Watched the game back,Biggar was awful.

I know Dan has great form for the Ospreys and i know he is a quality fly half but yesterday should be his last appearance in a Welsh shirt, he just can't play behind a pack that is on par or getting beat, he needs an armchair ride to play to his typical high standard.

Some players are just that way,it is no ones fault they just can't cut it at the highest level.

Yesterday Webb got flack for throwing two intercepts but he couldn't find his out half,Biggar was anonymous many times putting new boy Webb under lots of pressure,
then lets not get how deep Dan was standing!
We had Roberts North and Chuthbert, who would have been devastating running angles off flat attacking ball.

Who would you play instead? IMO he is the best you have got

Agreed and thats a big problem.

Dan's defence let him down for the try and a couple of kicks were off just after the try other than that he had a good game. It was a shame he got injured as we could have done with his penalty just as he went off. Bringing on Preistland was the end for Wales he has steered Wales to many last minute loses.

I thought he had a good game but likewise I don't think we can lay blame for loss with Priestland either.

Going back to the 'lying deep' bit that is one area that when he was on form (long time ago i Know) Priestland had the advantage and he played the game a lot flatter which benefitted Roberts style as well.

We are short on options there, Hook isn't the answer, Patchell is now out for 2 months, Tovey has been terrible for us at certain times this season and could only ever play at home because of passport issues . I would have called Williams up from Leicester if nothing lse to get him involved with squad and have a look at him.

Just because a player is playing well at club/region doesn't mean he's test standard. We have a number of positions where we lack any depth in test level players - 10 is one for sure. Biggar may be the best we have but how many Welsh fans would swap him for a Foley or Cooper? I would.

I am pretty surprised at the amount of criticism that both Biggar and Priestland are taking from you guys. I thought both played good intelligent rugby on Saturday.

If you are hunting for flaws in the welsh team then I would say miss passes, dropped balls and missed tackles are far more the cause.

Never thought I would be doing this, and it feels really unnatural but here goes. The tackle Biggar is getting stick for missing, was actually North's mistake. IMO he was North's man to tackle, but George was in the wrong position and Dan had to attempt it. Yes it was a missed tackle, but surely a miss tackle is better than a unattempted tackle?

Nonsense. Utter nonsense. The game was over the SECOND he left the field.
He bounced off a tackle, but made every other one, he kicked well at goal, and his offload in the build up to Webb's try was sublime under huge pressure.
You're going to judge him on the first game of the series?
AWJ missed a tackle too, last game in a Welsh shirt for him? Hibbard the penalty machine offered little, last game for him?
Faletau hasn't carried ball in about 5 tests, can him too?

We actually played a better brand of rugby yesterday than we have in a long time, but the personnel was wrong.

Biggar was our 10 when we won the 2012 6N. I would say he's international class.

Higher_Ground wrote:Biggar was our 10 when we won the 2012 6N. I would say he's international class.

But our pack was unreal the Ireland game aside, as mentioned if he is given a arm chair ride he is superb but in International rugby you rarely get an armchair ride.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:Biggar was our 10 when we won the 2012 6N. I would say he's international class.

But our pack was unreal the Ireland game aside, as mentioned if he is given a arm chair ride he is superb but in International rugby you rarely get an armchair ride.

Who is good playing behind a beaten pack? Who can play flat when their pack is not going forward?

Submachine wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:Biggar was our 10 when we won the 2012 6N. I would say he's international class.

But our pack was unreal the Ireland game aside, as mentioned if he is given a arm chair ride he is superb but in International rugby you rarely get an armchair ride.

Who is good playing behind a beaten pack? Who can play flat when their pack is not going forward?

Good point!
Listen to Jiffy talking about
Playing behind a pack on the back foot.

He didn't have his best game ever, but I firmly believe we could have closed the game out with his controlling influence as he grew into the game.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Never thought I would be doing this, and it feels really unnatural but here goes.  The tackle Biggar is getting stick for missing, was actually North's mistake.  IMO he was North's man to tackle, but George was in the wrong position and Dan had to attempt it.  Yes it was a missed tackle, but surely a miss tackle is better than a unattempted tackle?

SS,

You're not saying North missed a tackle then someone else gets slated for it are you? Mmmmmmmmmm now where have I heard that before Liam Williams in SA maybe.

