Half way through the pool stages what do we think of the ERCC?

I am a feeling bit disappointed with the European tournaments this year and haven't felt engaged with them a much as with the old Heineken and Amlin.

I think much of my disillusionment is to do with the new TV contracts, I always prefer to watch live rugby but have really enjoyed Heineken weekends over the last decade with usually all 12 Heineken matches and several Amlin ones being on Sky. Admittedly this was pretty useless for those who don't have Sky, or don't have a local pub/club with it, but at least it was all in one place.

Now with there being less matches and with only half the Champions Cup being on Sky, and hardly any of the Challenge cup matches on TV at all, I have been much less engaged with the competition. This morning I was feeling quite cheerful about it being a rugby weekend but having looked at the TV schedule I can see that there is no European rugby on Sky tonight and that tomorrow the match between my own club, the blues, and London Irish isn't being televised .

It's always been a hit and miss thing with me as regards getting to see the games. Pubs, some streams, some TV. In that sense, this new Competition is no different.
No difference either in the sense of expectation and the greed for wins and the gritty snarls of envious 'well done' to the enemy sides So no difference there either - it's rugby and I'm emotionally involved.

Any differences that have the potential to appear will appear or be first noticed in about two or three years down the line.... and they'll potentially involve not just the ERCC but International too. So interesting and cautious times ahead.

For now....... I'm just interested in the results.... as usual.

Loving it, so much better than the HC.

Games not much difference between the usual ones. It feels like things are a bit tighter this year but that's just anecdotal.

I MUCH prefer BT coverage to Sky, but that's just personal preference.

As for yourself, so your team isn't in it and you're less interested? Not really a surprise, is it? It would interesting to find out what the other regional fans think (as they're in the same competition they were usually in before)

HammerofThunor wrote:
As for yourself, so your team isn't in it and you're less interested? Not really a surprise, is it?

A little sharp there Hammer if it's the original poster you're talking to.  He's simply saying he's disappointed that his side's game isn't being televised at all... not that he isn't interested because his side isn't in the Champions Cup. I'd assume he is using ERCC as a general allusion to both the Champions and Challenge bit

I miss the music

The splitting of the games between Sky and BT is a real pain in my opinion, and it makes planning watching things very awkward - either at home or in a pub. There also seem to be more games that just aren't televised at all any more. I think they're spreading it a bit thin. Overall quality of competition seems okay - but there is a worry things are drifting towards a handful of superclubs dominating in the coming years. I also can't understand why the clubs undermined their own 2nd tier competition by now allowing the winners of the Challenge Cup a place in the top tier the next year. Insane.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
As for yourself, so your team isn't in it and you're less interested? Not really a surprise, is it?

A little sharp there Hammer if it's the original poster you're talking to.  He's simply saying he's disappointed that his side's game isn't being televised at all... not that he isn't interested because his side isn't in the Champions Cup.  I'd assume he is using ERCC as a general allusion to both the Champions and Challenge bit

Wasn't meant sharp. The fella said he used to watch most of the 12 games so he clearly had an interest in the competition above just his own team. That interest had waned with the new format, which coincides with his team not being in the competition (Amlin only tended to have one game televised previously, I'm massively disappointed they have increase the number of 2nd tier games on). That's not surprising. It would be interesting to get a feel for what Edinburgh fans think as they're in the same position (other than TJ, we know he's refused to watch any Edinburgh games). It would also be interesting what some of the others, who are in the same tier of competition as before, think on it.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
As for yourself, so your team isn't in it and you're less interested? Not really a surprise, is it?

A little sharp there Hammer if it's the original poster you're talking to.  He's simply saying he's disappointed that his side's game isn't being televised at all... not that he isn't interested because his side isn't in the Champions Cup.  I'd assume he is using ERCC as a general allusion to both the Champions and Challenge bit

By extension that is a complaint about not being in the Champions Cup though as second tier games are rarely covered. From memory London Irish weren't televised in the UK once in the Amlin last year (think the away game to Stade was available on a French stream). Which is pretty standard.

Would be good if they had increased the coverage now it's over two channels as Hammer says, but really it's just business as usual on that front.

Started of really well but I think the lesser number of pools has made it too competitive in a way - with some really good teams as good as out of the running after 2 games, like Bath and Ulster, which is making a lot of dead rubber matches and we're only halfway in to the pool stages.  

