The England three quarters dilemma

Well things haven't got any easier for us armchair selectors after last weekend and nor I suspect for SL and his team.

It would be hard to argue against the Bath back line, fleet of foot with an all court attacking game, as being the form backs of the AP. So should we throw out the encumbents (such as they are) for the in form guys? It would certainly be an "exciting"option. But would they beat the best in the world? The simplistic argument says if they have the best form then they must have the best chance, but sport is never so simple.

We were also reminded at the weekend that the ABs are beatable but there was a lot more bosh than cunning and guile about the team that beat them. I can't help remembering when England last beat the ABs. That day England just knocked them back and back and gave them no front foot or even 50/50 ball. The pack were suppurb to a man but I can't help feel that they benefited from having an extra flanker in the centres in the form of Barrit.

So how do you balance form against style. Should you try to out AB the ABs or play to different strengths and are those different strengths strong enough. Do you mix and match to get the best of both worlds or does that leave you with neither one nor the other.

Ford, Eastmond, JJ does sound exciting and OF, BB, Manu does sound boring, but if your life was on the line who would you trust?

Good luck Stuart

Personally I would go with Burrell and Manu; massive in defence but I would have Cips at 10. Both Burns and Ford have the ability to attack the defence and run a line, but Cips is the master of the delayed pass to either of his centres or the inside runner. Both Burrell and Manu are threats taking the flat ball and the likes of Brown/Foden or maybe Yarde or Wade taking an inside or floated pass between the centres is a potent attacking threat the likes of which we rarely see from England. France a few years ago were brilliant at it, but seem to have contracted a case of selective amnesia.

None of the three in question are great in defence, but Cips time in Aus and at Sale seems to have taught him to tackle, even if it is mainly buses. :whistle

Armchairexpert.

The Springbok tries on the weekend didn't come from bosh, but using space and going wide.

A couple were...Pollard's was about taking the ball to the line, so not only was it a lot of bosh, a lot of cunning and guile, good use of space, it was also individuals testing their individual skills and confidence with ball in hand, a mixture you don't usually get with the Bok's. Going forward, I'm not so sure Hansen knows how to approach the Boks anymore- that is also a first.

Usually what you see is what you get, very predictable stuff and all you need to do is withstand the physical affront and split the colossus into individuals with lesser skills on their own by going wide.

Most sides don't get past the first hurdle but the AB's seemed to be able to work that out.

Going forward, I'm not so sure but Meyers abilities to apply an open game, to identify and select the right individuals to play it are up there so will definitely be challenged as its not part of his resume. Nothing like a challenge though...

Yep, it is going to be interesting what he does next

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Personally I would go with Burrell and Manu; massive in defence but I would have Cips at 10. Both Burns and Ford have the ability to attack the defence and run a line, but Cips is the master of the delayed pass to either of his centres or the inside runner. Both Burrell and Manu are threats taking the flat ball and the likes of Brown/Foden or maybe Yarde or Wade taking an inside or floated pass between the centres is a potent attacking threat the likes of which we rarely see from England. France a few years ago were brilliant at it, but seem to have contracted a case of selective amnesia.

None of the three in question are great in defence, but Cips time in Aus and at Sale seems to have taught him to tackle, even if it is mainly buses. :whistle

How long is Tuilagi expected to be out? IF all are fit and firing then YES I'd happily see that back line;

Care, Cipriani, Wade, Burrell, Tuilagi, Yarde with Foden at 15, and Youngs, Ford and Eastmond/Watson on the bench

Id start with Brown and have Foden on the bench as he can cover Wing and Scrum Half in a emergency.

Also very tempting to start Ford over Farrell regardless of if Farrell is fit!

9.Care
10.Ford
11.Yarde
12.Eastmond
13.Tuilagi/Burrell can't split them
14.Nowell
15.Brown

For all the flouncy pace merchants we need solidity in the centre, otherwise they'll either go through us or we'll become too narrow again and they'll simply go round us. A solid midfield hopefully negates both scenarios.

Brown still isn't passing the ball and sadly hasn't hit the heights as he did this time last year.

