Wales will not get out of World Cup Group - Robinson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31900566

I would not take too much notice of Robinson to be honest. Both England and Wales will have to play a lot better than they have this 6ns if they are top get out of there group in my opinion.

It is just a matter of wait and see.

All in all, I agree. It will be very tight and I'm not writing them off- I just think that if I had to put my head on the block, Wales are the team I'd predict to lose out. They have an awful record against Australia and face England buoyed by their home crowd and the massive incentive of being hosts. I could easily be wrong, but thats the way I see it going down.

It must be incredibly frustrating for Welsh fans to have this group as a result of organising a fourth international which dropped their seeding from 8th to 9th. Had they only played three tests that year they would have been second seeds.

He's probably right.

I'd back England to beat Wales at Twickenham - and then its Wales v Australia - Wales don't have a very good record against Australia...whereas England have the measure of them lately (or at least have demonstrated they can beat them).

Well judging by some fo the Australian performances in super rugby I'd say both wales and England will fancy their chances....Wales could just as well win the group as go out.

Yes I agree with you Rodders - the emphatic way in which he predicted it though gets my goat - could not get more arrogant if you tried

I think Australia and England are favourites to go through at the expense of Wales, but I wouldn't put a penny on it.

GavinDragon wrote:Yes I agree with you Rodders - the emphatic way in which he predicted it though gets my goat - could not get more arrogant if you tried

He has an unfortunate manner about him. He may have a point, but watching him on scrum 5, he is difficult to warm to.

Wales will need a lot more central figures to be fit and playing than England or Australia will require.

England certainly can perform adequately even losing a number of 'central' characters - indeed, have they any outside their Captain?  It's a real squad in the making with players able to slot in and the fans howling for their favourites still to be added.

That can be a false sense of security but I do believe its more than Wales have.  Without AWJ and Warburton and now Biggar - and Halfpenny, things would be very different in competitiveness for Wales.

But if Wales have their central characters up and fit and conditioned to Gatland's exacting standards - then they have more than enough punch to give either England or Australia a bloody nose... both even.  Yeah, they're in the hunt.  But they do need those key figures to be there.

I watched it last night and it did make me laugh.  I'm sure Robinson has never forgiven Wales for the last gasp win against Scotland in 2010.  If it wasn't for Wales he might still be working in international rugby.

Anyway it doesn't really matter what he or any of the pundits say.  We are in the group of death and we're going to have to play exceptionally well to get out of it.  It's not a nice situation to be in but I doubt England or Australia are particularly happy about it either...

The interesting thing Robinson did say to back his opinion up was that England would have employed the maul to more devastating effect and bullied Wales out of the game yesterday.  He may be right about that and it leaves me to think has Luke Charteris become our most important player?

offload wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Yes I agree with you Rodders - the emphatic way in which he predicted it though gets my goat - could not get more arrogant if you tried

He has an unfortunate manner about him.  He may have a point, but watching him on scrum 5, he is difficult to warm to.

Scotland 15 - 21 Tonga.

For the above, and many other reasons, I also find Andy Robinson difficult to warm to. What has enhanced his reputation somewhat is that Scott Johnson and Dean Ryan, and subsequently Scott Johnson on his own, were a lot worse.

I think it will be down to point difference and we will loose out. I pray i'm wrong though

As fly points out, we will need all our best players available to compete. England and Australia will be favourites given home advantage and recent results. I won't be betting my hard earned on us.

Personally Robinson just wants to shut his mouth. Good forwards coach....poor head coach...and deluded if he thought Englands performance on Saturday was better than Wales...

England are the team that may well struggle.
Though strictly id like to see the Aussies fail to qualify....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally Robinson just wants to shut his mouth. Good forwards coach....poor head coach...and deluded if he thought Englands performance on Saturday was better than Wales...

England are the team that may well struggle.
Though strictly id like to see the Aussies fail to qualify....

That would certainly be my preference. About time the SH "giants" had a fall, and it certainly won't come in the Ashes this summer.

Australia are 6th in the rankings at the moment - when was the last time they were so low?

Dunno...the match against Ireland is another example of them being able to pull a result out of the bag when they need it, against the flow. They did the same versus England a couple of years ago when all England needed was to lose by 8 to secure the championship when they turned on a massive blitz to blow them off the park.

I expected a Wales to lose on the weekend but every now and then they lift their game up a couple of notches when least expected.

That's the sort of thing you need at a World Cup, a good one off performance.

