Vote on Ruck Clearout

Does this incident merit a yellow, red, or no card.

https://vine.co/v/OPVVH5Hd3g3

Only just saw this - horrendous

Red card all the way

I have no problem with that, play on. Refs should favor teams with the ball more in the modern game i don't want to see defenses prevailing, if that means tough rucking so be it.

VinceWLB wrote:I have no problem with that, play on. Refs should favor teams with the ball more in the modern game i don't want to see defenses prevailing, if that means tough rucking so be it.

So charging in at full tilt to shoulder charge a players neck is ok..... wow....

I thought he was very lucky at the time and surprised he not been cited

Jenkins managed to stay on his feet in the process, i have no problem with that, players should be supporting their own weight when contesting the ball.

That was a typical clearout, just because Hogg happen to be pretty lightweight makes it look worse that it really was.

VinceWLB wrote:I have no problem with that, play on. Refs should favor teams with the ball more in the modern game i don't want to see defenses prevailing, if that means tough rucking so be it.

Considering what Adam Jones said after what Bakkies did to him for the Lions a few years ago and the numerous times it has happened since, absolutely nothing.

It looked bad at the time and worse the more you watch it.

It is one of those that is policed only sporadically, you can go through a whole season and never see anyone carded or even blown for it, then all of a sudden in a big game a player with a reputation does it, the crowd goes bezonkers and the referee steps in, penalises, cards, citings, bans, justice for Bakkies all over again.

Oh whoopdy doo, another thread where the Scottish are bashing the Welsh heathens of rugby again, ok we get the message, the Welsh are ruining rugby for the whole world.

It should be a penalty IMO. It is foul play.

I think that it should be a penalty too but no card initially.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh whoopdy doo, another thread where the Scottish are bashing the Welsh heathens of rugby again, ok we get the message, the Welsh are ruining rugby for the whole world.

I blame Gatland.

While it looks bad and is bad it is a very common part of the game. Doesn't make it right, of course. But you see similar things at most rucks. It's very difficult to clear a player with his hands on/near the ball if you run in with your arms out. As soon as the arms out then you need to effectively clear out with your chest as you take your shoulder out of contention. Could you push the player? Pretty sure that's illegal too.

I bet if I watched the game back we'd seem more than just Jenkins doing this on this one occasion. Both sides, I'm confident, cleared out on this way a number of times.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh whoopdy doo, another thread where the Scottish are bashing the Welsh heathens of rugby again, ok we get the message, the Welsh are ruining rugby for the whole world.

At least it gives the PRL a bit of time to go home, have a shower and get a change of clothes before they're back in the spotlight again

Griff wrote:While it looks bad and is bad it is a very common part of the game. Doesn't make it right, of course. But you see similar things at most rucks. It's very difficult to clear a player with his hands on/near the ball if you run in with your arms out. As soon as the arms out then you need to effectively clear out with your chest as you take your shoulder out of contention. Could you push the player? Pretty sure that's illegal too.

I bet if I watched the game back we'd seem more than just Jenkins doing this on this one occasion. Both sides, I'm confident, cleared out on this way a number of times.

He should have used the can opener or the crocodile roll on him instead.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1CW1G1s2DU

Griff wrote:While it looks bad and is bad it is a very common part of the game. Doesn't make it right, of course. But you see similar things at most rucks. It's very difficult to clear a player with his hands on/near the ball if you run in with your arms out. As soon as the arms out then you need to effectively clear out with your chest as you take your shoulder out of contention. Could you push the player? Pretty sure that's illegal too.

I bet if I watched the game back we'd seem more than just Jenkins doing this on this one occasion. Both sides, I'm confident, cleared out on this way a number of times.

I would agree that all teams do it and it should not be a free for all

This one does look terrible and the fact that is is such a shoulder charge on the neck area is why I though a straight red

GunsGerms wrote:

Griff wrote:While it looks bad and is bad it is a very common part of the game. Doesn't make it right, of course. But you see similar things at most rucks. It's very difficult to clear a player with his hands on/near the ball if you run in with your arms out. As soon as the arms out then you need to effectively clear out with your chest as you take your shoulder out of contention. Could you push the player? Pretty sure that's illegal too.

I bet if I watched the game back we'd seem more than just Jenkins doing this on this one occasion. Both sides, I'm confident, cleared out on this way a number of times.

He should have used the can opener or the crocodile roll on him instead.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1CW1G1s2DU

How many knees i have seen go with these can opener techniques...

