Drugs in Rugby

First topic message reminder :

A recent report suggests it is a bigger problem than I personally imagined it was.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2863758/Rugby-s-drug-problem-exposed-RFU-boss-admits-realise-s-issue-addressing-it.html

The Independent Report 1
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/paul-kimmage-rugby-has-to-face-up-to-its-growing-pains-30766512.html

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/paul-kimmage-dangerous-obsession-with-size-creates-bigger-need-for-answers-30785080.html

Craig Chalmers son banned.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/29764657

rodders wrote:I'm not criticising fly, for one thing I'm sure there are legal implications here so I'd expect nothing but silence or denials.

The old classic line is "I've never failed a test", rather than "I've never taken anything."

In sports its usually only the people who are caught that break rank, but paradoxically they are the people that are least trustworthy, similar to a criminal who cuts a deal for a lesser sentence by giving evidence.

Other than that, what goes on in the dressing room stays in the dressing room.

There's nothing legal in a generalised opinion that admitted ta percentage of rugby has probably dabbled in PEDs.  I'm not looking for GUILTY name sheets from ex-players.  Just wanting them to either admit a 'dogs on the street know' general admission that illegal methods of performance enhancing probably do exist (and I'm more focused on stamina levels than bulked up levels - stamina levels of fat/heavy men carrying oodles of weight in an increasingly physical and fast game!) at some percentage level in the game - or - just keep their mouths shut.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:I'm not criticising fly, for one thing I'm sure there are legal implications here so I'd expect nothing but silence or denials.

The old classic line is "I've never failed a test", rather than "I've never taken anything."

In sports its usually only the people who are caught that break rank, but paradoxically they are the people that are least trustworthy, similar to a criminal who cuts a deal for a lesser sentence by giving evidence.

Other than that, what goes on in the dressing room stays in the dressing room.

There's nothing legal in a generalised opinion that admitted ta percentage of rugby has probably dabbled in PEDs.  I'm not looking for GUILTY name sheets from ex-players.  Just wanting them to either admit a 'dogs on the street know' general admission that illegal methods of performance enhancing probably do exist (and I'm more focused on stamina levels than bulked up levels - stamina levels of fat/heavy men carrying oodles of weight in an increasingly physical and fast game!) at some percentage level in the game - or - just keep their mouths shut.

Mate, I think the problem in Rugby is that it requires speed, power, agility, and stamina.  I think the most important is recovery since our players beat the hell out of themselves.  Recovery is HGH territory.  I would expect that if anything is abused, it is that. And unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no validated test for HGH. Yet.

I think Wada do test for hGH but it is a difficult one as levels vary naturally in any one individual so it's not a simple "it's there so you took it" type of test. They look for the different isoforms and also for Biomarkers.

Didn't the NFL start testing for hGH this year?

doctor_grey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:I'm not criticising fly, for one thing I'm sure there are legal implications here so I'd expect nothing but silence or denials.

The old classic line is "I've never failed a test", rather than "I've never taken anything."

In sports its usually only the people who are caught that break rank, but paradoxically they are the people that are least trustworthy, similar to a criminal who cuts a deal for a lesser sentence by giving evidence.

Other than that, what goes on in the dressing room stays in the dressing room.

There's nothing legal in a generalised opinion that admitted ta percentage of rugby has probably dabbled in PEDs.  I'm not looking for GUILTY name sheets from ex-players.  Just wanting them to either admit a 'dogs on the street know' general admission that illegal methods of performance enhancing probably do exist (and I'm more focused on stamina levels than bulked up levels - stamina levels of fat/heavy men carrying oodles of weight in an increasingly physical and fast game!) at some percentage level in the game - or - just keep their mouths shut.

Mate, I think the problem in Rugby is that it requires speed, power, agility, and stamina.  I think the most important is recovery since our players beat the hell out of themselves.  Recovery is HGH territory.  I would expect that if anything is abused, it is that.  And unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no validated test for HGH.  Yet.  

Dr, Always read your posts with interest. No different today. Just a few questions really. aren't there a number of issues going on here?
1. Identifying which drugs are being used,
2. Having a defensible test that works,
3. Having a system and process that catches the drug whist it's in the system,
4. Ensuring that players are compliant (i.e. available, etc).

I'm not a medical practitioner, but it seems to me having followed the issues in cycling, athletics and weight lifting, that we are always behind the curve. if I remember collectedly one of the issues raised about rugby was the amount of out of season testing and the process used. Cycling is classic, one of the major breakthroughs came from border check of a car, not from drug testing. Same goes for Balco in the US, complaint from a competitor from memory. Isn't it a question that any of the above can fail and tests won't be found? Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect performance enhancing drugs to be widespread?

doctor_grey wrote:Mate, I think the problem in Rugby is that it requires speed, power, agility, and stamina.  I think the most important is recovery since our players beat the hell out of themselves.  Recovery is HGH territory.  I would expect that if anything is abused, it is that.  And unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no validated test for HGH.  Yet.  

I suspect that at the elite level, EPO and blood doping may also be quite widely used too. When you hear about how certain players sleeping in oxygen tents to aid recovery and boost endurance to explain their infatigible performances it's hard not to be suspicious.

At the lower levels, I think steroids and testosterone are the big issues both of which are easily obtained - the latter I know is pushed on clients in some high street commercial gyms and fitness clubs.

Good morning.
The NFL has recently started testing for human growth hormone.  The problem is the test methods are not able to detect any medium term or long term use.  Only if it is in the system for 2-3 days after use.   It is a blood test, so more intrusive on the players than the conventional urine tests.  As best I know, there have been only a fractional number of players in all sports combined who have actually tested positive over the past few years.  I do not have the actual data, so please take with a pinch of salt.

Blackcanelion, You hit the nail straight on.  The chemists inventing new drugs (modified drugs really) are always a step ahead of enforcement.  The enforcement agencies can't test for what has not yet been invented.  This is the big challenge.  First, a drug must be identified and isolated.  This usually comes from information gathered by investigators, either working for sporting or government agencies.  Then chemists need to develop a test method which is accurate and validated (defensible, as you correctly say).  This can take a long time and resources are not unlimited.  And a system and process for testing has to be negotiated with players, unions, or umbrella agencies.  A true long and winding road.

One unexpected and positive thing is the huge number of products available actually confuses many players who are developing a healthy scepticism about these products.  They are rightly worried that what is peddled as new PEDs will  now get them caught.  For many of these guys it drives them away from these materials.  A good thing indeed.  Here is a link to the WADA Prohibited substances list.  The number is huge, and growing.  How is a player supposed to see this and have a clue about the substance he/she is using?  

http://list.wada-ama.org/prohibited-all-times/prohibited-substances/

Rodders, I would tend to agree that at lower levels where teasting doesn't really exist or is lax that steroids are still the big issue.  It would seem many players at lower levels of any sport simply want to get bigger and stronger.

Cheers mate. Interesting.

Just came across this report from the RFU published last month.

It has some of the figures in there.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/anti-doping-report-for-rugby-released/

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/13/uk-anti-doping-chief-worried-by-teenage-steroid-abuse-and-rugby