Scarlets v Munster

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How much of the 9m Euros they owe the IRFU have they paid back?

SecretFly wrote:
You earned nothing.  Unless you're very special and have an as yet undeclared vested interest in the financials of Scarlets - then nope, you haven't earned a penny.  You're a fan.  You pay your money and watch the movie.  

BTW................ how much of the car do you own?  Or the house?  Government didn't take their cut?  You don't pay your tax on your car and you pretty quickly can't drive it.  Government don't tell you where to park it and where not to drive it? Government don't take a slice of anything you add to it or put into it to make it move?

Don't give me that crap about Private V Public.  We're all in a Publically owned environment if we live and breathe anywhere on this planet - and that includes the Antarctic - they pay their taxes there too

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Well what are they earning?  Going by the horror stories over the last number of years about poor attendances and old club time rememberers not attending Regional matches on principle because of 'entrenched' positions - I'd say most of it is 'Get'?

Then you'd be wrong wouldn't you. Wales have more access to their international players than any other test side in the world. That comes at a price.

 Even if someone pays for your players...those players have to pay for themselves by working their buts off to win things.

No idea what you mean here. Not every club can win everything all the time.

SecretFly wrote:

It comes at the price of players sometimes phoning in their Regional performance and not 'earning' for their Region as a result.  Are coaches insisting the player put in as heavy an effort at their Regions as they undoubtedly do at International?

Well it's a big question as the rumours are that a coach has just been dropped by one of the Regions for allegedly putting in such a demand.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
You earned nothing.  Unless you're very special and have an as yet undeclared vested interest in the financials of Scarlets - then nope, you haven't earned a penny.  You're a fan.  You pay your money and watch the movie.  

I thought it obvious that in this analogy the people owning the Welsh regions were represented as the people owning the car and house.

BTW................ how much of the car do you own?  Or the house?  Government didn't take their cut?  You don't pay your tax on your car and you pretty quickly can't drive it.  Government don't tell you where to park it and where not to drive it? Government don't take a slice of anything you add to it or put into it to make it move?

Don't give me that crap about Private V Public.  We're all in a Publically owned environment if we live and breathe anywhere on this planet - and that includes the Antarctic - they pay their taxes there too

I think you've ever so slightly missed the point. So I'll spell it out in toddler writings:

-Would you like someone to take everything you own?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

It comes at the price of players sometimes phoning in their Regional performance and not 'earning' for their Region as a result.  Are coaches insisting the player put in as heavy an effort at their Regions as they undoubtedly do at International?

Of course. Unless you have evidnce that proves otherwise?

Well it's a big question as the rumours are that a coach has just been dropped by one of the Regions for allegedly putting in such a demand.

If you're talking about the Blues, The rumours I've heard are that his mother is gravely ill.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How much of the 9m Euros they owe the IRFU have they paid back?

Anybody want to answer this?

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How much of the 9m Euros they owe the IRFU have they paid back?

Anybody want to answer this?

Thomond Stadium is owned by a Stadium Company which is owned 50% each by IRFU & Munster Branch. The Stadium company raised 50m (I think) through 10 year ticket sales, City grants, Munster's own funds and a loan of 15m from the IRFU. The Stadium was opened in Nov 2008. Munster have paid back 6m to the IRFU since then with 9m outstanding. Up to last year, Munster were paying back 1m per year to the IRFU. This has now been reduced to 100K per year until 2018 when Munster will be selling off a load of 10 year tickets again.

When the 9m is paid off, full ownership of Thomond Park reverts to Munster Rugby.

Meanwhile, Munster's 2nd Stadium in Cork (Musgrave Park now Independent Park) has been refurbished (about 3 or 4 million) and will be reopened this weekend.

Sin é wrote:You have. Munster have to pay the IRFU a lump sum then (basically what they bring in from the sale of the 10 year tickets - I think about 3 or 4m).

They then continue to pay the loan off so much a year until 2027.

