IRB should rein in Steve Hansen

I listened to Full Contact Talksport last night. You can find it here:

http://talksport.com/rugby-union/full-contact-sunday-september-28th-140928116165

At around the 63 minute mark, Brian Moore and Hugo Southwell talk with Australian journalist Alex Broun and South African journalist called Ken, whose surname I couldn't catch.

Broun maintains that Steve Hansen spends the week before a test whingeing about the referee, and says the IRB should step in, because his "constant barrage of attacks on the ref" is "almost bringing the game into disrepute." The South African concurs.

I did think Hansen was out of order when he made some disrespectful comments about Australian team selection at the start of the Rugby Championship. I haven't been aware, however, of any of his remarks about referees being a problem. It's fairly common for all coaches these days to spend time "seeking clarity" and "hoping the officials will keep an eye on that". Is Hansen widely regarded as being worse?

What did surprise me a little were recent comments from New Zealand teams explaining that referees had apologised to them for getting decisions wrong. Now, perhaps all teams are getting these apologies but only New Zealand wants to make them public, or perhaps no-one else is getting apologies. Alternatively, referees aren't really apologizing for their decisions but New Zealand chooses to spin it that way.

None of those options seem particularly good for the sport, so I'd be happy for a bit more clarity on that from the governing body.

This is obviously going to get debate. I've just listened to it. It's pretty short. As a AB's fan I'd argue that he doesn't the boundary. That is he's no worse than many coaches I've heard in the past.

I'm not convinced he's on a par with the like of Clive Woodward, Eddie Jone, Bob Dwyer, PDV or Jake White for instance.I still think there is a fair amount of psychological play from all sides. Look at the build up to last weeks game in South Africa. Both sides essentially had a go at the legality of the opposition. I've never seen anything in the Southern Hemisphere to match media free for all that occurs when teams tour the UK.

I think Hansen has to address the refereeing. The reality is his side is generally penalised more than the opposition., Referreeing is subjective. When you tour the media huge and generally negative. I think there is a realisation that you have to counter that.

In terms of the Australian test in Sydney, the penalty count against the AB's was huge. There's a significant imbalance against the AB's in the penalty counts since the last world cup. There's a lot going on in a game, and refs choose what penalise. For instance the Argentinian defence in the weekend was very flat. Partially because they spent a fair amount of the game offside. All sides infringe, it's what happens. We all want consistency, but in reality we no way of knowing if referees are.

In my opinion, the AB's have a battle against media propaganda that paints them as cheats, playing noble local sides. A classic example of this is the feed coming out of the republic in the last 12 months that the AB's are blatant serial cheats and need to penalised and carded early in the game. How is a referee going to be objective in this climate.

Who' the referee for the match?

blackcanelion wrote:This is  obviously going to get debate. I've just listened to it. It's pretty short. As a AB's fan I'd argue that he doesn't the boundary. That is he's no worse than many coaches I've heard in the past.

I'm not convinced he's on a par with the like of Clive Woodward, Eddie Jone, Bob Dwyer, PDV or Jake White for instance.I still think there is a fair amount of psychological play from all sides. Look at the build up to last weeks game in South Africa. Both sides essentially had a go at the legality of the opposition. I've never seen anything in the Southern Hemisphere to match media free for all that occurs when teams tour the UK.

I think Hansen has to address the refereeing. The reality is his side is generally penalised more than the opposition., Referreeing is subjective. When you tour the media huge and generally negative. I think there is a realisation that you have to counter that.

In terms of the Australian test in Sydney, the penalty count against the AB's was huge. There's a significant imbalance against the AB's in the penalty counts since the last world cup. There's a lot going on in a game, and refs choose what penalise. For instance the Argentinian defence in the weekend was very flat. Partially because they spent a fair amount of the game offside. All sides infringe, it's what happens. We all want consistency, but in reality we no way of knowing if referees are.

In my opinion, the AB's have a battle against media propaganda that paints them as cheats, playing noble local sides. A classic example of this is the feed coming out of the republic in the last 12 months that the AB's are blatant serial cheats and need to penalised and carded early in the game. How is a referee going to be objective in this climate.

