Knock out

SecretFly wrote:I know the present always looks like it was always that way but that's always only an optical illusion.  A person who died only 5 years ago, if they came back to life now they'd see major changes in society, in sport etc.  We don't see it just like we don't appreciate ourselves growing older until we see a bloody wedding photo and ask: "who the hell is that ugly asswhole on the extreme left??"

But the truth is that players are bigger (musclewise), are mostly talller, are stronger, are faster, are boosted by the very best technology and diets and training methods (and maybe other stuff for a few )
But that does make the questions about 'player safety' more apparent than perhaps even 5 years ago.  

Even the styles of play demanded by...demanding...coaches adds to the concern.  
This desire to charge at speed headlong into two or three heavy opponents, this desire to be absolutely animal in the breakdown area, and constantly expecting to come out of those collisions ok, and do that for a full 80 without worrying about cumulative minute head injuries piling on top of each other - well, concerns do grow as the game itself seems to become more and more violently explosive for consistently longer periods through an 80 minute game.

lostinwales wrote:Halfpenny was lying motionless but from what you could see he never looked out of it. Given what was hurt was his neck you'd imagine he was keeping still for very good reason.

After the 'kick' North was just lying face first in the dirt.

World Rugby has requested a full report from the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) following an apparent head impact sustained by Wales wing George North in the second half of Friday night’s RBS 6 Nations match between Wales and England at the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff.

North, who sustained the impact in the 61st minute of the match remained on the field and, having undertaken an initial review of the broadcast footage, World Rugby is seeking to establish from the WRU whether all concussion management protocols were appropriately followed.

Concussion management and education is at the heart of World Rugby’s player welfare strategy designed to protect players at all levels of the game and promote the very highest standards of education, coaching and medical care. #RecogniseAndRemove

Griff wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Griff, I now you are playing devils advocate and thank you for doing so, as it prompts debate, but nobody is suggesting that every player with a head knock should go off and not come back.  As I recall, Halfpenny never looked 'out of it' or as if he had lost consciousness at any point, and therefore after being properly asessed I would say he should be fine to continue.  Similarly, Biggar looked to be 'all there', just bleeding heavily after his bump.

North was entirely different.  He looked like a punch drunk boxer at times, and hit the deck on the second occasion without putting his arms out to break his fall which is a clear sign of a loss of consciousness.  In those circumstances, he has to be removed from the field for his own safety.

If I can liken it to boxing, if a fighter is getting repeatedly punched in a corner, but is bobbing around trying to evade the blows, or throwing punches back, or even just managing to keep his arms up to defend himself, the referee will let it continue.  The minute his arms go down and he clearly does not have the thought processes in place to be able to defend himself the referee steps in and ends the contest.  That second example was George North last night.  He could not save himeslef whne he was falling because his brain would not tell his arms to move so break his fall.  At that point it's game over.  No ifs, buts or maybes.  Player safety is paramount, and the IRB or whatever they are now called, need to clear on this.

I've highlighted some things above that makes the debate interesting, and I think this is the point that others were making. Halfpenny was lying motionless for a while if I remember correctly. Because he didn't look knocked out it is fine? Slippery slope. Also, what does properly assessed mean? We've already argued that these tests are not fit for purpose and cannot detect the unknown. Biggar 'looked' groggy to me when it happened. But what do I know? Again, looking ok or looking groggy - is that a good, objective measure?

And yes, I'm enjoying the role as Devils advocate! I just do not know the answer so I'm asking the questions. But I do know that we cannot go on how a player looks or seems. That's dangerous ground! So do we need to take a blanket approach? And how do we do that in a contact sport with no head protection as its likely that every player on the pitch will knock their head at some point during the game.

Exiledinborders wrote:Wales say they did not know North was knocked out. That might be true. If so, this is something the TMO could usefully do. We all saw on TV that North was out for a few seconds. The TMO should be able to inform the ref and require that the player leaves the pitch. The player should leave permanently not for ten minutes.

thomh wrote:Even if he wasn't out cold, it was a second head injury in one game. Maybe the medics didn't pass it on and Gatland really didn't know. Either way someone doesn't come out of it well.

Griff wrote:

thomh wrote:Even if he wasn't out cold, it was a second head injury in one game. Maybe the medics didn't pass it on and Gatland really didn't know. Either way someone doesn't come out of it well.