I haven’t been drawn to Myler in any of the Northampton displays and so apart from charge down charlie, I'd go with the form halves Cipriani and Ford, in that order as both have managed the ball in play (when to give it to the backs / when to give it to the forwards) decision making successfully. And YES their goal kicking has to be better.

I feel sorry for Burns and 36....the irony is appalling.

A lot depends on the guys recovering from fitness. I can see Ford starting as he's been excellent so far and deserved a chance in the summer; he's continued that form. Don't think Twelvetrees has done anything to deserve getting dropped so far but Eastmond on the bench for me to get another chance at some point. Wade and Yarde are the pairing I think Lancaster wants to see and they are great going forward with questions on their defence. Can you really drop Tuilagi if fit; I't think so. Brown's form has been good even in a struggling team, can't see him getting dropped.

I'm struggling to find details on the various injuries; Farrell, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi???

And yes I doubt Brown will be dropped by Lancaster, however regardless of form, ultimately I don't believe he is able to provide the attacking threat or link play required to unlock the top sides.

Like I say, I doubt Lancaster will drop Brown and I am not confident he will manage the selection in terms of form, injury and the required balance between attack and defense.

I fear a selection of; Care, Farrell, Ashton, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, May, Brown.

Can't agree on brown, he's been outstanding since being brought in at full back. I'd like to see that backline except with Yarde and Wade in.

9 Care
10 Farrell (If he's fit and on form)
11 Yarde
12 Eastmond
13 Tuilagi
14 Just cant decide.
15 Brown

Im very concerned by Wades defence. Now before i get jumped on i dont want my wingers being defensive animals...but i want them solid. Wade has dropped some clangers...ie not collecting the ball over his own try line leading to a try etc.

Thats at club level...at international level he'll be ripped a new one...imagine against Savea or Habana.
Wade needs to show me more.

But the others all have weaknesses:
Nowell is solid alround, inproved his speed etc...but is he exciting and creative enough.
Watson...possibly the best of the lot potentially.
May...a player i really like...but the sideways running infuriates me...PLEASE RUN STRAIGHT!!!
Ashton...doesnt run the lines he used to...ie go looking for the ball.

Hopefully Wade will give you more this weekend, fingers crossed for a dry track or atleast not a monsoon.

May is for me the biggest disappointment. What a talent and yet is it already to late. Imagine if he were a Kiwi, i'm certain his early years coaching would have resolved his issues. Such a waste.

Instead of imature panic dictating the need to perform miracles everytime the ball comes to him, he needs to learn to realise the options, consider the simple play, and combine with his supporting team mates - run with the ball in both hands, learn how to touch the ball down without sliding on his knees.
Its just a classic case of poor coaching. I just hope somebody in the new Gloucester hierachy gets to him and straitens him out. Otherwise its a case of Balshaw mark II

Tuilagi would be found a space in any match 23 in the world. He's that good.

Burrell showed a worthy bench cover for 12-14 but Tuilagi is the man. He has to play and play at 13.

Wade, there is nothing I've seen that has ever said test class. Sure he can finish but his footwork is not up to scratch for a slight test calibre winger... I've never seen him do a Williams, Aplon, Robinson, Eastmond... who do it ever game.

I'd rather see Eastmond in the team but quite simply he can't play centre. SA, NZ would crush him, target him all day and it doesn't matter if you can tackle... if the attack thinks you are a weak spot they will smash your line until you crack. Not sure where that leaves him... you can make allowances for him at wing but I'm not sure if he has the pace? That's not a doubt, I simply don't know but there must be a reason why he never went to wing? Robinson himself actually had poor pitch length pace, amazing 0-30 mind but that's all he needed. Eastmond looks similar over 0-30 so not sure why they never tried him out there.

Never make the mistake of thinking, oh look at how the boks countered NZ, that's the way to go obviously.

Eastmond has got a good pass and is a very 'heads up' kind of player. I still think he'd make a great supersub as he can play across a lot of positions in the backs, but as you say he will get targetted. The problem with players like him who can produce some magic, is that they dont always do it (quite often because the circumstances dont arrive) and when they dont it seems as if everyone thinks they are useless.

I suppose the point is if you have Farrell at 10 you could switch them between 10 and 12 on defense.