Dont see AWJ or Cuthbert getting slated for both missing a first up tackle on Kuridrani

Bedford, George didn't miss the tackle, he just didn't attempt it/wrong position.  But that's what happens when players are played out of position.

IronMike, AWJ didn't miss that tackle, he was smashed off the tackle by Cuthbert.

Priestland actually played better for his half hour or so than Dan did for his 50 or so.

Pffffft. That is LITERALLY all I can muster in response to that.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Never thought I would be doing this, and it feels really unnatural but here goes.  The tackle Biggar is getting stick for missing, was actually North's mistake.  IMO he was North's man to tackle, but George was in the wrong position and Dan had to attempt it.  Yes it was a missed tackle, but surely a miss tackle is better than a unattempted tackle?

Fly halves shouldn't be required to tackle anyway. I'm sure John didn't do much of it or Bennett and can't remember Jiffy tackling at all. Jenks probably made a few mind.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Priestland actually played better for his half hour or so than Dan did for his 50 or so.

When Dan was on we scored 3 tries and he was involved in 2 of them

IronMike wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Priestland actually played better for his half hour or so than Dan did for his 50 or so.

When Dan was on we scored 3 tries and he was involved in 2 of them

His vision created Cuthberts try

Total nonsense that biggar was rubbish.ofload set up 1try, dummy kick drew defence in and he sent north on his way for another try. That missed
tackle was purely a targetted railroader. The guy smashed dan over. From the welsh tactics we are inviting the
opposition in our faces. No one would
have stopped that guy from that
position. Also dan controls with the
ospreys kicking for touch, sending them
back, yes they get lineout but at least he is on control of WHERE they get the
ball. The welsh players HAVE TO keep
ball in play. Its a tactic. Its not working.
As jerry guscott said ask the
management about that one !!!! Dan
does not play for wales as he does
weekly for the ospreys , not because its
a step up to international level, but
because the tactics are different. He also had a high tackle count for the tim
e he was on the pitch and more is being
asked of him
in defensive role by these tactics
than is asked of any other international 10.

Gavstar, are you not one of those that constantly runs Priestland into the ground for aimless kicking etc, yet you are now saying that Biggars aimless kicking is nothing to do with him? Funny how people can change their whole view point on things when it is one of their own that is getting treated poorly by other fans.

Spidery mate

There are a number of players and coaches who have unfairly attributed reputations on this forum with very little evidence to back up the reputation they are attributed.

Maes, if someone claims that a players is s&^t for playing one sort of game, even though it is the game plan chosen by the coaches. Then they should be told that they are being a hypocrite when they start blaming the game plan for another players poor (compared to his normally high standards) performance

I agree with you.

My point being though that I think fans derision is aimed at a lot of the wrong people and public support for certain players is misguided.

How many fans preferred James to Jenkins at loosehead, Webb for Phillips, Lydiate for Tipuric etc etc etc

How many of those calls by the fans were right compared to the faith of the coaches, very few in my opinion.

There was a ruck last saturday where Paul james acted scrum half and Lee was the nearest man and the two of them looked dumbfounded. That wouldnot have happened with Jenkins and Adam jones because they are more intelligent all round players.

We suffered for that lack of intelligence in simple situations last week.

SS, I think the difference, and it's a huge lose-9-games-in-a-row difference, is that Biggar can brush off a mistake and come back harder. Priestland shanks a kick in the 5th second of a match, and his chin is in his chest waiting for the ground to swallow him up for the next 80.
If you need evidence of this, you only need watch the 9 games in a row we lost where he looked like he would have rather been anywhere else. The management really should have picked up on this, but they didn't, and it wasn't fair on on Priestland.

Substitutions were key on Saturday, losing by 5 points, and Gatland still thinks that lydiate's chop tackles will put points on the board.

James was picked because Gatland sees him as a better scrummager, at the expense of Jenkin's all round play.
Halfpenny was picked because he's a safe pair of hands, although he offers nothing in attack.

Tipuric made the bench because Gatland is starting to weaken to public pressure. I ASSURE you he would have rather had Ryan Jones there as a steadying influence.

The team for New Zealand will be the steadiest side we can put out there, damage limitation.