It looks bad, but it's not a South African doing it; therefore no card. On a serious note - if this sort of clearout starts being policed strictly how will it affect the contest for the ball?

It is bad and it happens a lot from all teams not just the welsh. I suspect it's going to take an injury before it's cracked down on though.

For me, it's the failure to use the arms that warrants the red card, and not the speed or intensity of the hit on their own.

nathan wrote:It is bad and it happens a lot from all teams not just the welsh. I suspect it's going to take an injury before it's cracked down on though.

True and i'm reminded again of the Neath scrum half, Gareth Jones.
Tragic and sobering....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/3392180/Rugby-player-died-after-breaking-neck-in-ruck.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7457473.stm

IanBru wrote:For me, it's the failure to use the arms that warrants the red card, and not the speed or intensity of the hit on their own.

Agree with this. Had Jenkins used the arms it would have been OK, nothing wrong with the intensity and impact. It's the fact he has driven his shoulder in with impetus.

I suppose the best way to judge a clear out is this: If the player clearing out did the same in open play instead of a ruck, would it be acceptable?

I hate this part of the game. Few red cards wouldn't hurt.

Until a few years ago I didn't realise using the arms in the clearout was even still a rule. This incident is bad but the real problem is that it's almost never penalised. Probably seen it once this season.

There is another side to this coin that nobody has discussed.

With the trend these days of players not supporting their weight and either lying on top of another player, or simply just attempting to seal the ball off it is almost impossible to clean someone out of the ruck by getting underneath them.

Hence the illegal hit into the ruck.

The no arms it is not the cause, the general play at the ruck is.

Biltong wrote:There is another side to this coin that nobody has discussed.

With the trend these days of players not supporting their weight and either lying on top of another player, or simply just attempting to seal the ball off it is almost impossible to clean someone out of the ruck by getting underneath them.

Hence the illegal hit into the ruck.

The no arms it is not the cause, the general play at the ruck is.

This. The no arms clear out is reckless and needs to be stamped out, but the refereeing of 'not supporting your own body weight' is so inconsistently refereed. I think Jackson gave a couple on Sunday, but then just let loads go. Add it to the ever lengthening list of things that need dealing with.

Should have been a yellow at least.
Off his feet, blatant shoulder charge. Sickening.

I would just ban Wales from competing in the ruck, jumping for the high ball or making any tackles in the 6 nations. Then everyone will be happy

Never noticed this at the time, but I have to say that is an absolutely fantastic clear out. Definitely not a card. I'm also of the opinion that Bakkies Botha's clear out Adam Jones was not an offence or worthy of a ban.

Alive555, if you got to around the 60 minute mark you will see Liam Williams accidently step on a grass hopper that happened to find his way into Murrayfield. Worth of a ban? There's your next thread

Steffan wrote:I would just ban Wales from competing in the ruck, jumping for the high ball or making any tackles in the 6 nations. Then everyone will be happy

Now that really does add to the debate, doesn't it?

Biltong wrote:

Steffan wrote:I would just ban Wales from competing in the ruck, jumping for the high ball or making any tackles in the 6 nations. Then everyone will be happy

Now that really does add to the debate, doesn't it?

I didn't realise this was a debate. I thought it was a 'Look how dirty Wales are' thread

Steffan wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Steffan wrote:I would just ban Wales from competing in the ruck, jumping for the high ball or making any tackles in the 6 nations. Then everyone will be happy

Now that really does add to the debate, doesn't it?

I didn't realise this was a debate. I thought it was a 'Look how dirty Wales are' thread

Then I am happy to have enlightened you

Steffan wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Steffan wrote:I would just ban Wales from competing in the ruck, jumping for the high ball or making any tackles in the 6 nations. Then everyone will be happy

Now that really does add to the debate, doesn't it?

I didn't realise this was a debate. I thought it was a 'Look how dirty Wales are' thread

You thought wrong Steff, so start again.

I think Melonhead should have been sent off

Not sure who it was but on one of the many threads today someone posted 3 gifs showing similar incidents.
One with Halfpenny getting questionably hit in the ruck.
A sickening one of a Samoan clearly going out of his way to smash Biggar in the head with his shoulder.
And Cian Healy flying through the ruck in Paris last year headbutting an opponent in the process.

Don't remember any action being taken in each instance, but the last 2 in particular were definitely worthy of a card.
Time for World Rugby to stand up & enforce the laws to stop players catapulting themselves into oneanother like fleshy torpedoes.