What little I have seen of Wade is funnily enough similar. He is a much better distributor of the ball than you'd expect of a wing, and he does have good feet. People just want to know if he can hack it or not at int level, and he has been unlucky enough with injuries to not have a chance apart from a couple of runs vs a second string Arg.

What does Twelvetrees have that Farrell doesn't just for reference?

Can't England play

Care
Ford
Yarde
Farrell
Tuilagi
Next flavour of the month
Brown

Doe Twelvetrees have that much better a running game? Kicking wise England would improve, defence would stay about the same.

As i mentioned above...Wade is a concern for me...but until he is tried...we shall never know....something i have said often to everyones frustration about a certain Matt Garvey.

As for Manu, he must play at 13. The thing is we dont use him properly. We need some guile in there...a bit of intelligence to know when to have him smash it up the middle...or when to put him in the gap between two players. Someone like Cipriani, Ford, Eastmond can do that (and play the miss pass to the wings also) ...but as you mention they have their drawbacks also.

If you play a fully fit and on form Farrell at 10, with Manu at 13 you can cover Eastmond defensively at 12 i think. Farrell and Eastmond (and care) should have enough creativity.

I'd love to see someone get hold of Johnny May and tell him to focus on going forward and playing simple rugby. He could be electric!

And then we come to the other one....Twelvetrees.
He has the lot...big strong guy 6'3, 16st, he can pass brilliantly, runs well, a thunderous boot.....he was born to play 12. he should be controlling that backline.... Yet we've never seen him produce a display that has left us wanting to see more. We've never seen a performance that says....wow that was top class. And im not sure we will.

Even at club level i think Eastmond has produced better performances.

Burrell is another who has a lot...but he's looked ponderous at times this season...or maybe thats just some of the clips ive seen.

I think England should seriously look at Burgess very early on. Get him in the 6N and if it means throwing a few games then so be it. They have perhaps 12 games in 2015 pre world cup and for me... its enough to get him settled.

Its not wow, this guy is like SBW and look what he did, its simply that he is an awesome rugby player and lets not sprout that usual garbage... oh but can he ruck???

You ever heard someone say about Nonu, Tuilagi, Fourie, Smith.... yes I know they are amazing runners/tacklers... but can they ruck?

Kicking, well Brown has a massive and accurate boot and England haven't always played with a kicking 12.. think Tindall, Greenwood, Carling, Noon, Barritt etc etc

In the end he can tackle his life out, run the ball like a youthful Dillaglio on speed and has good hands. One thing I would say is that he would suit a more settled flyhalf like Ford rather than Farrell who doesn't look settled without help by his side.

I honestly think he's the missing link for England and am scared at what the can achieve if they utilise him properly.

You have a point. Tuilagi can ruck and it drives me crazy every time he does. Every time it feels like an opportunity wasted.

He should be waiting to get the ball when it comes out, when the ruck itself might create a little space for him to create mayhem.

But honestly, lets start the Burgess hysteria after he has played a few games for Bath. He could just as easily fail to get basics right and turn into a Denton*/ penalty machine.

* Denton is a great runner but never seems to pass or offload.

lostinwales wrote:You have a point. Tuilagi can ruck and it drives me crazy every time he does. Every time it feels like an opportunity wasted.

He should be waiting to get the ball when it comes out, when the ruck itself might create a little space for him to create mayhem.

But honestly, lets start the Burgess hysteria after he has played a few games for Bath. He could just as easily fail to get basics right and turn into a Denton*/ penalty machine.

* Denton is a great runner but never seems to pass or offload.

It is one of the stupidest things I ever see England do. Tuilagi clears a ruck and Tom Youngs receives the ball as first receiver. Night is day and day is night.

Big call on Burgess.

Ill judge him once he gets a few games under his belt for bath.
Sadly that may be at the expense of Eastmond.

The worst thing they can do is play him as a 6.

That is more difficult where rucking, lineouts, scrimmaging, mauling become more important. Keep him to the basics.

The RFU/Saracens wasted Andy Farrell who was already the wrong side of 30 when he joined and was already crocked. Spent a season splitting him between 12 and 6.

6 is too difficult to learn for him to become effective. You don't want to waste 2 years learning if he can do the dark arts when a) England have more than enough of those and b) he would be pretty unique as a 12 (in England at least).