I don't remember seeing anything in our media about Hansen complaining, but then again journalist probably know about all of this stuff more as not everything goes into the local papers. I can also not remeber any local papers portraying that the All Blacks are cheats except a few years ago when NZ had a penalty count that was more than SA and AUS combind and had significantly less yellow cards than those two and that was really a digg at the referees. Whenever there was unhappiness in the SA camp it was mainly because of decisions that went against us in a All Black game that changed the game in a non contest, especially as there were methods to make sure if the correct decision was taken.

Also, I find it very strange how a team can suddenly stop infringing when threatend being carded by the ref. All referees give some quarter on some of the rules to speed up the game, and we sometimes applaud them for it, and they are not the same and these are affected by home crowed and a list of few other things, so I do understand why he would be making an issue of this. I think right over the world people complain.

FerN wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:This is  obviously going to get debate. I've just listened to it. It's pretty short. As a AB's fan I'd argue that he doesn't the boundary. That is he's no worse than many coaches I've heard in the past.

I'm not convinced he's on a par with the like of Clive Woodward, Eddie Jone, Bob Dwyer, PDV or Jake White for instance.I still think there is a fair amount of psychological play from all sides. Look at the build up to last weeks game in South Africa. Both sides essentially had a go at the legality of the opposition. I've never seen anything in the Southern Hemisphere to match media free for all that occurs when teams tour the UK.

I think Hansen has to address the refereeing. The reality is his side is generally penalised more than the opposition., Referreeing is subjective. When you tour the media huge and generally negative. I think there is a realisation that you have to counter that.

In terms of the Australian test in Sydney, the penalty count against the AB's was huge. There's a significant imbalance against the AB's in the penalty counts since the last world cup. There's a lot going on in a game, and refs choose what penalise. For instance the Argentinian defence in the weekend was very flat. Partially because they spent a fair amount of the game offside. All sides infringe, it's what happens. We all want consistency, but in reality we no way of knowing if referees are.

In my opinion, the AB's have a battle against media propaganda that paints them as cheats, playing noble local sides. A classic example of this is the feed coming out of the republic in the last 12 months that the AB's are blatant serial cheats and need to penalised and carded early in the game. How is a referee going to be objective in this climate.

I don't remember seeing anything in our media about Hansen complaining, but then again journalist probably know about all of this stuff more as not everything goes into the local papers.  I can also not remeber any local papers portraying that the All Blacks are cheats except a few years ago when NZ had a penalty count that was more than SA and AUS combind and had significantly less yellow cards than those two and that was really a digg at the referees.  Whenever there was unhappiness in the SA camp it was mainly because of decisions that went against us in a All Black game that changed the game in a non contest, especially as there were methods to make sure if the correct decision was taken.

Also, I find it very strange how a team can suddenly stop infringing when threatend being carded by the ref.  All referees give some quarter on some of the rules to speed up the game, and we sometimes applaud them for it, and they are not the same and these are affected by home crowed and a list of few other things, so I do understand why he would be making an issue of this.  I think right over the world people complain.

In terms of your first comment. The claims of All Blacks infringing and soft refereeing are pretty standard each season (http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/are-all-blacks-breakdown-cheats, http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/oct/23/rugby-world-cup-all-blacks-france, www.perthnow.com.au/sport/rugby/referee-jaco-peyper-gifted-the-all-blacks-another-bledisloe-cup-after-failed-night-with-the-whistle/story-fnhq65ja-1226703696736?nk=7281fa7916373f560357dc9133f6eadc, etc). More often than not it is less blatent but no less damaging, and relates infringing in the rucks. I doubt this year will be any different. The issue for me is that it's opinion that isn't based on any objective evidence, yet it's all pervasive. When sports science has tried to evaluate the issue they've found that sides infringe and it's nowhere near as clear cut.

In terms of your second point. I think your drawing a conclusion that may not be there. I.e. that the AB's are penalised and the infringing stops. What we can say is the penalty count may change during the course of the game. There are many ways that this can be interpreted.

Biltong wrote:Who' the referee for the match?

4 Oct 2014
TRC
South Africa v New Zealand
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Pascal Gauzere (FFR)
JP Doyle (RFU)
Graham Hughes (RFU)

http://www.irb.com/training/officialpanels/

My second point wasn't about the All Blacks at all, it was just based on general games. I made this statement to say I can see why Hansen might complain.

In the SArugbymag it states why Ewen McKenzie's that they cheat were flawed, which is written by John Mitchell who is from NZ. The perthnow one does sound a bit like a conspiracy, but how big is their following? Bigger than rugbyheaven?