Mind you, whoever does get out of that group will find it very difficult to then last three tough knockouts, which is why I can't see the winner coming from that group. Either fatigue or injury will hit any side from that group.

Robinson's right about Wales not scoring enough tries.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Robinson's right about Wales not scoring enough tries.

Agree. Defence alone won't be enough and we are still offering little in attack.

Where and when do most world cup tries get scored? Against minnows in mismatched games.

Try scoring pomp isn't all that much a factor later on when arm-wrestling credentials probably pay more dividends (thus Ireland practicing hard how Not to score tries )

But seriously - the later stages become attritional physical encounters that are always tinged with guile and caution. Too much ride on the games to play too openly, defensive shapes will be important.

So come the end games, the most defensively well structured will have a big say.

Who needs tries when you have Halfpenny and his laser guided boot

We need to get to the end games first, Fly.

Who needs tries when you have Halfpenny and his laser guided boot.

Is that not the problem with Wales though. They seem to rely on the boot of Half Penny, from turn overs and penalties. And also the "DROP GOAL'S" from the boot of Dan Biggar

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We need to get to the end games first, Fly.

My point is since you're all up against each other in the Pools, when you might expect to more usually meet each other in the end stages, the same rules of coy, caution and defence first will count. Those games between England, Australia and Wales will have so much importance attached that they might be very stagnant affairs indeed - based on which side can do defending best. But in order to do serious defending, a little of the try scoring swagger and intent must be reined in and controlled.

Wales are well in the game. The cricket score try scoring games will be against the lesser sides in the Pool to blow off tension and give a good feeling to all three sides.

majesticimperialman wrote:Who needs tries when you have Halfpenny and his laser guided boot.

Is that not the problem with Wales though. They seem to rely on the boot of Half Penny, from turn overs and penalties. And also the "DROP GOAL'S" from the boot of Dan Biggar

Well, when they're together a long time and have conditioned themselves up to the levels they showed against Ireland at the weekend - they usually take time to get up to speed in any competition - then it can be enough, imperial. Under those circumstances, it can be enough.

SecretFly wrote:Where and when do most world cup tries get scored?  Against minnows in mismatched games.

Try scoring pomp isn't all that much a factor later on when arm-wrestling credentials probably pay more dividends  (thus Ireland practicing hard how Not to score tries )

But seriously - the later stages become attritional physical encounters that are always tinged with guile and caution.  Too much ride on the games to play too openly, defensive shapes will be important.

So come the end games, the most defensively well structured will have a big say.

Who needs tries when you have Halfpenny and his laser guided boot

Yes agree with that SF. And if the low scoring attritional stuff is happening as a rule now it will be more so after pool play when fatigue will set in. I think Hansens Way of combatting that this year will be to absolutely minimise key players involvement in pool play as much as possible rather than give them 'match time'.

That way his side is as fresh as possible versus hopefully a lot of weary sides that have to battle in pool. With a markedly easier pool than everyone else, and playing Argie first, Hansen can pace the side how he likes vs Georgia, Tonga etc. go into last 8 fresh.

It's the single biggest advantage we have over most sides with an easy pool.

Intensity will be important.

Wales started strongly vs Ireland and got them rattled, particularly Sexton who struggled throughout.

Wales will probably be happier with the 6 nations than England at the moment after beating Ireland, the side that England struggled with.

Unless England rebuild some confidence with a strong performance against France, they'll be in danger.

It'll be interesting to see how England deal with the pressure of being hosts. Will they thrive on it, or will they seize up?

beshocked wrote:Intensity will be important.

Wales started strongly vs Ireland and got them rattled, particularly Sexton who struggled throughout.

Wales will probably be happier with the 6 nations than England at the moment after beating Ireland, the side that England struggled with.

Unless England rebuild some confidence with a strong performance against France, they'll be in danger.

But despite all the standard excuses England were relatively comfortable vs Wales playing in Cardiff. Rock paper scissors with the three teams at the moment.

beshocked wrote:Intensity will be important.

Wales started strongly vs Ireland and got them rattled, particularly Sexton who struggled throughout.

Wales will probably be happier with the 6 nations than England at the moment after beating Ireland, the side that England struggled with.

Unless England rebuild some confidence with a strong performance against France, they'll be in danger.

I'm not sure you can ever really say that Team A beat Team B, who in turn beat Team C. Therefore Team A should be happier than Team C. Lets face it, Team C beat Team A in their own back yard and Team A were very nearly beaten by Team D if it hadn't been for some comedy refereeing.