Many of the pools could be wrapped up by next week and the post xmas games, which usually were the big ones, could be a bit of a damp squib.

Can see many of the French teams giving up the ghost already.

As has been said - the joint broadcasting hasn't worked - some of the coverage overlaps and pre-postmatch analysis has been poor. Less big games on a Friday with everything stacked mainly back to back on a saturday you don't get the same weekends worth.

It's a shambles to be honest.

From a personal point of view I guess I have taken a bit more of an interest as Bath are in the top comp. this year (at least until the pools are over!) but generally I don't think the actual tournament feels any different really. I mean yes you have to watch some games on a different channel but apart from that its mostly the same teams, same grounds and same players.

I wasn't moaning about the blues being in the challenge rather than the champions cup. We are in a period of rebuilding(ongoing rebuilding ) and the challenge competition is the right one for us to be in. I agree that not all the Amlin matches were televised but I think more were than there are this year.

But as I said, there has always been a HC match to watch on the group round weekends and tonight, for people who don't have BT Sport, there isn't one. The split across two network means that many of us will only get the opportunity to see half the 10 matches rather than all the 12matches... I cannot see how that isn't going to mean a much lower level of engagement with the competition for many people.

Newsilure wrote:I am a feeling bit disappointed with the European tournaments this year and haven't felt engaged with them a much as with the old Heineken and Amlin.

I think much of my disillusionment is to do with the new TV contracts, I always prefer to watch live rugby but have really enjoyed Heineken weekends over the last decade with usually all 12 Heineken matches and several Amlin ones being on Sky. Admittedly this was pretty useless for those who don't have Sky, or don't have a local pub/club with it, but at least it was all in one place.

Now with there being less matches and with only half the Champions Cup being on Sky, and hardly any of the Challenge cup matches on TV at all, I have been much less engaged with the competition. This morning I was feeling quite cheerful about it being a rugby weekend but having looked at the TV schedule I can see that there is no European rugby on Sky tonight and that tomorrow the match between my own club, the blues, and London Irish isn't being televised .

The only game with a Welsh team playing in the match that is being shown on any channel seems to be Ulster vs Scarlets on BT Sport.

Considering we used to be able to watch all the games. This is a poorer deal.

Rodders makes an excellent point - you get the feeling after this weekend the group stages will basically have little interest left - and most things will seem to be foregone conclusions. Not sure if this is our imagination, but seems odd.

The channel thing isn't as big a deal if you have Sky/BT permanently but some people have one or the other. I now have the option of buying a 24/weekend Sky pass (via NowTV) - which last year would have been great for H-Cup weekends, but now seems pointless for 1-2 games. I get BT Sport but trying to work out which games are on Sky/BT on the lead up is a pain (they don't make it all that obvious in the build up week). The idea of settling in down the pub to watch 3-4 games in a day is now pretty much out the window.

I think by tearing the thing in half, BT and Sky have each ended up with less than a half a "product" - neither of which are now worth much to the consumer. Unless you already have both services, what rugby fan in their right mind is going to shell out to subscribe to a service for the chance to watch a random 3 of 10 possible games a weekend?

How long have they made the current arrangement for?

What disappoints me is, as there are now 2 main broadcasters, they should be able to cover more games in the Challenge Cup, eg, tonights game between Dragons and Bucharest could have been covered as Sky has no games on, over this weekend there are only 2 games from that competition covered, if that is the case for every weekend, why not let Channels like S4C or Alba cover games involving teams from their own country, IMO it is an opportunity lost.
We know there were teething problems in getting this competition up and running, I hope things can be ironed out before next years start up.

new broadcaster (BeIn) now in France and only one game left on free to air TV (2 if you add the challenge cup game). clearly not indeal but guess similar to the UK where you need 2 subscriptions .

It's mostly the same. It does seem like there'll be a lot more dead rubber matches in the last two games. But you can't put that down to the new format unless it becomes a pattern after a few seasons.

I think I remember whocares saying here that the only reason the HC took off in France is because it was free to air. And he probably wouldn't be watching it this year now that it's on subscription TV. The two broadcasters in Ireland and the UK is also bad for us viewers obviously. And that would be my main worry about the new tournament. I think viewership will be down and the year on year growth in popularity of the European Cup since it started as the HC will be stunted. They don't even bother broadcasting many games from the second tier.

