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Post by hawkeye on Sun 31 Aug 2014, 09:29

Since Neil Harman has been persuaded to take a long holiday sadly The Times has had limited "in depth" coverage of tennis. However I recently enjoyed this recent article about the rivalry between the two painters John Constable and Joseph Mallord William Turner. I thought the more cultured posters of 606v2 might enjoy it too. The less cultured posters might just enjoy the similarities and differences to another more familiar rivalry Wink

The article is titled "Two master painters only one winner" and is by James Fox. It's PPV so sorry no link but well worth reading the whole article if you can afford it Smile

It was varnishing day at the Royal Academy’s 1832 Summer Exhibition and artists were putting the finishing touches to their exhibits. Among them were two of the great British painters of the age: John Constable and Joseph Mallord William Turner. Born only a year apart and long-time acquaintances, the two now found themselves in uncomfortable proximity: their paintings had been hung next to each other.

As Constable completed a canvas he’d worked on for 13 years, Turner looked on with dismay. His small seascape Helvoetsluys seemed worryingly bland by comparison. And so, as soon as Constable was gone, Turner applied a stroke of vivid red paint to its foreground. He claimed it depicted a buoy in the water, but it was really an audacious attention-grabber. When Constable returned, he was horrified to discover the show-stealing addition to his rival’s exhibit: “Turner has been here,” he growled, “and fired a gun

The two first met at a dinner in 1813, where Constable described his counterpart as uncouth but entertaining. Over the years their prickly relationship soured. At the 1831 Summer Exhibition, Constable masterminded his own petty victory over Turner by removing his rival’s submission from a prime position and replacing it with his own effort — the now famous Salisbury Cathedral from the Meadows. Turner was furious with Constable and apparently “opened upon him like a ferret” in front of stunned bystanders.

The rivalry between Turner and Constable remains one of the more famous in art — alongside Zeuxis and Parhassius, Michelangelo and Leonardo, Picasso and Matisse. Now it is to be revived as Tate Britain and the V&A open new exhibitions of their work next month. The rivalry is particularly resonant because their differences were a microcosm of many fault-lines that ran through British society. Constable was a middle-class Tory, Turner a working-class barber’s son; Constable was from East Anglia, Turner was an inveterate Londoner; and while Constable is often viewed as an old English fogey, Turner is presented as a radical English eccentric.

Turner no doubt wanted it this way. Like many artists of the modern era, he eagerly portrayed himself as an enemy of social and cultural conventions. Where Constable was a paragon of family values, Turner refused to get married, preferring to devote attention to his homemade erotica. And while the popular image of Constable is of a man politely painting haystacks in Suffolk, Turner is famous for lashing himself to a ship’s mast in a storm, braving the elements like a pencil-brandishing cockney Odysseus.

But which is the greater artist? In my view there is no doubt: Turner. He was the most original landscapist of the 19th century and he is today one of the few British artists genuinely revered around the world. Constable, for all his achievements, will never quite shake off the parochialism to which his work has lent itself, while Turner’s breathtaking canvases seem to transcend the time and place from which they came.

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Post by bogbrush on Sun 31 Aug 2014, 14:08

I'm guessing you're equating the brilliant but conventional Constable with Rafa, while the more erratic but varied and spectacular Turner is Federer.

I'm not sure the parallels stand up but it's an opinion.
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Post by laverfan on Sun 31 Aug 2014, 14:59

This reminds me of Pancho Gonzales smashing trophies that he had lost to his rivals.

Or Tolkien and CS Lewis.

Or Monet and Degas.

Or Mozart and Salieri.

It is not easy to translate Literature and Art into the world of Sport, no matter how hard you try, HE.

You want to attempt McEnroe and Borg with similar brush strokes?

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Post by invisiblecoolers on Sun 31 Aug 2014, 15:01

I actually read the entire article and couldn't figure out what HE exactly meant to convey.
What I realized is this could be HE's best ever article considering he never used the nouns "Rafa" or "Murray" the entire article.

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Post by summerblues on Sun 31 Aug 2014, 15:43

laverfan wrote:Or Mozart and Salieri.
Mhmm....

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Post by summerblues on Sun 31 Aug 2014, 15:45

invisiblecoolers wrote:I actually read the entire article and couldn't figure out what HE exactly meant to convey.
What I realized is this could be HE's best ever article considering he never used the nouns "Rafa" or "Murray" the entire article.
She was conveying exactly the same thing as she conveys with her every article, though she did not use the words such as "Rafa" specifically.

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Post by Jeremy_Kyle on Sun 31 Aug 2014, 22:34

Clearly a tennis message encrypted into the article but this time I must confess I struggle to get it. One can only guess: Turner = Nadal, Constable= a Federer + Murray hybrid??
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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 00:07

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:Turner = Nadal

Is that because "Turner refused to get married, preferring to devote attention to his homemade erotica"?