THE MUNSTER rugby AGM for 2014 took place last night, June 5 at UL Bohemians RFC Limerick. The main order of business on the night was the election of Mick Goggin (pictured) as Branch President for the incoming year.
Other items in the agenda included last season’s accounts as well as an update on the redevelopment of Irish Independent Musgrave Park.
Speaking to the media ahead of the AGM itself, Philip Quinn, Financial Controller of Munster Rugby outlined the year just gone, as well as announcing a restructuring of the Thomond Park loan repayments.
“For the year ending June 30 2013, we showed a cash-flow of €0.8m. That changed about 170k from what I said at the AGM last year. So it was actually 170k worse” Quinn said.
“We have been in negotiations with the IRFU for some years on our loan commitments to Thomond Park. We were in an agreement to pay a million a year at the moment. That has been restructed now to mean Munster only pay 100k a year. The deal was originally until 2017, but has now been extended to 2027. This has given us a lot more freedom” the FC continued.
The restructuring of the debt is good news for Munster fans who will know that financial pressures are one reason behind Munster being unable to compete on the transfer market. However, the Munster branch have also been in negotiations with the IRFU about more financial aid.
Philip Quinn was able to confirm that a deal similar to Connacht’s €1m investment from the IRFU was on the cards.
“We are also looking for a grant similar to Connacht. The extra million Connacht got this year from the IRFU is something we have been in discussions with the IRFU about. I am not at liberty to say what the exact details are on that at present, but it will make a big difference in our defecit”
With work on Musgrave Park redevelopment about to start next week, Munster’s ability to generate revenue from the stadium is expected to be a factor as soon as next season. (post Christmas)
Again, Philip Quinn explains, “
Obviously we can continue to play pro rugby at the venue. We are looking to drive additional revenue within the venue. We have Il Divo playing there in two weeks time. That will be a 14,500 out door concert. The seating for same is going in next week. It is about showcasing the venue and the facilities we have there once redeveloped.”
“We have cut back as much as we can and it’s now about driving our revenue. Maximising our gates, getting that back to normal levels and also through the commercial boards and sponsorships too” Quinn continued.
Munster, thanks to the IRFU and some new potential sponsorship deals in the pipeline through the commercial board are on course to break even next season. Something that three seasons ago was seen as almost impossible.
With the restructuring of debt being a major plus, Garrett Fitzgerald, CEO of Munster Rugby has offered his thanks to the IRFU for all their assistance.
“Going way back to the start when the plans for Thomond Park were put together when the economy was on a total high it was proposed that our ability to repay was put at 1 million euro (per annum) but that has had to be revisited and now what we’ve done is downsize the annual payment in agreement with the IRFU on the basis that they have lengthened the repayment period”
“It impacts on the cashflow situation becuase you need to have cash to run a business like this. So it’s a huge boost for our cashflow situation and we very much appreciate the assistamce the IRFU have offered.”
In summary, Munster will not be looking to recruitment any more players this season, coupled with cost cutting and a new Pro12 and European Champions Cup it appears that Munster will enter into a new phase of European Rugby on a stronger footing. The future, indeed, looks bright for Munster Rugby.

The key points from last night’s AGM
- Musgrave Park redevelopment is to commence next week.
- IRFU debt on Thomond Park restructured from €1m a year to 100k until 2027
- Season ticket sales for this coming season on a par with last. Seems to have plateaued at this level now.
- Munster will continue to ‘rent’ out Thomond Park and Musgrave Park for concerts. The branch charge a set hosting fee for these events thus guaranteeing income regardless of ticket sales.
FYI – Some interesting points from last night.
Heineken Cup QF breakdown.
Philip Quinn – “The Heineken Cup quarter final against Toulouse created in excess of 450k profit. The revenue from a Heineken Cup quarter final can be about 900k. Match costs are 180k, That leaves you with 720k, the visiting team gets 360k, we get 360k, the IRFU takes 180k of our 360k, so that leaves us with 180k. The IRFU takes the prize money too which would be about 450-500k. It’s very lobsided alright, but in fairness to the IRFU they are providing some financial support to us now too”
UL Training Facility update
“Planning permission has been submitted. UL will build the centre and then rent it exclusively to Munster over a long-term period, 15 years and upwards. It will be fully operational by July 2016.” – Garrett Fitzgerald
Pro Team Costs
“There was also some additional pro team costs resulting from performance related bonuses. Again, from getting to the Heineken Cup Quarter final. There is also a structure of match bonuses. The IRFU allow us (Munster) 10 win bonuses for the players. The IRFU pay all those bonuses for us. If you win more than that, the bill gets higher for the province at the end of the year. We are actually over budget on that side of things.” Philip Quinn
Thomond Park naming rights
This appears to be still on the table, but Munster have not approached anyone on same.
.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:You have. Munster have to pay the IRFU a lump sum then (basically what they bring in from the sale of the 10 year tickets - I think about 3 or 4m).