Well Bath have alreadfy said they will play him in the centre.

I suspect you'll see 12 Eastmond 13 Burgess rolled out a couple of times as well as 12 Burgess 13 Joseph...though the Eastmond& Joseph combo has been pretty damn effective so far.

I like what Eastmond offers though as a player...a jinking running style...and little pop passing style. Id like to see him and Manu in the Ai's and i think we will. (though i do still believe Eastmond should have been a scrum half! )

But its important to have balance and have a solid defence though.

If only Eastmond was 6 foot or Twelvetrees actually played to the potential he has....

I'm going to chuck another name into the mix! Joseph is currently in the form of his life. He might be worth going back to, and as I recall he didnt disgrace himself at all when he went on tour to SA. Only injury and the fitness of Tuilagi kept him from coming back into the squad at the time.

Absolutely as i mentioned directly above about Joseph.

Its 12 that i think the problem is. We are fine at 13.

Sorry GF - missed that. Totally agree with you.

I think it was a Barritt - Joseph combo that played on the SA tour.

Eastmonds defence will continue to be a worry for England. For Bath his size is negated as we play a pretty narrow blitz pattern, which mean he gets up in the ball players before they have a chance to target him.

England however seem to play a sort of drift defence with someone sweeping up behind. I think this works fairly well with tacklers like Faz and Barritt in the side, but with say Ford and Eastmond it would just be asking for trouble, the big runners would be coming back on the inside ball all day.

I feel a bit for Joseph, he is on fire but in reality if Manu is fit then he has to play, he is England's only top class back who can really make things happen.

Looking at the opposition I would be reluctant to give Wade his debut against Savea. I think Rokoduguni might fare better in this one due to the physicality he brings. I would then want to see Wade start 2 tests and Roko 2 in the 4 Autumn Internationals and then just go with whoever looks best.

Not only am I not a fan of residency picks, but the fact is although Rokoduguni is playing his heart out, he is not as good as Wade.

Wade is winger of rare abaility. Yes he is still feeling his way back, yes bomber doesn't have a clue about back play, but trust me he's the best wing I've seen since Simpson-Daniel or Robinson.

In which case I would only want Wade to start V the ABs if he is 100% match fit and sharp. He is not currently up to full speed, but could be by then? Going forward he will no doubt be a huge asset, but defensively it will be worrying...but then again against Savea it is for everyone else too.

Also as things stand, based purely on form and fitness, I wouldn't pick Farrell either. Farrell offers strenghts that no one else in his position posesses. At his best, which sadly is not somthing we've seen since April/May, he offers the best defence, the best goal kicking as well as general solidity of position. Of course they're are others better at other things however you have to admit what he is best at he is better than anyone else.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm really hoping that this Sunday's game offers us opportunity to nail our selections and thus I'm hoping Wade will show his hand.

He was sub 2 weeks ago? Was this fitness or just squad rotation?

With regards to Twelvetrees...Does anyone have any news regards his injury - he came off in the first half against the tiggers?

As to his form, well its been ok but I just cannot understand why he is his clubs captain.

He needs to be far more selfish and hard nosed in his performance.

Will Lancaster select him? Well I guess that is primarily dependent on the state of his injury. Beyond that then yes I can see Lancaster wishing to select Farrell Twelvetrees and Tuilagi as his combination of choice. Which is all well and good but (and it all assumes they're fit?) we must then use their solidity to promote attacking players from wing and fall back, i.e Yarde, Foden/Watson and Wade. It could work.

As things stand form and injury wise I would prefer Cipriani with Burrell and Tuilagi and then Yarde, Foden/Wason and Wade. Cipriani has the skills to realise this centre combinations power play as well as vision to set free the pace out wide.

hugehandoff wrote:He was sub 2 weeks ago? Was this fitness or just squad rotation?

I thought rotation. Wasps have 4 wings available and they do appear atleast early season keen to rotate players. Given their selection and performance/result last weekend it will be interesting to see how long this rotation policy lasts?

kingelderfield wrote:Not only am I not a fan of residency picks, but the fact is although Rokoduguni is playing his heart out, he is not as good as Wade.

