Aviva Premiership - Round 9

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Just 3 more rounds and every club will have played each other. The congestion in the middle of the table continues apace - a single win saw Leicester move from 9th to 5th, while at the top of the table we could well be seeing a clear gap between the Top 3 and the rest after this round.


Saturday 29th November 2014

Bath v Harlequins 19:45 BT Sport
Bath will be desperate to keep the pressure on the top two, and at home will not wish to lose. Having lost at the Stoop to Sale Quins will be desperate to get back to winning ways before a top 4 spot start to looks like a pipe-dream. Both sides are heavily affected by England call-ups - though have been helped by the early release of players. While Bath will have more men in the England 23, Quins will miss their absentees more and at times looked rudderless against a fired up Sale team. Quins will need the 8-10 axis to really fire and show leadership but how mush do the older statesmen, Easter and Evans, have in the tank?


Saturday 29th November 2014

Leicester v Wasps 15:00
This meeting of 5th v 6th will have both sides looking for the win that could move them closer to the Top 4 spot. However both teams were poor on the road last week where we saw Leicester limp past a dreadful London Welsh side while Wasps were well beaten in Devon. Both sides will see some international players returning this week and Leicester in particular will be bolstered by the returns of Ayerza up front and Goneva at the back. Leicester need to control the set piece, kick well and catch passes. Fail this and Wasps have the firepower to increase the Welford Rd frustration.

Exeter v Saracens 16:30
Huge clash for both sides. Saracens will not enjoy sitting 4th in the table and seeing Exeter two places ahead. This is a game they will feel they have to win - but they will need to start much better than they did against Northampton. In their last two fixtures Sarries have tried to play a conservative, attritional game - and struggled because they could not gain set-piece dominance. Againts Exeter who can play with real flair and for each other they simply have to dominate the home team pack otherwise they will return to Europe on the back of 3 weeks with no victory. Exeter have just lost once at home, in round 2, and will fully expect to send another bunch of "fancy dans" packing.


Sunday 30th November 2014

London Irish v Gloucester 13:00 BT Sport
Both sides lost last week, not unexpectedly, but London Irish will be more disappointed by the manner of the defeat. Gloucester should be strengthened by the return of Greg Laidlaw - but still have major problems in their backline with injuries and international call-ups. this is a prime time for London Irish to secure the win that would all but relegate London Welsh, but they need to start playing from the first minute - not leave everything to the last quarter when they score points that merely reduce the scoreboard pain.

London Welsh v Northampton 14:30
What's the point?

Newcastle v Sale 15:15 BT Sport
Hard one to call. After 10 months of defeats in all competitions, Falcons have picked up the winning bug. Sale are a solid team, good scavengers and a strong driving maul. Cipriani is playing well enough to guide the team around and they will feel they have what it takes to secure the win and return to the top half of the table. Sale have been vulnerable at scrum time however, missing Brookes and with issues at LH, falcons are probably not the side to take advantage here. Falcons cannot afford the plethora of missed goal kicks we have seen recently if they are to secure their 4th premiership win of the season.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:At least their scrum won't take a hit when Thacker comes on, thats a tough looking Tigers team.

If Gloucester play like they did at our place Irish should win. Their scrum was poor and thats a good Irish unit, slightly better looking Gloucester backline but I'm edging with Irish by 5.

I think Mr Wigglesworth had an awful lot to do with the scrum though and I'd expect a vastly better performance on Sunday purely down to the fact he's not involved!

My predictions
 Quins
 Wasps
 Exe
 LI
 Saints
 Sale

 To Win. IMO.

Welly wrote:Hughes and Johnson bench? Some impact but wonder why not start? Maybe to counter the likes of Cole, Ayerza, Gibson and Salvi at the breakdown?

 Wasps team to play Leicester Tigers on Saturday 29 November, kick off 3pm

15. Andrea Masi
14. Sailosi Tagicakibau
13. Alapati Leiua
12. Chris Bell (c)
11. Tom Varndell
10. Andy Goode
9. Joe Simpson
1. Simon McIntyre
2. Edd Shervington
3. Lorenzo Cittadini
4. Bradley Davies
5. Kearnan Myall
6. Ed Jackson
7. Guy Thompson
8. Sam Jones

16. Ashley Johnson
17. John Yapp
18. Jake Cooper-Woolley
19. James Cannon
20. Nathan Hughes
21. Charlie Davies
22. Alex Lozowski
23. Rob Miller

I sthat just two front rowers on the bench? I thought you had to have 3?