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Post by bogbrush on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 00:48

summerblues wrote:
laverfan wrote:Or Mozart and Salieri.
Mhmm....
Indeed.

Wolfgang Amadeus Federer and Antonio Nadal.
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Post by invisiblecoolers on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 01:32

summerblues wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:I actually read the entire article and couldn't figure out what HE exactly meant to convey.
What I realized is this could be HE's best ever article considering he never used the nouns "Rafa" or "Murray" the entire article.
She was conveying exactly the same thing as she conveys with her every article, though she did not use the words such as "Rafa" specifically.

Oh I forgot HE was she, picard my bad.

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Post by laverfan on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 04:53

bogbrush wrote:
summerblues wrote:
laverfan wrote:Or Mozart and Salieri.
Mhmm....
Indeed.

Wolfgang Amadeus Federer and Antonio Nadal.

@SB/BB... I thought I covered - two Brits, two Frenchmen, one German, one Italian.

I can add Goya, Vermeer, Van Gogh, El Greco, Pollock, Picasso, etc., if you like. Wink

@SB... I am certain your train of thought did not stop there chin, would you care to elaborate?

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Post by summerblues on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 05:08

laverfan wrote:@SB... I am certain your train of thought did not stop there chin, would you care to elaborate?
No, I would not Smile

It was your comparison after all, so I should not allow my imagination to run too far afield.

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Post by hawkeye on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 08:11

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:Clearly a tennis message encrypted into the article but this time I must confess I struggle to get it. One can only guess: Turner = Nadal, Constable= a Federer + Murray hybrid??

I don't know... I can imagine there were lots of people dabbling with paint at the same time as John and Joseph took center stage with their competitive production of master pieces but their names have been lost in history. Their may even have been someone that produced the odd piece that stood up quite well when hung beside a Turner or a Constable. That painter may have even been quite a socialite, fun to be with and always eager to show of their dancing skills. Who knows Run

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 09:25

Perhaps that painter was Claude Lorrain. Turner & Constable may have got more acclaim but they knew that Lorrain's best was better than their own.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 09:31

Can't quite grasp what this has to do with tennis. In my opinion you're trying too hard to be smart HE.
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Post by HM Murdock on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 11:07

Well done, Hawkeye. Your two favourite players are very popular. You are clearly an insightful and wise person to like players who are also much admired by other people too.

Thank you also for your many reminders that other players are not, and cannot hope to be, as popular as Federer and Nadal.

Sometimes those of us who inexplicably have other favourite players fall into the trap of enjoying watching the careers of our favourites unfold.

Fortunately we have you to remind us that our favourites are nothing more than less popular footnotes in the saga of Federer and Nadal, and we can limit our enjoyment appropriately.

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Post by Silver on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 16:12

HM Murdoch wrote:Well done, Hawkeye. Your two favourite players are very popular. You are clearly an insightful and wise person to like players who are also much admired by other people too.

Thank you also for your many reminders that other players are not, and cannot hope to be, as popular as Federer and Nadal.

Sometimes those of us who inexplicably have other favourite players fall into the trap of enjoying watching the careers of our favourites unfold.

Fortunately we have you to remind us that our favourites are nothing more than less popular footnotes in the saga of Federer and Nadal, and we can limit our enjoyment appropriately.

God, this is so true. I'm actually fairly convinced that hawkeye is a reverse-troll for Nadal. S/he does him no favours with his/her posts on here, and I'm beginning to think it's deliberate.

Either way, best to just ignore and move on. HE used to post some interesting stuff from time to time, but not any more.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 16:12

Nadal is more popular than UNICEF, Manchester Utd, Apple, Google and Coca Cola. Its insane he popular he is. Any thoughts on todays games hawkeye?
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Post by hawkeye on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 16:34

Believe it or not I love Art, have worked in the area of design and even dabble a bit with paint (gouache rather than oils  Smile)  I found the article interesting in itself and am hoping to see the exhibition it referred to.  The insight into Turners and Constables rivalry was interesting. All that genius and passion together with a desire to be seen as the best. With painting the result is a concrete object with tennis it's all about the moment but both are above or not as important as the life and death or hum drum of daily life.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 16:59

In my spare time I craft watches... well watch.
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Post by laverfan on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 09:58

hawkeye wrote: With painting the result is a concrete object with tennis it's all about the moment but both are above or not as important as the life and death or hum drum of daily life.

Are you advocating banning tennis and giving the ATP/WTA paint brushes and canvasses to produce tangible art? Laugh

Art has it's place, as does the sport, just ask the Greeks, who started the Olympics.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 10:35

Why not combine the two LF. I went to see this exhibition a few years ago -
http://barber.org.uk/court-on-canvas/

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Post by laverfan on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 12:19

That is interesting, JHM. Is it a Williams, Murray, Parera or Nishikori?

I was thinking more along the lines of https://www.flickr.com/photos/43555660@N00/5213775118/


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