State of the team: England

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

Steve does not quite grasp the concept that England (as well as all teams) need to be looking forward to succeed as opposed to living off past glories. I never look back any further than the past world cup or the one coming up which 2012 to 2015 equals one Grandslam and one 6N and while we didn't win this 6N (due to mathematics rather than losing more games than the winner and second place) a scalp over Ireland and only losing to one team due to a poor second half performance will do me in the build up to thc RWC

kingelderfield wrote:

thomh wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:...you can't help but feel he stumbled upon Ford and Joseph by accident...

He didn't stumble across Ford. The player was always on his radar. He couldn't really have picked him much earlier, because he didn't get much of a run of top quality games at Leicester in his last season there, and wasn't especially impressive when he did turn out for the Saxons. Rather than take him to Argentina, Lancaster asked him to bulk up, and get a decent pre-season.

At Bath, he delivered on his earlier promise, made his Test debut against Wales last year, and was in line for the NZ tour but got injured. This year, then, was the first time Lancaster really had a chance to play him, and he has done so.

Joseph was also under consideration, starting matches on South Africa but injury meant he wasn't available for the next 6N. Injury and form pushed him down the pecking order but they have now pushed him back up. I do agree it's unlikely that Joseph would have got his chance if Tuilagi, Burrell and Barritt had been fit.

I think you're rewriting history. Lancaster would still be selecting Farrell and Tuilagi if they were fit.

Lancaster shifted and then dropped Farrell to accommodate Ford in the Autumn and we promptly beat Australia. Ford was starting at 10 this Six Nations regardless of Farrell's fitness.

I'm not so confident, though based on your logic I presume we won't be seeing Farrell amazingly re-emerge as our 10 (or anywhere else for that matter as he is NOT A CENTRE) during the world cup.

I just don't see how he can be selected in the squad given his lack of form and game time, when others better than him are performing well.

Well you can suspect Farrell would have started if you like, but claiming that it's 'rewriting history' to suggest otherwise is ridiculous given that Lancaster went for Ford last time both were available.

Steffan wrote:Steve does not quite grasp the concept that England (as well as all teams) need to be looking forward to succeed as opposed to living off past glories. I never look back any further than the past world cup or the one coming up which 2012 to 2015 equals one Grandslam and one 6N and while we didn't win this 6N (due to mathematics rather than losing more games than the winner and second place) a scalp over Ireland and only losing to one team due to a poor second half performance will do me in the build up to thc RWC

That's all well and good, but pretty irrelevant on a thread entitled State of the team: England.

Heaf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:Like I said, England top the 6N table, Wales are 4th. England have also scored the most tries and have the best points difference in the 6N and the only 6N team to have never lost to Italy. England are more consistent year on year than any other side.

Consistently 2nd, well done.

Surely you would prefer that over your grand slam wins?

Damn right, 2nd is best, England have proved that. Ironic it was a Welshman who cost us a deserved 2nd place this year, Vunipola's 'try' clearing being dropped

OK I know I shouldn't bite as you're clearly on a wind up, but on this point - even if it was dropped unless it went forwards it doesn't matter - and it didn't go forwards ... I could pick out half a dozen other incidents throughout the tournament that if they'd gone the other way would have given England the championship - the reality is these things swing on small margins and either one of England, Ireland or Wales could have won it.  

?? Yes it does, not in control in the act of scoring try = no try, not the same as dropping in field when it would shave been fine to drop and re gather if it didnt go forward.

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Shame your mob will never win a world cup or be sat higher than 3rd in the world rankings

EnglishReign wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Shame your mob will never win a world cup or be sat higher than 3rd in the world rankings

Shame your mob keep coming 2nd in the World's best rugby tournament.

Gwlad wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Shame your mob will never win a world cup or be sat higher than 3rd in the world rankings

Shame your mob keep coming 2nd in the World's best rugby tournament.

We have bigger fish to fry than you Celts.

EnglishReign wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Shame your mob will never win a world cup or be sat higher than 3rd in the world rankings

Shame your mob keep coming 2nd in the World's best rugby tournament.

We have bigger fish to fry than you Celts.

Oh of course you do, and you'd best get to it because you looked like fools in RWC 2011 and since then have won 1 triple crown.

Gwlad wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:Like I said, England top the 6N table, Wales are 4th. England have also scored the most tries and have the best points difference in the 6N and the only 6N team to have never lost to Italy. England are more consistent year on year than any other side.

Consistently 2nd, well done.

Surely you would prefer that over your grand slam wins?

Damn right, 2nd is best, England have proved that. Ironic it was a Welshman who cost us a deserved 2nd place this year, Vunipola's 'try' clearing being dropped

OK I know I shouldn't bite as you're clearly on a wind up, but on this point - even if it was dropped unless it went forwards it doesn't matter - and it didn't go forwards ... I could pick out half a dozen other incidents throughout the tournament that if they'd gone the other way would have given England the championship - the reality is these things swing on small margins and either one of England, Ireland or Wales could have won it.  