Team X

Beware of them. They get the best lines in all movies.

lostinwales England have not progressed from the win against Wales, if anything they've gone backwards.

Jimpy Wales have improved since the first game. I don't think England have.

England were trounced by Ireland and struggled to put away Scotland - not good form.

Sure it's nice to create so many chances but when your team butchers so many chances it's not promising. There was a completely lack of basics at crucial times.

beshocked.

Agree with most of what you say. but at least England have managed to score tries against all the teams they have played. And have not had to rely on the likes of George Ford to keep kicking penalties.

Unlike Wales who seem to play for Penalties from the boot of Half Penny.

beshocked wrote:lostinwales England have not progressed from the win against Wales, if anything they've gone backwards.

Jimpy Wales have improved since the first game. I don't think England have.

England were trounced by Ireland and struggled to put away Scotland - not good form.

Sure it's nice to create so many chances but when your team butchers so many chances it's not promising. There was a completely lack of basics at crucial times.

And your point is?

Ireland 'trounced' England (hardly!) but then lost to Wales, who England beat.

so, who hasn't improved exactly? By your rationale, it's all three.

beshocked wrote:lostinwales England have not progressed from the win against Wales, if anything they've gone backwards.

Jimpy Wales have improved since the first game. I don't think England have.

England were trounced by Ireland and struggled to put away Scotland - not good form.

Sure it's nice to create so many chances but when your team butchers so many chances it's not promising. There was a completely lack of basics at crucial times.

Struggled to put away Scotland?

Okay, it was close in the first half, England simply went through the gears in the second half. They left at least 20 points on the field due to minor handling errors and if it wasn't for Hogg, Scotland would have been another 14 points down on top of that. The result was never in doubt.

We all have weaknesses as sides.  It's clear as daylight.

Wales play out of their skins on intensity levels - they really do.  I adore that aspect of their basically cultural identity - they heat up, they get on fire but they do so without falling apart.  They have a rage that can be contained by beauty.  A great asset - BUT - it still didn't drive them far enough past a rough spud Ireland or bury the rough spud in the ground.  They were still just there and no more at the end, which was a poorish return for the absolute heroic efforts. Gatland needs to solve that disparity between selfless use of energy by the players and the frustratingly close end results - devise better systems to make use of Welsh physical aggression.

England, they certainly can throttle up on the afterburners and in an instant can have a gap that they can utilise better than any other team in the NH right now.  They have fireworks players all over the field and then still more on the sidelines or not even in the current squad - BUT - I think they shy away from the hard slog of containing their own instincts as much as they can struggle to contain their opponents.  I think if they became a few degrees more 'pragmatic' and designed games around using explosive force only in moments of sharp surprise tempo changes, then they'd catch sleeper sides more off guard.

Ireland are Pragmatic kings - when your Flyhalf and Scrumhalf can sleep walk/play badly through a mad and passionate game, when balls can be kicked out on the full like school boy stuff, when passing looks so slow and 'unsafe' and 'uneasy', when you have wings and centres that are merely substitute token forwards, holding the fort in defence and offering zilch in attack; when you can do all that and still be in a game with a Wales in that uncompromising mood at the weekend????  That's a serious side - BUT - we need a big dollop of common sense now, a big dollop of what England and Wales and even Scotland have, and that's a more cutting, dynamic attacking game generated by pace and accuracy and the balls to run things from deep.

So we all have out strengths but are impeded by certain weaknesses.

True majesticimperialman but Wales are more than capable of beating England with just the boot of Halfpenny if they can get the upperhand at the breakdown and get the penalty kicks as they did vs Ireland.

If England are struggling at the breakdown it will have a knock on effect - Youngs will inevitably struggle and in all likelihood so will the rest of the England backline.

Actually England failed to score vs Ireland.

I don't think England are bad - they are just got many flaws that need fixing. I feel that England are a less limited side than Ireland and Wales but England have a lot of work to do before the RWC.

And I know come second half Scotland didnt offer much at all, England did squeeze the life out of them that half as they did against Wales.

Wales got one fortunate try (Yes it was well taken and there was work to do after the fortunate bit, but..) and from that point all they offered in attack was 1/2p and his laser guided boots.

England won by more last year and yet Wales created more chances than in this game

Robinson has never got over being the worst international coach, of two teams, in history. his utter humiliation in 2010 v Wales must have finally broken him so now he coaches grizzle and still keeps shipping Welsh boys in. His opinion on Welsh chances is good news for us.

lostinwales wrote:And I know come second half Scotland didnt offer much at all, England did squeeze the life out of them that half as they did against Wales.

