:35 am

Gregers wrote:Obvious change is to drop Robson, but we dont have anyone in the squad who could come in for him...

Maybe open with Cook and Ballance, Moeen at 3, Bell, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Woakes, Jordan, Finn, Anderson. Thats what I'd go with. No point risking Broad in a match where India's confidence against the quicks will already be shot. Perfect opportunity to bring Finn in to get some wickets, would do his confidence the world of good. Ideally I'd have liked to see them bring in one of Taylor/Hales/Vince in place of Robson for this test.


With three a critical position in the order and Ballance having started so brightly there, can't see any sense in moving him to open.


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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Azzy on Tue 12 Aug 2014, 12:04 pm

I don't like change for change's sake. While Robson hasn't particularly impressed, the alternative options are equally unimpressive. Carberry has never impressed me, Lyth gets the same rep as Robson had before he was first capped, and I can't think of another alternative that is of sufficient quality / temperament.

I'd keep Robson for this last Test, and tell him to get some more cricket under his belt over the winter. If he can't get runs under his belt, I'd give him another summer in county cricket and give Lyth the 2015 summer. Both are great talents.

I do not want to see Carberry opening the batting in Test cricket ever again, so I'd stick with Robson over him even if Robson scores a pair in the 5th test.

I'd also drop Woakes, who looks as threatening as a pigeon. Bring in Finn.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Aug 2014, 3:09 pm

Stokes and Plunkett (when not being told to bang it in) both looked more threatening than Woakes and Jordan. As such I would recall Stokes.


Robson will play but there is then a big gap till the next test for England with a lot of ODIs to be played. It will be interesting to see who partners cook in Antigua in 8 months time. Should Alex Hales get in the ODI team and shine we could well see him make a rapid step up. Otherwise we are looking at players who feature well n the remaining CC matches. A lot of talk about Lyth, but frankly his technique is too loose while he is only the 3rd best opener at Yorkshire (behind Root and Lees).

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Gerry SA on Tue 12 Aug 2014, 8:00 pm

Can someone explain what R Jadeja actually brings to the table? His batting is just a form of slogging. Whilst his bowling needs a lot of work. He might one day be of R Shastri's level. But not yet.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Azzy on Tue 12 Aug 2014, 8:59 pm

Er, he shares a name with Ajay Jadeja?

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 13 Aug 2014, 10:23 am

Gerry SA wrote:Can someone explain what R Jadeja actually brings to the table? His batting is just a form of slogging. Whilst his bowling needs a lot of work. He might one day be of R Shastri's level. But not yet.

Apparently he has "character". Plus England have struggled with his bowling in ODIs (though of course the batsmen have very differnet mindsets).

Would love to know how he has managed to get a couple of triple hundreds in FC cricket.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 Aug 2014, 3:41 pm

Gerry SA wrote:Can someone explain what R Jadeja actually brings to the table? His batting is just a form of slogging. Whilst his bowling needs a lot of work. He might one day be of R Shastri's level. But not yet.
Jadeja can bowl overs after overs without going for far too many runs. Spinners are not expected to run through lineups in English conditions, though the Indian batsmen v Moeen Ali somehow has been a different story. Ashwin hasn't been a massive wickettaking threat in overseas conditions, and he tends to go for plenty as well. So between the 2, particularly if they aren't looking for a 5th bowling option of substance, then playing Jadeja, who also is a good fielder usually(that Cook catch I know) makes sense. Even if they play a 5th bowler, so long as there is no genuine seam bowling all-rounder, then they have to go with both Ashwin and Jadeja.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Wed 13 Aug 2014, 9:53 pm

CI reports Gambhir will retain his place and Binny might replace Jadeja
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Liam on Wed 13 Aug 2014, 10:06 pm

I think England will keep it simple and name an unchanged side because they won the last test and will come with the old 'we don't want to change a winning side'.

Change I would make is Stokes for Woakes. Give Jordan the end of the series.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Thu 14 Aug 2014, 9:50 am

Looks like Binny and Stokes are set to play.

India has not lost a test in which Binny has played and Eng not won a test that Stokes has played  Very Happy 

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 7:52 am

"Processes are more important than results" - MS Dhoni.

Yes folks he actually said that
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 8:15 am

If Alex Hales isn't in the ODI side we riot.
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 8:41 am

GSC wrote:If Alex Hales isn't in the ODI side we riot.

I think he'll be in the test side come west indies. Hulluvaplaar
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 9:42 am

Olly wrote: "Processes are more important than results" - MS Dhoni.