Law 3.5: http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=3.5&language=EN

Specifically 3.5 (g)

If a Union or match organiser decides to have 23 players nominated for a team there must be sufficient front row players to play at hooker, tight-head prop and loose-head prop who are suitably trained and experienced to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement is required in each front row position, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums. If a team is only able to nominate two suitably trained front row players then only 22 players may be nominated for the match.

It would appear that Ashley Johnson played hooker a couple of times in 2006.

Saracens team to face Exeter Chiefs:

15. Alex Goode; 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Duncan Taylor, 12. Chris Wyles, 11. David Strettle; 10. Charlie Hodgson, 9. Neil de Kock; 1. Rhys Gill, 2. Jamie George, 3. James Johnston, 4. Mouritz Botha, 5. Alistair Hargreaves ©, 6. Will Fraser, 7. Jacques Burger, 8. Ernst Joubert.

Replacements; 16. Brett Sharman, 17. Mako Vunipola, 18. Juan Figallo, 19. Maro Itoje, 20. Kelly Brown, 21. Ben Spencer, 22. Nick Tompkins, 23. Ben Ransom



Great to see MakoV on the comeback trail

No surprise Figallo is dropped after last week.

Sgt Pooly wrote: At least their scrum won't take a hit when Thacker comes on, thats a tough looking Tigers team.

We've not struggled at the scrum with him in there. He gave us a load in the loose as well. Youngs and Leo better show some form as Thacker is only 20 and is improving and bulking out nicely.

Interested to see how Pearce gets on at 8 he's a brute and looks it now he's ditched the mohawk and gone for the full Viking beard. Barbieri must be a little concerned he's only on the bench whilst the young guy Pearce is stepping up to the plate.

Figallo certainly needed rotating out. He's still got some recovering to do before he's anywhere close to back to his best.

Hard to bulk on his frame, he's too small for the front row. I'd argue that your scrum hasn't looked particularly strong with him in also, it should improve now though.

It will be monstrous this weekend because Ayerza is back. As soon as he came back from international dduty our scrum started going forward it'll be the same this weekend. Arguably the best loosehead in rugby.

Tom Youngs was told he was too small to be an international hooker and then he went on to play for England and the Lions. Thacker will never be massive nor a scrum weapon but he hooks his ball and does his job at the line out. He's still only 20. Wouldn't be surprised if Briggs is let go after the RWC with Thacker stepping up to third choice and Farnworth fourth choice.

Youngs is a monster compared to Thacker to be fair. He must have at least 2/3 stone on him??

Youngs has a stone and a half over Thacker according to the RFU website. They are basically the same height.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:At least their scrum won't take a hit when Thacker comes on, thats a tough looking Tigers team.

If Gloucester play like they did at our place Irish should win. Their scrum was poor and thats a good Irish unit, slightly better looking Gloucester backline but I'm edging with Irish by 5.

Haven't they got some players back this week though? Really really hoping for a win though ...

LondonTiger wrote:

Welly wrote:Hughes and Johnson bench? Some impact but wonder why not start? Maybe to counter the likes of Cole, Ayerza, Gibson and Salvi at the breakdown?

 Wasps team to play Leicester Tigers on Saturday 29 November, kick off 3pm

15. Andrea Masi
14. Sailosi Tagicakibau
13. Alapati Leiua
12. Chris Bell (c)
11. Tom Varndell
10. Andy Goode
9. Joe Simpson
1. Simon McIntyre
2. Edd Shervington
3. Lorenzo Cittadini
4. Bradley Davies
5. Kearnan Myall
6. Ed Jackson
7. Guy Thompson
8. Sam Jones

16. Ashley Johnson
17. John Yapp
18. Jake Cooper-Woolley
19. James Cannon
20. Nathan Hughes
21. Charlie Davies
22. Alex Lozowski
23. Rob Miller

I sthat just two front rowers on the bench? I thought you had to have 3?

Ash started out as a hooker and still keeps his hand in at training. His dad was a prop. He's played there before at least twice this season.

Crazy defence by Quins down to 12 men to let in no points. Let one try in when back up to 13. Will the floodgates open?

Quins pack has been destroyed, awful scrum effort.

Burgess ok so far, impressive clearing out.

I think I need to read the rules. I genuinely have no ideas what's going on in this Bath vs Quins game, particularly these uncontested mauls. Is it just me??

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think I need to read the rules. I genuinely have no ideas what's going on in this Bath vs Quins game, particularly these uncontested mauls. Is it just me??

Totally agree, it's been an absolute mess, mainly due to Quins not fronting up tbh.