Wales got one fortunate try (Yes it was well taken and there was work to do after the fortunate bit, but..) and from that point all they offered in attack was 1/2p and his laser guided boots.

England won by more last year and yet Wales created more chances than in this game

England didn't really 'struggle' to put Scotland away at all. The stats (some people love them) are as follows:

England made 611 metres with ball in hand with 48% possession.
Scotland made 372 metres with 52% possession.

England made 17 clean breaks to Scotland's 5.

England tackled at 88% success rate to Scotland's 82%.

The incessant complaints on here about how supposedly bad England were seem to be more grounded in a general frustration than anything specific, because most of the specific complaints seem to be, well.... wrong. Or dubious at best

Jimpy England went into the half time trailing to Scotland, the weakest side in the competition. That's poor. England struggled to put away Scotland - they only went more than a score ahead very late on in the game.

You say England went through the gears - no England just butchered more chances.

The final score vs Ireland flattered England, England were fortunate that Sexton went off injured. I guess you can argue that Ireland rely far too much on Sexton but still England need to aspire to beating an Irish side which includes him.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:lostinwales England have not progressed from the win against Wales, if anything they've gone backwards.

Jimpy Wales have improved since the first game. I don't think England have.

England were trounced by Ireland and struggled to put away Scotland - not good form.

Sure it's nice to create so many chances but when your team butchers so many chances it's not promising. There was a completely lack of basics at crucial times.

Struggled to put away Scotland?

Okay, it was close in the first half, England simply went through the gears in the second half. They left at least 20 points on the field due to minor handling errors and if it wasn't for Hogg, Scotland would have been another 14 points down on top of that. The result was never in doubt.

As a scots fan I agree. England never looked like losing - I thought it more like 30 pts england left on the feild

beshocked wrote:Jimpy England went into the half time trailing to Scotland, the weakest side in the competition. That's poor. England struggled to put away Scotland - they only went more than a score ahead very late on in the game.

You say England went through the gears - no England just butchered more chances.

The final score vs Ireland flattered England, England were fortunate that Sexton went off injured. I guess you can argue that Ireland rely far too much on Sexton but still England need to aspire to beating an Irish side which includes him.

May I refer you to the cold hard facts as above:

England made 611 metres with ball in hand with 48% possession.
Scotland made 372 metres with 52% possession.

England made 17 clean breaks to Scotland's 5.

England tackled at 88% success rate to Scotland's 82%.

The incessant complaints on here about how dreadful we were seem to be more grounded in a general frustration than anything specific, because most of the specific complaints seem to be, well.... wrong. Or dubious at best. You do know England were the ones in white don't you?

Thought this thread was about Wales not getting out of the group, anyway Sexton was rubbish. Seems his best in the world tag caused his hubris to overtake his talent…too much fancy pants play in the 10/12 channel, lateral attack and awful kicking

Gwlad wrote:Thought this thread was about Wales not getting out of the group, anyway Sexton was rubbish. Seems his best in the world tag caused his hubris to overtake his talent…too much fancy pants play in the 10/12 channel, lateral attack and awful kicking

Oh, yes indeed.

Wales will not get out of their group.

Jimpy wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And I know come second half Scotland didnt offer much at all, England did squeeze the life out of them that half as they did against Wales.

Wales got one fortunate try (Yes it was well taken and there was work to do after the fortunate bit, but..) and from that point all they offered in attack was 1/2p and his laser guided boots.

England won by more last year and yet Wales created more chances than in this game

England didn't really 'struggle' to put Scotland away at all. The stats (some people love them) are as follows:

England made 611 metres with ball in hand with 48% possession.
Scotland made 372 metres with 52% possession.

England made 17 clean breaks to Scotland's 5.

England tackled at 88% success rate to Scotland's 82%.

The incessant complaints on here about how supposedly bad England were seem to be more grounded in a general frustration than anything specific, because most of the specific complaints seem to be, well.... wrong. Or dubious at best

The specific complaints aren't wrong - unless you choose to ignore them like you.

England only scored 3 tries. 17 clean breaks is a very poor return indeed. It shows that England have a lot of work to do on their basic skills like passing the ball to a supporting player. It's not rocket science. Ball retention is important!

Sure it's nice to make breaks but if you don't turn these into points then they aren't very useful are they?

It shows how poor England's finishing is. England made a few clean breaks and metres vs Ireland too but yielded 0 tries.