Hey Biltong since Barnes is the ref you mind if we get Bryce Lawrence to run touch?

Such claims of ref bashing by Hansen are completely unfounded. Pre and post match Hansen has made a point of never blaming the ref. Seeking clarity is not the same as openly criticizing the ref.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Such claims of ref bashing by Hansen are completely unfounded. Pre and post match Hansen has made a point of never blaming the ref. Seeking clarity is not the same as openly criticizing the ref.

Its the modern way as openly criticise the ref and you get fined. Its the diplomatic way of saying his interpretation of the laws infuriated you.

Everyone does it. Personally I think the ref shouldn't even be mentioned. Rugby is a game of interpretations, you could call probably half the rulings in any game by any ref and say they were wrong.

Well he hasn't even be openly saying that fa. This is Sensationalist spreadsheet headlining with no substance behind it. Next we should have the IRB needs to rein in McCaw because Phil Kearns called him incessantly a rucking cheat.

It looks as though that Hansen is a little worried about this weekends game perhaps ? Also, I have now sympathy what so ever with the way the All Blacks are being reffed at the moment, for too long they have pushed the boundaries, put the referee in awkward situations, they NEVER do anything legally, but then again who does these days, but the All Blacks have been masters of conning the ref in the past, it is the same as when Samoa, Fiji or Tonga are playing, it's almost as though it is ok for these nations to decapitate players, or hit them late, because that's the way they are, Richie McCaw has been the best player in his position for years, but he has never been reffed fairly, and now that he is, the All Blacks do not like it.

That's ok Stephen, I'm sure the choice of ref for this weekend will appease you in that case.

whocares wrote:

Biltong wrote:Who' the referee for the match?

4 Oct 2014
TRC
South Africa v New Zealand
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Pascal Gauzere (FFR)  
JP Doyle (RFU)  
Graham Hughes (RFU)

http://www.irb.com/training/officialpanels/

Cheers mate, the All Blacks will now run for cover and Hansen will start his retorts

Your NAME is Eddie Jones and I claim my £10 what a load of bilge,this is going on for years
you bet Henrik Meyer isn`t doing it too.

Before every big match this sort of stuff goes on do you think Refs are blind,deaf,dumb and
stupid?In the early matches of the RC Argentina had massive domination Scrum time and
milked penalties.The media etc. got on to the fact it was down to the front row mafia Refs
picked it and Argentina especially penalized for Angle packing/boring in /Wedging.Or the
LH dropping a shoulder etc.

IF you watched the RC matches BOTH at the breakdowns and the number of illegalities
by ALL 4 sides that were picked or not this weekend.You see what the Ref has to contend
with.

Bodies flopping everywhere not rolling away,?or not being released before a fat load of
players fall on him a very fine line.

THIS should be the match of the season Barnes tends to be a "Homer" unlike this weekend
where bonus points sealed the RC a week early.BOTH sides will be going for the win SA at
home on the veldt ALWAYS favourites to win.

The 3/4Ns always used to be win your home games and pick up what you can away could
happen this year to.

It's a shame it's another dead rubber.

Could have been quite a game.

NZ vs SA at Ellis Park a dead rubber? Not on your nelly. This isn't about silverware.

No test is ever a dead rubber. Ever.

You've stopped supported SA though, so I guess it's a definitely a dead rubber to you biltong?

Dead rubber?forget RWC,the bledisloe,THIS is what its all about SA v NZ,IRB 2 v IRB 1
in SA with Wayne Barnes as REF.It`s War and may well be NZ`s first defeat since 2012.

I just wish it meant something rather than just a bit of pride. The RC has been a bit too cut and dry the last couple of seasons.

Yea for neutrals it does get a bit dull, I'm sure that for the countries involved it's exciting though

Tell any South African it's just a bit of pride. And envisage the media storm if NZ lose-something which is a distinct possibility.

disneychilly wrote:Tell any South African it's just a bit of pride. And envisage the media storm if NZ lose-something which is a distinct possibility.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, SA v NZ is always worth watching but it's just, from a neutral's perspective, it's a shame NZ have it in the bag early again.

Whatever you think about the quality of the 6Ns the topsy-turvy nature of the top sides' form means it normally goes down to the wire. Italy and Scotland usually sneak a win too, unlike Argentina.