I think combining the two tiers into one competition and making it free to air would have many merits in terms of growing the popularity of the game. This reduced size competition spread across subscription TV channels suits the narrow self interests of the "elite" teams and their bank accounts, without showing much vision for the broader good of the game.

indeed FR, Rugby cannot afford to go the soccer route (champion's league) as it hasnt reach the right size in terms of popularity and marketability anyway. long term I dont think this will work. right now I have the choice between subscribing to C+ (Top14) and Bein (european rugby). no way am getting both.

I keep on thinking of Cricket. As a kid I'd watch a lot of test matches on TV. Nowadays I dont have sky sport (nor have I ever) and my boys will have little or no understanding of that game at all. There is a real long term price associated with jumping into bed with subscription TV companies

Worked well for football though. Popularity went through the roof with sky.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:The splitting of the games between Sky and BT is a real pain in my opinion, and it makes planning watching things very awkward - either at home or in a pub.  There also seem to be more games that just aren't televised at all any more.  I think they're spreading it a bit thin.

All Champions Cup games are shown now, which wasn't the case in the past.  I think it was last year when most of Exeter's matches weren't shown for instance

One of the big benefits to me for having the games split over two broadcasters is that there are far fewer matches on the red button, a max of one a week so far.  For those of us who play, watch live or are otherwise out at the weekend, this means that we can record more multiple matches that are on at the same time.

If you're unsure what matches are going to be shown on which broadcasters the details can be found on the offical site or Penfro's handy guide on this forum (though he's got an error in this week's, the Saints v Treviso game is on BTSport2 and the Toulon v Tigers game on BTSport1, not the red button).

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures_champions_cup.php?includeref=21924&season=2014-2015&round=4

https://www.606v2.com/t6249-penfro-s-live-tv-guide-updated-friday-12-12-2014-1346

maestegmafia wrote:

Newsilure wrote:I am a feeling bit disappointed with the European tournaments this year and haven't felt engaged with them a much as with the old Heineken and Amlin.

I think much of my disillusionment is to do with the new TV contracts, I always prefer to watch live rugby but have really enjoyed Heineken weekends over the last decade with usually all 12 Heineken matches and several Amlin ones being on Sky. Admittedly this was pretty useless for those who don't have Sky, or don't have a local pub/club with it, but at least it was all in one place.

Now with there being less matches and with only half the Champions Cup being on Sky, and hardly any of the Challenge cup matches on TV at all, I have been much less engaged with the competition. This morning I was feeling quite cheerful about it being a rugby weekend but having looked at the TV schedule I can see that there is no European rugby on Sky tonight and that tomorrow the match between my own club, the blues, and London Irish isn't being televised .

The only game with a Welsh team playing in the match that is being shown on any channel seems to be Ulster vs Scarlets on BT Sport.

Considering we used to be able to watch all the games. This is a poorer deal.

Ospreys is on the sky red button. Just give me the option when setting Saracens Sale to record.

FecklessRogue wrote:It's mostly the same. It does seem like there'll be a lot more dead rubber matches in the last two games. But you can't put that down to the new format unless it becomes a pattern after a few seasons.

I think I remember whocares saying here that the only reason the HC took off in France is because it was free to air. And he probably wouldn't be watching it this year now that it's on subscription TV. The two broadcasters in Ireland and the UK is also bad for us viewers obviously. And that would be my main worry about the new tournament. I think viewership will be down and the year on year growth in popularity of the European Cup since it started as the HC will be stunted. They don't even bother broadcasting many games from the second tier.

I think combining the two tiers into one competition and making it free to air would have many merits in terms of growing the popularity of the game. This reduced size competition spread across subscription TV channels suits the narrow self interests of the "elite" teams and their bank accounts, without showing much vision for the broader good of the game.

A combined competition would have a lot more uneven and dead rubber games in the pool stages.  The 3 leagues add up to 38 teams, which is only divisible by +ve integers 2 & 19, so you'd have to retain Bucarest & Rovigo, which would gives you 8 pools of 5.  That's two additional weeks to the season and unless you only have one team going through from each pool you'll have to add a third.  You could have 10 pools of 4, but that would still mean one additional week and employing the best runner-up system, which would be notably skewed by the inclusion of Bucarest & Rovigo.