I can't be certain (going on memory) but I'm not sure that North was treated for the second one was he?  I thought he just sort of fell over, looking like he blacked out on his feet, and then got up and carried on. Could be very wrong though.

Griff wrote:But treated for the second one? I thought (again, memory isn't great) that he just got up???

thomh wrote:

Griff wrote:But treated for the second one? I thought (again, memory isn't great) that he just got up???

On iPlayer you can see someone attending to him on the ground in the aftermath.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Griff, I now you are playing devils advocate and thank you for doing so, as it prompts debate, but nobody is suggesting that every player with a head knock should go off and not come back.  As I recall, Halfpenny never looked 'out of it' or as if he had lost consciousness at any point, and therefore after being properly asessed I would say he should be fine to continue.  Similarly, Biggar looked to be 'all there', just bleeding heavily after his bump.

North was entirely different.  He looked like a punch drunk boxer at times, and hit the deck on the second occasion without putting his arms out to break his fall which is a clear sign of a loss of consciousness.  In those circumstances, he has to be removed from the field for his own safety.

If I can liken it to boxing, if a fighter is getting repeatedly punched in a corner, but is bobbing around trying to evade the blows, or throwing punches back, or even just managing to keep his arms up to defend himself, the referee will let it continue.  The minute his arms go down and he clearly does not have the thought processes in place to be able to defend himself the referee steps in and ends the contest.  That second example was George North last night.  He could not save himeslef whne he was falling because his brain would not tell his arms to move so break his fall.  At that point it's game over.  No ifs, buts or maybes.  Player safety is paramount, and the IRB or whatever they are now called, need to clear on this.

Gwlad wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Griff, I now you are playing devils advocate and thank you for doing so, as it prompts debate, but nobody is suggesting that every player with a head knock should go off and not come back.  As I recall, Halfpenny never looked 'out of it' or as if he had lost consciousness at any point, and therefore after being properly asessed I would say he should be fine to continue.  Similarly, Biggar looked to be 'all there', just bleeding heavily after his bump.

North was entirely different.  He looked like a punch drunk boxer at times, and hit the deck on the second occasion without putting his arms out to break his fall which is a clear sign of a loss of consciousness.  In those circumstances, he has to be removed from the field for his own safety.

If I can liken it to boxing, if a fighter is getting repeatedly punched in a corner, but is bobbing around trying to evade the blows, or throwing punches back, or even just managing to keep his arms up to defend himself, the referee will let it continue.  The minute his arms go down and he clearly does not have the thought processes in place to be able to defend himself the referee steps in and ends the contest.  That second example was George North last night.  He could not save himeslef whne he was falling because his brain would not tell his arms to move so break his fall.  At that point it's game over.  No ifs, buts or maybes.  Player safety is paramount, and the IRB or whatever they are now called, need to clear on this.

Are you medically qualified to make this statement? North put 1 arm out. Was half his brain concussed?

MrsP wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:...North was entirely different.  He looked like a punch drunk boxer at times, and hit the deck on the second occasion without putting his arms out to break his fall which is a clear sign of a loss of consciousness.  In those circumstances, he has to be removed from the field for his own safety...

Are you medically qualified to make this statement? North put 1 arm out. Was half his brain concussed?

Can you find a medically qualified opinion that doubts that North was KO'd in that incident?

MrsP wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Griff, I now you are playing devils advocate and thank you for doing so, as it prompts debate, but nobody is suggesting that every player with a head knock should go off and not come back.  As I recall, Halfpenny never looked 'out of it' or as if he had lost consciousness at any point, and therefore after being properly asessed I would say he should be fine to continue.  Similarly, Biggar looked to be 'all there', just bleeding heavily after his bump.

North was entirely different.  He looked like a punch drunk boxer at times, and hit the deck on the second occasion without putting his arms out to break his fall which is a clear sign of a loss of consciousness.  In those circumstances, he has to be removed from the field for his own safety.

If I can liken it to boxing, if a fighter is getting repeatedly punched in a corner, but is bobbing around trying to evade the blows, or throwing punches back, or even just managing to keep his arms up to defend himself, the referee will let it continue.  The minute his arms go down and he clearly does not have the thought processes in place to be able to defend himself the referee steps in and ends the contest.  That second example was George North last night.  He could not save himeslef whne he was falling because his brain would not tell his arms to move so break his fall.  At that point it's game over.  No ifs, buts or maybes.  Player safety is paramount, and the IRB or whatever they are now called, need to clear on this.