They then continue to pay the loan off so much a year until 2027.

They agreed a similar deal last time but they missed the 3m payment in May 2014 because they couldn't afford it. Hope they can next time.

This was from the last Munster AGM in June:

THE MUNSTER rugby AGM for 2014 took place last night, June 5 at UL Bohemians RFC Limerick. The main order of business on the night was the election of Mick Goggin (pictured) as Branch President for the incoming year.
Other items in the agenda included last season’s accounts as well as an update on the redevelopment of Irish Independent Musgrave Park.
Speaking to the media ahead of the AGM itself, Philip Quinn, Financial Controller of Munster Rugby outlined the year just gone, as well as announcing a restructuring of the Thomond Park loan repayments.
“For the year ending June 30 2013, we showed a cash-flow of €0.8m. That changed about 170k from what I said at the AGM last year. So it was actually 170k worse” Quinn said.
“We have been in negotiations with the IRFU for some years on our loan commitments to Thomond Park. We were in an agreement to pay a million a year at the moment. That has been restructed now to mean Munster only pay 100k a year. The deal was originally until 2017, but has now been extended to 2027. This has given us a lot more freedom” the FC continued.
The restructuring of the debt is good news for Munster fans who will know that financial pressures are one reason behind Munster being unable to compete on the transfer market. However, the Munster branch have also been in negotiations with the IRFU about more financial aid.
Philip Quinn was able to confirm that a deal similar to Connacht’s €1m investment from the IRFU was on the cards.
“We are also looking for a grant similar to Connacht. The extra million Connacht got this year from the IRFU is something we have been in discussions with the IRFU about. I am not at liberty to say what the exact details are on that at present, but it will make a big difference in our defecit”
With work on Musgrave Park redevelopment about to start next week, Munster’s ability to generate revenue from the stadium is expected to be a factor as soon as next season. (post Christmas)
Again, Philip Quinn explains, “
Obviously we can continue to play pro rugby at the venue. We are looking to drive additional revenue within the venue. We have Il Divo playing there in two weeks time. That will be a 14,500 out door concert. The seating for same is going in next week. It is about showcasing the venue and the facilities we have there once redeveloped.”
“We have cut back as much as we can and it’s now about driving our revenue. Maximising our gates, getting that back to normal levels and also through the commercial boards and sponsorships too” Quinn continued.
Munster, thanks to the IRFU and some new potential sponsorship deals in the pipeline through the commercial board are on course to break even next season. Something that three seasons ago was seen as almost impossible.
With the restructuring of debt being a major plus, Garrett Fitzgerald, CEO of Munster Rugby has offered his thanks to the IRFU for all their assistance.
“Going way back to the start when the plans for Thomond Park were put together when the economy was on a total high it was proposed that our ability to repay was put at 1 million euro (per annum) but that has had to be revisited and now what we’ve done is downsize the annual payment in agreement with the IRFU on the basis that they have lengthened the repayment period”
“It impacts on the cashflow situation becuase you need to have cash to run a business like this. So it’s a huge boost for our cashflow situation and we very much appreciate the assistamce the IRFU have offered.”
In summary, Munster will not be looking to recruitment any more players this season, coupled with cost cutting and a new Pro12 and European Champions Cup it appears that Munster will enter into a new phase of European Rugby on a stronger footing. The future, indeed, looks bright for Munster Rugby.