Any which way you cut it though, the distribution of the quality and poor sides amongst the pools will mean you have a lot of really uncompetitive games, with most pools foregone conclusions and resulting low interest from a large number of the clubs.  The uncompetitive nature would be made worse because the bottom ranked sides won't put their best teams out in a competition in which they know from the outset they have no hope of even getting out of their pool.

That low number of quality games in the pool stages would not draw in big new audiences, be less marketable and make FTA more likely.  With less channel space at its disposal and more games in the same competition to cover FTA wouldn't be able to show much of the competion though, which would again decrease its worth.  With less money and less quality games in the competition you'd have to question how high up on the majority of teams' priorities it would be, most of the French sides don't seem particularly bothered with it as it is.

I agree that with some here that many of the matches I have seen so far seem similar to the Heineken Cup matches with no real op off.  A European Cup competition by any other name, perhaps.

I think the questions about non-competitive matches is a good one. Unfortunately, the Italian teams have usually been near-automatic wins for the other teams in their pools.  And there have always been a few other teams for whom this level of Rugby is a bridge too far.  I don't know if there is a good answer how to strike the right balance.  If more teams are let in then the number of teams which are not competitive will increase.  Reducing the number of teams further also does not feel like the right answer. 

The tv issue is also frustrating.  Living in America, we no longer get the Euro Rugby competition on TV.  It is shown on ESPN3, which is ESPN's internet streaming service.  The quality is quite good and can be plugged into a tv, but a lot of agravation which should not be necessary.  Back in UK, seeing the matches on two pay providers seems like a temporary compromise.  But at the moment it does disinfranchise a lot of people.  And is not the way forwards, unless the alternative is one pay service and one over-the-air tv station.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Newsilure wrote:I am a feeling bit disappointed with the European tournaments this year and haven't felt engaged with them a much as with the old Heineken and Amlin.

I think much of my disillusionment is to do with the new TV contracts, I always prefer to watch live rugby but have really enjoyed Heineken weekends over the last decade with usually all 12 Heineken matches and several Amlin ones being on Sky. Admittedly this was pretty useless for those who don't have Sky, or don't have a local pub/club with it, but at least it was all in one place.

Now with there being less matches and with only half the Champions Cup being on Sky, and hardly any of the Challenge cup matches on TV at all, I have been much less engaged with the competition. This morning I was feeling quite cheerful about it being a rugby weekend but having looked at the TV schedule I can see that there is no European rugby on Sky tonight and that tomorrow the match between my own club, the blues, and London Irish isn't being televised .

The only game with a Welsh team playing in the match that is being shown on any channel seems to be Ulster vs Scarlets on BT Sport.

Considering we used to be able to watch all the games. This is a poorer deal.

Ospreys is on the sky red button.  Just give me the option when setting Saracens Sale to record.

I'll check that out thanks...

[quote="HammerofThunor"]

I MUCH prefer BT coverage to Sky, but that's just personal preference.

Hammer,

I agree then againb I never had sky sports so BT is better as I have that and can watch the games

I think the main problem with the tournaments is that many people don't know how to read TV listings or use their remote controls properly.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I miss the music

Before players come out on the pitch? This is the same from what i can hear.

I would say there is not much difference when you watch a game BUT there are fewer games which makes the competition worse in my books.

Also enjoyed getting some coverage from the 2nd tier competition, now there is none apart from the odd game so a step backward in that regard too.

The Challenge Cup has nothing riding on it no qualification etc so some teams are clearly not bothering with it.

bedfordwelsh wrote:The Challenge Cup has nothing riding on it no qualification etc so some teams are clearly not bothering with it.

Just because there's no Champions Cup qualification from winning it doesn't mean there's nothing riding on it. If you go by that logic there's no real 'point' winning any tournament.

Just winning it should be a point in itself.

Also, you would think that a side good enough to win the Challenge Cup would be good enough to qualify from their league anyway.

TV companies are irrelevant to me. Its all about the rugby and its been good so far. Only two unbeaten teams going into this weekend, Groups still wide open, entertaining matches.