Heck, even when England were the major force in the NH and beating SH sides regularly they still managed the good grace to blow several Grand Slams

FerN wrote:My second point wasn't about the All Blacks at all, it was just based on general games.  I made this statement to say I can see why Hansen might complain.

In the SArugbymag it states why Ewen McKenzie's that they cheat were flawed, which is written by John Mitchell who is from NZ.  The perthnow one does sound a bit like a conspiracy, but how big is their following?  Bigger than rugbyheaven?

Apologies. Miss read. Tired, jetlagged, and grouchy.

Two things come to mind on this one.

First: The shock of hearing a 'whingin'' Aussie sports journalist have a go. Highly irregular.
Second: The shock at hearing that the All Blacks have yet another gunslinger coach who shoots from the hip and doesn't give a fourX. Very unsettling.

I'm just shocked to hear that referees have allegedly been sending out personal apologies to NZ after games! Never heard the like of it before.

Engine#4 wrote:I'm just shocked to hear that referees have allegedly been sending out personal apologies to NZ after games! Never heard the like of it before.

It's called 'Bringing the Game into Disrepute'. "Sorry I almost caused you to lose that match there. Got carried away being fair with my calls. I know, I know...the gyme needs yis to be invincible Black Ninjas for the public image of Union and things. It won't happen again."

SecretFly wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:I'm just shocked to hear that referees have allegedly been sending out personal apologies to NZ after games! Never heard the like of it before.

It's called 'Bringing the Game into Disrepute'.  "Sorry I almost caused you to lose that match there.  Got carried away being fair with my calls.  I know, I know...the gyme needs yis to be invincible Black Ninjas for the public image of Union and things.  It won't happen again."

I think the Boks have deserved a few of those in recent times, never got them though.

I just think I referees start apologising privately then it runs the danger of the team receiving the apology might just a an subconscious leg up the next time the play under that referee.

The thing is it happens................ I mean the idea that coaches have difficulties with situations and they inform the refs that they weren't happy about some of his decisions.  And if the ref is honest and has looked over the footage and truly believes himself that the coach has a valid point, then the apologies come.

That happens everywhere - guaranteed.  SA coaches have talked to coaches and I'm sure received private apologies for ref slips ups. English coaches have gotten them  I certainly know Irish coaches have stated in the past that decisions were questioned and refs subsequently said "Yep, looking at it, I probably called that wrongly"

The only thing that elevates the story of a coach being apologised to by a ref for an error is when it's used as an ongoing narrative sometimes.  This idea that refs keep apologising to All Black coaches for almost letting them lose is a narrative - it becomes folklore stuff - the narrative is that it's cynical and it's considered cynical because of who the All Blacks are and how good they are.

But the truth is, refs apologising to disgruntled coaches happens probably quite a lot behind the scenes.  The media ain't interested in the small fry chat though - but the All Blacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - now that's fair dinkum Drawma! and the media love drawma.

I believe the apology was for the sin bin on Wyatt Crockett who was accused of a cynical offside when the replay showed his timing was immaculate.

Tough call for the ref, he got it wrong, and put his hand up. Nothing to see. Walk on.

Notably the spate of yellow cards handed to NZ abated immediately following - this does bother me. Refs swing like a pendulum, avoiding being type-cast and will generally avoid doing the thing they've just been criticised for. Which is wrong.

If referees are malleable to coaching media pressure then it actively encourages coaches to speak out in the media and that is a vicious cycle.

Steven Hansen on the upcoming Bledisloe test...

"I'm not too worried about what's happening off-field for them. It's our job to go over there and play some good rugby. That's what we are concentrating on and that's what we are going over there to do, put a bit of pressure on them on the field.''

Good to see Hansen not getting involved.

Gatland reckons the ABs will be hampered by our RWC pool. He may be right. But he may be wrong also. It's nice to see he has an opinion on the ABs chances so early in the build up. Also good to see he's keeping some whizz bang stuff up his sleeve to unleash on an unsuspecting rugby world come RWC time.

"Wales coach Warren Gatland has fired an early shot across the bow of the All Blacks' World Cup defence, suggesting the New Zealanders may be hampered by their weak pool."

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/10619312/Gatland-ABs-World-Cup-pool-not-tough-enough