Also I'm a big fan of Eastmond, for my money he should be playing in white tomorrow, but seems odd that he's Bath's designated touchline kicker tonight. Doesn't seem a big strength of his!

Probably to help his England cause.

Pretty awesome effort by the Bath pack tonight in the scrum, although Quins were pretty weak in that regard. Very happy with the 5 points there!

For those that know the rules please do correct me but my understanding is that Bath were committing countless penalties in the uncontested mauls. If the defensive side don't bind then the ball carrier must stay at the front. If the ball goes to the back they can't move as a unit as it is akin to the old flying wedge.

Either way excellent set piece play by Bath and Quins must be commended for their defence. Nevertheless Bath's execution was poor and they really should have thrashed Quins but I suppose you can't complain about a tbp win unless its against Welsh!

Bath did keep the all at front on the whole HKC.

I'm not an Eastmond fan, I think this is his level.

HongKongCherry wrote:For those that know the rules please do correct me but my understanding is that Bath were committing countless penalties in the uncontested mauls. If the defensive side don't bind then the ball carrier must stay at the front. If the ball goes to the back they can't move as a unit as it is akin to the old flying wedge.

This was my understanding, but where I'm unclear is what happens when the team trying to establish the maul grabs an opposition player involuntarily. Bath grabbed Robson a few times when he had no intension of participating. All a bit ridiculous really.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:For those that know the rules please do correct me but my understanding is that Bath were committing countless penalties in the uncontested mauls. If the defensive side don't bind then the ball carrier must stay at the front. If the ball goes to the back they can't move as a unit as it is akin to the old flying wedge.

This was my understanding, but where I'm unclear is what happens when the team trying to establish the maul grabs an opposition player involuntarily. Bath grabbed Robson a few times when he had no intension of participating. All a bit ridiculous really.

Didn't remember that happening until you just mentioned it. If there is no opposition involved, then it is not a maul. I never thought of what happens if the opposition is involuntarily involved. I presume it is then a maul. Don't think it matters whether someone wants to be involved, they either are involved or not. That's my guess.

Leicester win 18 -16

 Goes into 4th ATM Hard to believe, although Exe needs to stop Sarries from winning and getting a LBP.

 But considering how we have played 4th is a surprise.

Exeter have a 12 point lead at the minute so you might stay there.

Not sure Tigers actually went 4th at any point - they only equalled Sarries on league points and wins but had a worse PD?

Yeh your right Exe should have beaten them by more.

 Anyway still equal on point though.

 Now for Welsh to beat saints

Well I reckon we owe Luke Pearce a huge thank you. I personally felt he shoul dhave given us a penalty try for a head high challenge on Benjamin, who knocked on while trying to ground the ball. However that was far outweighed by the number of dodgy scrum penalties he gave our way.

Wasps can feel very unlucky to have lost their first Midlands Derby. Goode gave Williams a masterclass in tactical kicking, and we seemed to have no discernible attacking tactics. We ended up virtually playing rugby league style with first receiver trundling the ball up. Mele's 15 minutes in the second half were perhaps the worst I have ever seen from a Leicester player. Fannying about before trying to clear the kick off before being charged down and conceding the try  was his best moment. It got worse.

The thought of toulon coming to town next week fills me with dread.

If our defence can hold like it has been doing, Youngs playing like he can and Williams Kicking form the tee like he did we still have a shot next weekend.

Welly wrote:If our defence can hold like it has been doing, Youngs playing like he can and Williams Kicking form the tee like he did we still have a shot next weekend.

Well, take it as it comes. Hopefully you can snag the win at home and then all to play for on the road. Your brethren from just down the road in Northamptonshire are pulling for you.

LondonTiger wrote:Well I reckon we owe Luke Pearce a huge thank you. I personally felt he shoul dhave given us a penalty try for a head high challenge on Benjamin, who knocked on while trying to ground the ball. However that was far outweighed by the number of dodgy scrum penalties he gave our way.

Wasps can feel very unlucky to have lost their first Midlands Derby. Goode gave Williams a masterclass in tactical kicking, and we seemed to have no discernible attacking tactics. We ended up virtually playing rugby league style with first receiver trundling the ball up. Mele's 15 minutes in the second half were perhaps the worst I have ever seen from a Leicester player. Fannying about before trying to clear the kick off before being charged down and conceding the try  was his best moment. It got worse.

The thought of toulon coming to town next week fills me with dread.

From what I've seen of him as a ref so far I'm not impressed - I realise he's quite inexperienced but he seems to have a habit of guessing or reffing on reputation. He cost LI the win against Sarries earlier this season with some terrible decisions and missing a lot (3 points we really could have done with).