88% tackle isn't that great to be honest.

Gwlad wrote:Thought this thread was about Wales not getting out of the group, anyway Sexton was rubbish. Seems his best in the world tag caused his hubris to overtake his talent…too much fancy pants play in the 10/12 channel, lateral attack and awful kicking

'Thank God!!!' breathes Wales in a sigh of relief

Some of you guys make it seem like you're disappointed Sexton played crap???  Rejoice.  It keeps you in the fight.

Gwlad wrote:Thought this thread was about Wales not getting out of the group, anyway Sexton was rubbish. Seems his best in the world tag caused his hubris to overtake his talent…too much fancy pants play in the 10/12 channel, lateral attack and awful kicking

Wales rattled him with a strong performance - particularly from big matches by Charteris,AWJ,Warburton and Halfpenny (1st half where he helped lay down the platform).

Halfpenny obviously took lessons from Brown on goalkeeping!

Sexton was imperious vs England but in complete contrast allowed the Welsh team to get into his head.

Wales unfortunately won't have their 16th man against England either (I mean the Welsh crowd in this case not Steve Walsh ).

SecretFly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Thought this thread was about Wales not getting out of the group, anyway Sexton was rubbish. Seems his best in the world tag caused his hubris to overtake his talent…too much fancy pants play in the 10/12 channel, lateral attack and awful kicking

'Thank God!!!' breathes Wales in a sigh of relief

Some of you guys make it seem like you're disappointed Sexton played crap???  Rejoice.  It keeps you in the fight.

No relief. I expected the win and predicted the score. I also predict France will do what France do best next weekend and suddenly turn it on….enjoy!

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And I know come second half Scotland didnt offer much at all, England did squeeze the life out of them that half as they did against Wales.

Wales got one fortunate try (Yes it was well taken and there was work to do after the fortunate bit, but..) and from that point all they offered in attack was 1/2p and his laser guided boots.

England won by more last year and yet Wales created more chances than in this game

England didn't really 'struggle' to put Scotland away at all. The stats (some people love them) are as follows:

England made 611 metres with ball in hand with 48% possession.
Scotland made 372 metres with 52% possession.

England made 17 clean breaks to Scotland's 5.

England tackled at 88% success rate to Scotland's 82%.

The incessant complaints on here about how supposedly bad England were seem to be more grounded in a general frustration than anything specific, because most of the specific complaints seem to be, well.... wrong. Or dubious at best

The specific complaints aren't wrong - unless you choose to ignore them like you.

England only scored 3 tries. 17 clean breaks is a very poor return indeed. It shows that England have a lot of work to do on their basic skills like passing the ball to a supporting player. It's not rocket science. Ball retention is important!

Sure it's nice to make breaks but if you don't turn these into points then they aren't very useful are they?

It shows how poor England's finishing is. England made a few clean breaks and metres vs Ireland too but yielded 0 tries.

88% tackle isn't that great to be honest.

And yet still England won. Comfortably. In fact, England won by 12 points (the bookies had them by 13) - if you apply your own logic to that result, Scotland were 'trounced' (because Ireland 'trounced' England by 10 points). Yet, Ireland lost to Wales who England beat - so - who hasn't improved?

England were not as clinical as anybody would have liked (unless you're Scottish perhaps), but the chances were created, which was pleasing to see. Nobody is ignoring 'specific complaints'.  However, the fact remains that despite being rather sloppy, the result of that match was not in doubt, you yourself said that England have a mindset now where they can go in at half time down (they did) but come out second half and return the deficit (they did). Which other side in the 6N has scored 11 tries this year exactly? Are you sure finishing is a pervasive issue?

Jimpy England haven't improved obviously.

Chances were created but not taken. England have been sloppy throughout the tournament even against Wales where they could have probably score at least two other tries.

17 breaks and only 3 tries - you don't think finishing is an issue? Should have really stuffed Scotland by 30-40 points.

England overturned the deficit vs the worst side in the competition - that's the bare minimum expected.

The result shouldn't have been in doubt - England were at home, haven't lost to Scotland at Twickenhem in over 30 years.

Sure England have scored more tries than other sides but England have still been wasteful and idiotic in their play. England have to focus on English problems.

My point is if England don't improve their abysmal finishing then Wales will be confident that Gatlandball could well work vs England. England do create and score more tries than the opposition but still not enough. Afterall England lost to Ireland.


Wales had the intensity and ability to take the points on offer vs Ireland, in contrast England did not have the same vs Scotland.