Wade is winger of rare abaility. Yes he is still feeling his way back, yes bomber doesn't have a clue about back play, but trust me he's the best wing I've seen since Simpson-Daniel or Robinson.

Not as good in attack granted, but a whole lot better in defence. There has to be a balance and I have always been a horses for course type. Pick a side to play the opposition albeit from a squad.

With regard to qualification, I believe Rokoduguni is still a serving serviceman in the British army. If he is willing to put his body/life on the line for this country, I don't give a monkey's cuss where he was born. He will get my vote every time over a player that elects to play for England because he has a Grandfather/mother born here.

We granted the Gurkha's citizenship/right of abode, this should apply across the whole spectrum of servicemen for have served in any of the arms of the British forces.

Wade was in a car crash which kept him out for a couple of weeks as I heard it.

Care
Farrell
Yarde
Barritt
Tuilagi
Rokodunguni
Foden

I rate barritt above all other 12's in the UK and it was the Farrell, barritt, tuilagi axis that beat the all blacks last time. Eastmond is too lightweight against the best, burrell, eastmond and twelvetress all go missing in defense at international level, twelve trees has been average in every England game and burrell has had glimpses of good stuff and glimpses of average stuff..seemed better at 13?

England however seem to play a sort of drift defence with someone sweeping up behind. I think this works fairly well with tacklers like Faz and Barritt in the side, but with say Ford and Eastmond it would just be asking for trouble, the big runners would be coming back on the inside ball all day.

Bathman, lets not talk about Englands defence. I really think we play the wrong tactics.

I rate barritt above all other 12's in the UK and it was the Farrell, barritt, tuilagi axis that beat the all blacks last time
Chris,

Ive been suggesting Barritt the last couple of weeks. Now offensively he is not great at all which is an issue...however with him there you can afford to play Cipriani or Ford or Burns as he gives massive defensive cover.

And those players can start and use Manu, Ashton etc properly.

A question that itself provokes a question, and one I seem to be asking alot currently, but does anyone know when Barritt will return from injury - is it long term or this weekend?

I see Tuilagi is named in Leicesters starting line up for this evening, though given tiggers recent luck I won't be surprised if he's pulled.

What about Burrell...a big boy at 12..but nowhere near the defensive soliditiy of Barritt...but you get more attacking wise.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Burrell...a big boy at 12..but nowhere near the defensive soliditiy of Barritt...but you get more attacking wise.

I'm a Northampton fan, so really shouldn't be saying this, but I don't get the Burrell hype. He's a good player, but not great. Rarely do I watch a game where I think he's in the a shout of MoM.

If you want an attacking 12, use Eastmond. If you want a defensive 12, use Barritt. If you want someone creative/someone to help out the fly half, use Twelvetrees. I think Burrell is a mix of all three, but not as good as any of them in their 'specialist department', so what you are left with is a good all-rounder, but not someone who is going to win matches.

Im going off his performances in the 6n Pledge...which was very good.

The Burrell/Manu axis is one which has yet to be given a chance and in theory it would offer a lot attacking wise while not giving away much in the size department.

I am a big fan of the delayed EPS and I think as a result many players have been really stepping up, but sadly not many of them play 12!

Geordie, on the defence, I do wonder why we seem to play such a different style from Sarries, given Faz seniors involvement.

I think Gustard is the one who should be in there Bathman.

It'll be interesting to see who Lancaster finally decides to pick for the games.

I wonder if Slade might be an outside shot for a run out at 12 off the bench at some point...maybe v Samoa.

Eastmond is player of the month i see....

I think you are right re. Gustard.

I just hope that SL can really pick on form, rather than injury decide who will play. Theres still this weekend plus some European rugby to go, it will be a miracle if all the England contenders come through unscathed.

Speaking of injuries, in an interview with Thorn, he said that prior to this injury the longest he had ever been out for was 4 weeks. That's in 22 seasons of top level rugby and he is not a bloke to shirk contact!

Saw the same Bathman, that is an insane record, what we would give for some of that for the England players

He said he still feels great after games, doesn't need to take painkillers etc and still loves the contact so we might be seeing him for a while yet

How many games has he played per season as opposed to those in the Prem..