Awful game with a slight improvement in the 2nd half, but both sides were poor with Irish just being more poor! Nevertheless I'll take the points and hope we're vastly improved by the time Bath visit...

That's a terrible result for Irish, especially to get nothing out of the game. Oz, I promise I won't predict a win for you again.

Very poor - every time LI got into a good position with an attacking line-out on Glaws 5m line they muffed it, although I'd also say both Glaws tries had questionable bits in the build up.

Disappointed to lose that one, couldn't watch as working but we seemed to keep the lead for the majority of the game and then lose it near the end.

There seems to be some mini leagues forming now we're appraoching halfway through the season.

1 Northampton  
2 Bath
3 Exeter
-----------------
4 Saracens
5 Leicester
6 Sale
-----------------
7  Wasps
8  Gloucester
9  Harlequins
-----------------
10  Newcastle
11  London Irish
-----------------
12  London Welsh


I guess you'd expect to see Saracens maybe swap places with Exeter but I'm not sure I can see the league changing too much before the end of the season, maybe one mover per mini league.

To be honest Sale were unlucky to have a perfectly good try disallowed and a harsh penalty for a high tackle when Socino slipped ...

If Leicester can get their act into gear and hopefully the Toulon games will wake us up, and with the likes of Mulipola and Manu potentially being back for the Saints game I still feel we stand a good chance on jumping the top  3 somewhere.

Well played Exeter. If anyone gets our top 4 spot (and let's be realistic: they will) I hope it's you guys

Heaf wrote:Very poor - every time LI got into a good position with an attacking line-out on Glaws 5m line they muffed it, although I'd also say both Glaws tries had questionable bits in the build up.  

The only questionable thing I saw today was the ability and desire of some of our players. Utter garbage. Some of them have taken their waages under false pretences this week. The first time I noticed that Kieran Low was playing was when we we were taking him off. Paice's lineout work was appalling and we may as well not have put a back three out there the amount of times the ball actually got to them. Embarrassing.

Quins need some momentum from Europe, and need our Engalnd players back playing great rugby. Most of all, we need a plan b and to do the basics as well as we can

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Heaf wrote:Very poor - every time LI got into a good position with an attacking line-out on Glaws 5m line they muffed it, although I'd also say both Glaws tries had questionable bits in the build up.  

The only questionable thing I saw today was the ability and desire of some of our players.   Utter garbage.  Some of them have taken their waages under false pretences this week.  The first time I noticed that Kieran Low was playing was when we we were taking him off.  Paice's lineout work was appalling and we may as well not have put a back three out there the amount of times the ball actually got to them.  Embarrassing.

That too ... let's hope we get Scivs back for the next match as he at least seems to show some desire.  Re the questionable bits, from where I was sitting the last pass in Glaws first try looked like it went forwards slightly but I haven't been able to bring myself to watch the replay.  For the 2nd try in the build up Laidlaw put up a high ball and one of the Glaws players (13 I think) was miles offside and didn't retreat or wait to be run onside - that one I'm pretty sure of.   We would probably have still lost mind.

Heaf wrote:Very poor - every time LI got into a good position with an attacking line-out on Glaws 5m line they muffed it, although I'd also say both Glaws tries had questionable bits in the build up.  

What were the questionable bits?

Just posted - see above.

Ignore that qusetion! Can't comment re the offside but the pass was not forward.

OK fair enough - as I said I can't bear to watch the replay I was sitting slightly back from where the pass was made and didn't see the passers hands so momentum may have made it look forwards ...

They raised it in commentary but concurred it wasn't forward. Certainly close though

Glad to hear my one-eye isn't that bad

ChequeredJersey wrote:Quins need some momentum from Europe, and need our Engalnd players back playing great rugby. Most of all, we need a plan b and to do the basics as well as we can

To be honest all of that is a moo point if our pack bend over like they did against Bath. I know we missed Marker but Jesus I have never seen such a comprehensive man shaming at the set piece.

Is it coaches? Players just bit good enough? Or something else?

yappysnap wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Quins need some momentum from Europe, and need our Engalnd players back playing great rugby. Most of all, we need a plan b and to do the basics as well as we can

To be honest all of that is a moo point if our pack bend over like they did against Bath. I know we missed Marker but Jesus I have never seen such a comprehensive man shaming at the set piece.

Is it coaches? Players just bit good enough? Or something else?

Kind of don't think that's the problem. It was vs Bath (with Lambert ill and no Marler but still unacceptable) but the pack was great against Sale and the better part of the team in a few other matches. In the very start of the season they were the problem but recently it's been our backs and most of all our tactics