Are you medically qualified to make this statement? North put 1 arm out. Was half his brain concussed?

Can you find a medically qualified opinion that doubts that North was KO'd in that incident?

chris_501 wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg

This was the Florian Fritz incident from last season. If this doesn't suggest pressure on doctors to get players back onto the pitch, I don't know what does.

Munchkin wrote:I think it's obvious that North was out cold. He should never have been allowed to continue playing.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think it's obvious that North was out cold. He should never have been allowed to continue playing.

It was from the replay. If the Welsh Medical staff missed it and North was showing no signs I could kind of understand it. Although considering he had been checked once and recieved another blow they perhaps should have been more careful. But once the replay surfaced, and I do not believe for one second that no-one in the Welsh team saw that, he should have been off.

nathan wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think it's obvious that North was out cold. He should never have been allowed to continue playing.

It was from the replay. If the Welsh Medical staff missed it and North was showing no signs I could kind of understand it. Although considering he had been checked once and recieved another blow they perhaps should have been more careful. But once the replay surfaced, and I do not believe for one second that no-one in the Welsh team saw that, he should have been off.

In this day and age, with all the high tech equipment being used to monitor a players performance. i find it hard to believe they missed it by accident. They have that many screens where the coaches sit and there were that many replays shown afterwards that even if they did miss it directly afterwards they should of acted and took him off when play resumed.

MrsP wrote:One of the English players goes straight to North to check if he okay. Even the look on his face when he is next shown on screen suggests that all was not okay.

I don't want to seem melodramatic about this but there are very very good reasons why this is literally vitally important.

People die from Second Impact Syndrome. They go from seeming a bit off to dead with a second blow to the head. It does not even have to be anywhere near as hard a blow as North suffered.

North should not have been allowed back on the pitch after the first incident.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

MrsP wrote:One of the English players goes straight to North to check if he okay. Even the look on his face when he is next shown on screen suggests that all was not okay.

I don't want to seem melodramatic about this but there are very very good reasons why this is literally vitally important.

People die from Second Impact Syndrome. They go from seeming a bit off to dead with a second blow to the head. It does not even have to be anywhere near as hard a blow as North suffered.

North should not have been allowed back on the pitch after the first incident.

In fairness you are comparing probably smaller less robust people than George North on what is one of the rarest forms of death, it would take an almighty blow to North's head to cause SIS and one that would cause catastrophic injuries anyway.

I've always been split on this debate, I remember Moody being knocked out twice against France in the 2007 semi final I believe, much of what made him a good player was his resillience, take that away and you change the player.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I suppose the main argument against neutral doctors is that they are obviously fear the worst in every case, because what's in it for them if they let a player go back on and there's a chance he's concussed? Where would the liability lie?

The problem with this is that it will go too far the other way - players won't be allowed back on at all, even if there is really nothing wrong with them. This will inevitably lead to players hiding their symptoms from the doctor, with the obvious worries that would come with that.

I'm not saying this is my viewpoint, just something that would need considered.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

MrsP wrote:One of the English players goes straight to North to check if he okay. Even the look on his face when he is next shown on screen suggests that all was not okay.

I don't want to seem melodramatic about this but there are very very good reasons why this is literally vitally important.

People die from Second Impact Syndrome. They go from seeming a bit off to dead with a second blow to the head. It does not even have to be anywhere near as hard a blow as North suffered.

North should not have been allowed back on the pitch after the first incident.

In fairness you are comparing probably smaller less robust people than George North on what is one of the rarest forms of death, it would take an almighty blow to North's head to cause SIS and one that would cause catastrophic injuries anyway.

I've always been split on this debate, I remember Moody being knocked out twice against France in the 2007 semi final I believe, much of what made him a good player was his resillience, take that away and you change the player.

MrsP wrote:TJ.

I would think that a doctor who knows the player is in a much better position to notice subtle changes which might indicate a potential head injury.

MrsP wrote:If a tick sheet approach is being taken this will not help.

I maintain that the pitchside testing was completely inappropriate in the first incident with North.