The key points from last night’s AGM
- Musgrave Park redevelopment is to commence next week.
- IRFU debt on Thomond Park restructured from €1m a year to 100k until 2027
- Season ticket sales for this coming season on a par with last. Seems to have plateaued at this level now.
- Munster will continue to ‘rent’ out Thomond Park and Musgrave Park for concerts. The branch charge a set hosting fee for these events thus guaranteeing income regardless of ticket sales.
FYI – Some interesting points from last night.
Heineken Cup QF breakdown.
Philip Quinn – “The Heineken Cup quarter final against Toulouse created in excess of 450k profit. The revenue from a Heineken Cup quarter final can be about 900k. Match costs are 180k, That leaves you with 720k, the visiting team gets 360k, we get 360k, the IRFU takes 180k of our 360k, so that leaves us with 180k. The IRFU takes the prize money too which would be about 450-500k. It’s very lobsided alright, but in fairness to the IRFU they are providing some financial support to us now too”
UL Training Facility update
“Planning permission has been submitted. UL will build the centre and then rent it exclusively to Munster over a long-term period, 15 years and upwards. It will be fully operational by July 2016.” – Garrett Fitzgerald
Pro Team Costs
“There was also some additional pro team costs resulting from performance related bonuses. Again, from getting to the Heineken Cup Quarter final. There is also a structure of match bonuses. The IRFU allow us (Munster) 10 win bonuses for the players. The IRFU pay all those bonuses for us. If you win more than that, the bill gets higher for the province at the end of the year. We are actually over budget on that side of things.” Philip Quinn
Thomond Park naming rights
This appears to be still on the table, but Munster have not approached anyone on same.
.

So next time, before you go accusing Welsh regions of being poorly managed, financially unviable and "getting money" from the Union, maybe have a wee look at your own house, to see how well it's being run.

Cheers.

Sin é wrote:

Munster are not getting money from the Union to spunk on player wages. Owning your own stadium makes you money in the end (and is an asset to the local community). The Welsh regions expect money for nothing from the WRU. The Irish Provinces have to payback everything they get.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Are you taking the urine? Look at the IRFU accounts FFS.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Are you taking the urine? Look at the IRFU accounts FFS.

Yea - the IRFU had a surplus last year of about 8m. They have no major debt and Funds of about 60m.

From the notes to the accounts:

The Union advanced funds to the Munster Branch in order to assist with the development of Thomond Park. The amounts
advanced are secured on the Branch’s share in Thomond Park Stadium Company Limited and on the loan advanced by the Branch
to that company. Interest is chargeable on the loan to the Branch based on the effective cost of funds to the Union.
During the year, the Union agreed new terms of repayment. The loan is to be repaid on a phased basis over the next number of
years as follows:
30 April 2015    e100,000
30 April 2016    e200,000
30 April 2017    e4,200,000
30 April 2018 - 30 April 2026 (per annum)   e500,000
30 April 2027 - e 761,778

Instead of borrowing from the bank, the Munster branch have borrowed from the IRFU. They have the cash, so why would they borrow from a bank?

Munster are not getting money from the Union to spunk on player wages

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Are you taking the urine? Look at the IRFU accounts FFS.

Yea - the IRFU had a surplus last year of about 8m. They have no major debt and Funds of about 60m.

From the notes to the accounts:

The Union advanced funds to the Munster Branch in order to assist with the development of Thomond Park. The amounts
advanced are secured on the Branch’s share in Thomond Park Stadium Company Limited and on the loan advanced by the Branch
to that company. Interest is chargeable on the loan to the Branch based on the effective cost of funds to the Union.
During the year, the Union agreed new terms of repayment. The loan is to be repaid on a phased basis over the next number of
years as follows:
30 April 2015    e100,000
30 April 2016    e200,000
30 April 2017    e4,200,000
30 April 2018 - 30 April 2026 (per annum)   e500,000
30 April 2027 - e 761,778

Instead of borrowing from the bank, the Munster branch have borrowed from the IRFU. They have the cash, so why would they borrow from a bank?

I'm talking about this bit:

Munster are not getting money from the Union to spunk on player wages

Sin é wrote:By the way, the IRFU pay all Provincial players a set amount.

Sin é wrote:

Munster are not getting money from the Union to spunk on player wages.