For the record, Priestland at his best is an excellent, instinctive player who would walk into any if the home nations teams.
He is tormented by his own anxiety though, and rarely performs as he could.

Another thought is that Gatland is so hopelessly devoted to Priestland, that a decent run out against Fiji could very likely see Phillips and Priestland starting against NZ, with Biggar scrapping for a bench place with Hook.

HG fair comment, I think that injury will be the biggest factor in selection here on in. I would say you are being a bit harsh on some very good players, halfpenny in particular.

In my opinion and i think this is the thoughts management keep in the Vale too, Wales lost a game, it has no connection with the games last year or the year before...

It is a loss, there were positives and negatives and the goal is to win the RWC at twickenham in 12 months.

Focus now is on being a better team and a better squad all round

I agree Maesteg, the key question though, is; how will a team that hasn't been good enough so far, be good enough then?

I didn't mean to be unkind, I thought Lydiate did his job exceptionally well, but giving Tipuric 2.5 minutes at the end of the game was pointless. We made it too easy for them.

Halfpenny has set his own stall out now as being the last line of defense, and a goal kicker. Given that Biggar is probably as good a kicker (give or take 3-4 metres in range) I think it's reasonable to question his status as first name on the team sheet.

We need Nicky Smith and Scott Baldwin to be exposed as much as possible, if we're going to compete with the best, we need mobile,
Skilfull forwards - who have both shown they can do the basics too.

Higher_Ground wrote:I agree Maesteg, the key question though, is; how will a team that hasn't been good enough so far, be good enough then?

I didn't mean to be unkind, I thought Lydiate did his job exceptionally well, but giving Tipuric 2.5 minutes at the end of the game was pointless. We made it too easy for them.

Halfpenny has set his own stall out now as being the last line of defense, and a goal kicker. Given that Biggar is probably as good a kicker (give or take 3-4 metres in range) I think it's reasonable to question his status as first name on the team sheet.

We need Nicky Smith and Scott Baldwin to be exposed as much as possible, if we're going to compete with the best, we need mobile,
Skilfull forwards - who have both shown they can do the basics too.

Do you know what, I 100% agree with everything you have just said there.

Thank you my Lord.

Who has mentioned aimlesss kicking by biggar ?, most complaints have been about managment of the game when priestland was on, he was there to close it out. He didnt .

Gavstar

"Also dan controls with the
ospreys kicking for touch, sending them
back, yes they get lineout but at least he is on control of WHERE they get the
ball. The welsh players HAVE TO keep
ball in play. Its a tactic. Its not working."

Maybe it is just me but that reads as poor kicking to me, and you justifying it as it is a team tactic

One slightly short up and under, other than that, he kicked well I thought?
Liam Williams sent a couple of shockers downfield.

How is keeping the ball on the field poor kicking? Lets phrase it another way.the team tactic is keep the ball in play
.no touch finders. Biggar played to the plan as they all did. My point is that this tactic is not working.not poor kicking. Every other 10 controls using the touch line. The welsh tens and others on the field are under orders , keep it on the park. Read howley in the evening post tonight , he talks about hook and quote "it is important in a key decision making role like nine or ten to facilitate the team and not focus on the individual" he added " i am sure james's ability tobring the best out in the team is what we are looking forward to " the reporter also says howley emphasised the importance of the half backs playing within the team model. In other words do as your told or on your bike son !!!!! And yes one short up and under by biggar was all, rest were what was asked for.

Gav, lets not forget a kick off not reaching the ten metre mark, that's poor kicking by any stardards

Haha, how will he resurrect his career after that?

Joking aside, its too late and the management wont change now b4
World cup, but seriously the coaches are on mega bucks for what ? They
produce a plan A and thats it .players take the flack. In fairness to the priest when he had his brain melt seasons back he told one reporter i m doing what i m told , this is the game plan
Ok you could say he didnt execute the plan well at the time but it was, and sti
ll is a plan that never adapts. Never works? Never changes

Sadly thanks to that 6 year deal for Gatland, unless the WRU have a lotto win we are stuck with him until after the 2019 RWC. Which means we shall all need to deal with the typewriter play when the backs are allowed to hold onto the ball, and the needless booting into the opposition fullbacks hands every chance we get.