Yes folks he actually said that

so it seems.....a rather dud comment to make.

And normally I am a severe Dhoni critic....but when i see his Press conference video...
I believe he means:
" we do not want to put ourselves under pressure by thinking too much about the result.....the enormity of an equalizing win...or the ignominy that the defeat will bring...
but rather focus on the process of taking it session, by session...winning as many sessions as possible...and if losing the session, then not by a huge margin."


I believe he has used this press conference to set the "thinking pattern" for his own team so as to alleviate the pressure of result on them.
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by liverbnz on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 9:57 am

Is Hales ready for Test cricket? Never looked it to me from my limited experienece of him. I know he's supposed to have improved a bit but he looks no better than Robson.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 10:06 am

Came back much improved this season.

Not sure I'd have in tests yet, but I don't see how he can't make the ODI side
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 10:11 am

Rain around this morning and its fairly damp around.

Can't imagine Dhoni will bat again
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Azzy on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 10:35 am

Not sure Dhoni is as good a captain as Cook. He makes some awful decisions.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 10:39 am

With conditions as they are, I'd probably go Stokes for Jordan.

Bowl first toss I suspect
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Azzy on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 10:49 am

I like Jordan. Lose Woakes.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 10:56 am

GSC wrote:Rain around this morning and its fairly damp around.
...

Hope the weather doesn't disrupt things too much. I was at the Oval on Wednesday evening for a Surrey members' meeting. The ground looked in fantastic shape. Brought home to me how much work goes into the preparation. The groundstaff were still working at 7 to 8 o'clock whilst sprinklers were lightly being used on the outfield. The wicket and surrounding areas were completely covered which destroyed any hopes of an early snoop!

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:03 am

England unchanged, win the toss and bowl first
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:06 am

Unsurprisingly Dhoni also said he'd have bowled.

Pankaj and Jadeja dropped for Ishant and Binny
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:08 am

Binny and Ishant sharma in for India and again one of those tosses that's a " good one to lose"
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:13 am

Probably be alright after the first session, but the key is the top order surviving more than 15 minutes this time.
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:14 am

Well if they aspire to win in English conditions then this is the " rubber meets the road" moment.

they have to not crash in first session and bat all day....get about 300 runs in first inning.....and then they are hanging in the game
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:17 am

Anderson can be irresistible in these conditions, and Broads a destructive player on form, but beyond that theres not too much to fear. Jordans radar has been wayward, and Woakes doesn't look anything more than a decent 4th seamer.
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:18 am

and conversely.......their series could end in first session.

all in their hands india...courgae grit, mental fortitude.......all of that needs to come out now
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by liverbnz on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:19 am

Can't complain about England being unchanged really - winning formula. I'd think Woakes will have to make a bit of an impact here though. Bowled reasonabley well, especially in the 3rd Test but he doesn't look overly threatening. He's gonna need to develop something in his bowling, either late swing or a bit more bite in order to trouble good batsman.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by liverbnz on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:19 am

Prediction, 80/3 at lunch.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Gerry SA on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:29 am

India all out by lunch under 100. 

Seems like they haven't a clue who makes their best XI. 

Binny was unfairly dropped, now he's back. Jadeja has looked way short of Test standard, yet he still played 4/5 Tests...

Shame that Stokes missed out.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:30 am

liverbnz wrote:Prediction, 80/3 at lunch.

or they could be 90-9 also.......this Indian team has lost 9 wickets in much less threatening conditions session
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by liverbnz on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:35 am

There's one. Nick Gambir gone again.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:35 am

Gambhir departs to Jimmys 4th ball
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by Gerry SA on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:38 am

Gambhir, a player long past his best, what does that say about the young openers in India? Gambhir no Test hundred in 4/5 years and still got selected on this tour.. madness....

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by freemo on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:38 am

dosen't get any better than that does it!!!! C'mon Jimmy!!

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:51 am

Gambhir picked on memories because dhoni doesn't trust youngsters....jiwanjot and Rahul are two competent openers, especially rahul
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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Aug 2014, 11:57 am

Mildly surprised to see England unchanged. Don't change a winning team , etc ...but they could regret it if Woakes and Jordan can't start contributing properly ; can't expect Jimmy and Broad (and Ali !) to do all the work every time ?
May be all right ; but I think keeping two bowlers who have taken about four wickets between them over two matches is rather asking for trouble...

Agree with the Indian changes : doesn't do a lot for the batting but I reckon the bowling looks better.

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Re: England vs India - Fifth Test, The Oval

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