Yes, I'm enjoying it too - as TJ says it is still compelling viewing.

Cyril wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:The Challenge Cup has nothing riding on it no qualification etc so some teams are clearly not bothering with it.

Just because there's no Champions Cup qualification from winning it doesn't mean there's nothing riding on it. If you go by that logic there's no real 'point' winning any tournament.

Just winning it should be a point in itself.

Also, you would think that a side good enough to win the Challenge Cup would be good enough to qualify from their league anyway.

Cyril,

I never said it doesn't mean anything I said some teams are not bothering with it, which they aren't. Also its about priorities these days do you say risk injury by playing a 1st choice player in these games that carry no euro qualification or do you save them for the respective league and try and gain automatic qualification for europe.

Not sure whether this is actually the case but an example is with a busy Xmas derby period the Blues didn't rish Warburton back last week as maybe they are thinking they want him fresh for the league games over Xmas to try and maximise league points etc etc.

Watching Saints-Treviso is not really an advert for expanding the competition to more teams. 38-0 at 50 minutes. I am happy Saints are winning, but I am not sure these types of matches are what this tournament is all about (or maybe what this tournament ought to be about). Clearly it is a good thing if Italian Rugby can really take off. The more better teams the better. But it is a hard process and not sure this helps things.

Treviso aren't the team they where a couple of seasons ago. The reasons for that have already been documented on here a couple of times.

You should know given how many ex Treviso players are now playing in the AP.

Agree, mate. I know it is a shame Treviso appear to be going backwards because the point to have Italian teams involved is to improve Italian Rugby.

Treviso might be a shambles but Saints were very, very good today.

That level of performance would have smashed some much better sides.

Still like the HC Refs massively biased toward teams deemed "more important" still the same teams playing each other.
Pretty crap overall.

Cyril wrote:Treviso might be a shambles but Saints were very, very good today.

That level of performance would have smashed some much better sides.

Are you a Saints fan today Cyril?

How can you possibly prefer the BT coverage?. Unbelievablely biased commentary.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How can you possibly prefer the BT coverage?. Unbelievablely biased commentary.

So true i thought Barnes and co were bad on SKY but BT are balls deep in the English teams.

Also the camera work has been diabolical for both the Leinster Quins games. They really don't have anything on Sky imo.

I've not noticed a huge difference in the coverage to be honest but I can see that BT Sport is probably a little less polished in some ways. I prefer it too though - change is good.

Sky desperately need some new personnel, between that douche anchor Alex and the sheer awfulness of Dewi, Barnes, Miles, Quinnell and the once OK but now very 'sky' Greenwood their coverage is pretty much unwatchable. To make it worse they wheel Woodward in for internationals. Their one shining beacon is Lynagh, but since his health issues he seems to be getting less work.

doctor_grey wrote:Watching Saints-Treviso is not really an advert for expanding the competition to more teams.  38-0 at 50 minutes.  I am happy Saints are winning, but I am not sure these types of matches are what this tournament is all about (or maybe what this tournament ought to be about). Clearly it is a good thing if Italian Rugby can really take off.  The more better teams the better.  But it is a hard process and not sure this helps things.  

On a side note, do you know if there is a story behind Saints eschewing more contemporary try celebrations for the traditional handshake. I noticed it in the highlights for Burrell's try last weekend and thought it might just have been something they had done for him that day because as the commentators mentioned it was his birthday, but with 11 tries today it became clear they do it everytime now.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How can you possibly prefer the BT coverage?. Unbelievablely biased commentary.

When its the only option you have it has to be better than not watching it at all.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How can you possibly prefer the BT coverage?. Unbelievablely biased commentary.

So true i thought Barnes and co were bad on SKY but BT are balls deep in the English teams.

And sky are balls deep in Irish teams

It's only natural that the BT commentary should be so anglo-centric given they also cover the AP.

It was funny listening to Dayglo apologising for it though when he admitted that he denied what his own eyes were seeing.

nathan wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How can you possibly prefer the BT coverage?. Unbelievablely biased commentary.

So true i thought Barnes and co were bad on SKY but BT are balls deep in the English teams.

And sky are balls deep in Irish teams

No just Barnes with Leinster and Munster they can take or leave Ulster and Con.