GLove39 wrote:Not sure who it was but on one of the many threads today someone posted 3 gifs showing similar incidents.
One with Halfpenny getting questionably hit in the ruck.
A sickening one of a Samoan clearly going out of his way to smash Biggar in the head with his shoulder.
And Cian Healy flying through the ruck in Paris last year headbutting an opponent in the process.

Don't remember any action being taken in each instance, but the last 2 in particular were definitely worthy of a card.
Time for World Rugby to stand up & enforce the laws to stop players catapulting themselves into oneanother like fleshy torpedoes.

I'm not one for point scoring on these message boards, or for whinging about an anti-Welsh conspiracy (although the vitriol seems very Welsh-centric at the moment ), BUT I remember the Samoa game and the hit on Biggar. Biggar played no more part in the game, going off bloodied and dazed. I also remember us welsh 'whinging' about it, calling for a card and citing but being told to stop being cry babies and to toughen up, 'it's a mans game', etc. I just find that the consensus on these boards seems to change with the wind. It's seems to follow no logic. Go figure, as my American friend says!

Personally I couldnt see anything wrong with it, no penalty, no card.

But reading some of the threads at the moment, I get the feeling that some posters on here would like to players yellow carded for running fast.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Personally I couldnt see anything wrong with it, no penalty, no card.

But reading some of the threads at the moment, I get the feeling that some posters on here would like to players yellow carded for running fast.

Or jumping!

whocares wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Personally I couldnt see anything wrong with it, no penalty, no card.

But reading some of the threads at the moment, I get the feeling that some posters on here would like to players yellow carded for running fast.

Or jumping!

Yeah, these posts are idiotic fair play.

aucklandlaurie wrote:I get the feeling that some posters on here would like to players yellow carded for running fast.

Do you seriously think that running fast should be allowed???

It's dangerous. Lets look at example of it. I will use Wales as an example. Because Wales are usually the best team to use as an example of dangerous play over and over again...

When Liam Williams set up Rhys Webb's try against Scotland he was running fast. I mean...the guy could have:

a) Tripped over his own feel and hurt himself falling

b) Ran into someone hurting both of them

c) Forgot to stop running after he had passed it and ran into the barrier hurting himself while in the process falling into the crowd and landing on the lap of some Welsh girl wearing a daffodil hat and a 'Scrum and get me' T shirt causing £10.95 worth of alcohol spillage and breaking her iphone5 which she was using to upload a stadium selfie shot onto Facebook

Yet the ref did nothing

whocares wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Personally I couldnt see anything wrong with it, no penalty, no card.

But reading some of the threads at the moment, I get the feeling that some posters on here would like to players yellow carded for running fast.

Or jumping!

Or lifting!

Cardiff Dave wrote:Or lifting!

Yes. If a player is lifting another player and he doesn't keep his back straight and his knees bent like they show you in an office health and safety video then that player should automatically get a 6 match ban

Steffan wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:I get the feeling that some posters on here would like to players yellow carded for running fast.

Do you seriously think that running fast should be allowed???

It's dangerous. Lets look at example of it. I will use Wales as an example. Because Wales are usually the best team to use as an example of dangerous play over and over again...

When Liam Williams set up Rhys Webb's try against Scotland he was running fast. I mean...the guy could have:

a) Tripped over his own feel and hurt himself falling

b) Ran into someone hurting both of them

c) Forgot to stop running after he had passed it and ran into the barrier hurting himself while in the process falling into the crowd and landing on the lap of some Welsh girl wearing a daffodil hat and a 'Scrum and get me' T shirt causing £10.95 worth of alcohol spillage and breaking her iphone5 which she was using to upload a stadium selfie shot onto Facebook

Yet the ref did nothing

You're right. Not enough focus is put on health and safety basic principles.
Maybe players should be reminded of those by performing the following before the anthems :
https://youtu.be/AjPau5QYtYs

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Or lifting!

Yes. If a player is lifting another player and he doesn't keep his back straight and his knees bent like they show you in an office health and safety video then that player should automatically get a 6 match ban

Agreed and to make a mark in the 22, both feet have to be on the ground. Like it used to be.

We must just all buy Tutus

Steffan you are very health and Safety alert.

During the Wales England game they showed one of those Welsh heifers and she looked like she had been drinking wine out of a trough.

Clearly is a foul under the laws though.

GLove39 wrote:
Time for World Rugby to stand up & enforce the laws to stop players catapulting themselves into oneanother like fleshy torpedoes.