?? Yes it does, not in control in the act of scoring try = no try, not the same as dropping in field when it would shave been fine to drop and re gather if it didnt go forward.

Incorrect. Only downward pressure is needed, not control. Rule 22.1 http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?law=22

thomh wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:Like I said, England top the 6N table, Wales are 4th. England have also scored the most tries and have the best points difference in the 6N and the only 6N team to have never lost to Italy. England are more consistent year on year than any other side.

Consistently 2nd, well done.

Surely you would prefer that over your grand slam wins?

Damn right, 2nd is best, England have proved that. Ironic it was a Welshman who cost us a deserved 2nd place this year, Vunipola's 'try' clearing being dropped

OK I know I shouldn't bite as you're clearly on a wind up, but on this point - even if it was dropped unless it went forwards it doesn't matter - and it didn't go forwards ... I could pick out half a dozen other incidents throughout the tournament that if they'd gone the other way would have given England the championship - the reality is these things swing on small margins and either one of England, Ireland or Wales could have won it.  

?? Yes it does, not in control in the act of scoring try = no try, not the same as dropping in field when it would shave been fine to drop and re gather if it didnt go forward.

Incorrect. Only downward pressure is needed, not control. Rule 22.1 http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?law=22

downward pressure, so….not dropping it then.

You can pick loads of mistakes through the tournament. Ifs and buts.

Dropping it not forwards and then landing on it with your stomach would be fine, obviously

Really? We're still going to feed the Welsh trolls?

12 is critical now.

We need a defensive organiser aswell. Our defence was a bit too loose at times...not good enough to win a WC anyway.

Burrell simply isn't the answer.

2 outside bets are Slade or Tuilagi.

I'm not as downbeat as some on here actually and I think that England are not far off being a really good team. That match against France - which I've just re-watched was superb I thought and proves that England have developed the ability to attack and score plenty of tries. I agree that there are still problems and tweaks needed (agree on number 12) but I'm optimistic about the World Cup. I do worry about the lack of consistency though and England really should have done better against Scotland. The World Cup will be fascinating with strong NH teams, England with home advantage and NZ and SA always in the mix. I can't help thinking France will have sorted themselves out by then too in their confounding Gallic way. Can't wait and expect England to do well.

EnglishReign wrote:We have bigger fish to fry than you Celts

Yeah that's why you keep entering an annual tournament with them which you have won once in the last 11 years

Have a day off mate

You Welsh lot need to move into the present and start worrying about your own failing team, please not do not reply with a History lesson.

No 7&1/2 wrote:2 outside bets are Slade or Tuilagi.

Yeah 7.5 they are certainly possibilities. But as has been mentioned in this previously, Slade has never played at 12 and Manu is a 13 for me. It would be unfair to drop Joseph as soon / if Manu ever becomes fit again.

I think for the WC its now a straight choice between 36 or Barritt. 36 needs to take a genuine dose of consistency...or more importantly improve his execution.

Barritt is my choice. He would offer a leader in there to take charge of that defence. He does have question marks about his attacking game...but the fact Burrell offered zero in that area also and we still looked threatening would suggest to me its worth it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You Welsh lot need to move into the present and start worrying about your own failing team, please not do not reply with a History lesson.

I agree and I'm not one for giving history lessons as I said before anything that has happened this side of the 2011 RWC is irrelevant to all teams in my opinion as the clock goes back to zero once the RWC is over and everyone needs to start building, but when some clown claims that England have bigger fish to fry than the Celts what do you expect us Welsh to say...'Oh yeah sorry yeah you are right we are small fish'

Taylorman wrote:England are in the awkward position of thinking things are ok. Largely this same side has put itself into positions where they can win and have fallen short. The same side has given itself a sniff of the 6N title for the last three years and for one reason or another, dropped the baton near the finish line.

That has to have a psychological effect going into this years a World Cup. Since their standout win versus the ABs they haven't play to that standard by a long way.
In the toughest pool they will need to find ways to win in five successive matches to carry this tournament. They simply don't look like a side that is prepared to do that. In Lancaster they have a coach that had a promising start, said and did the right things, but hasn't managed to get them over the line in any tournament or series.

Don't know what the answer is, and this match provided some positives, but positives don't win tournaments. They just seem to be going around and around each year.

oh dear.

i think scoring 55 points against france is going to have a very positive effect on England going into RWC. france had only conceded 2 tries in the 6 Nations prior to that game.

you can try to talk england down, but their self belief will have taken a massive step forwards after that match. putting 55 points on france is approximately 100 times as difficult as putting 50 points on Italy or Scotland.

The ireland game several weeks ago had already lost us the slam and 6Ns. everything since then has been positive. momentum will be very good going into RWC.

nice to hear your knees wobbling already.

Look like England and Wales aren't getting on too well at the minute.

But thats none of my business.

(Sorry couldn't resist)

I think Slade could slot in nicely has all the skills and the kicking game we re missing from midfield. Handy for long pens as well . I d be surprised if he doesnt get a warm up game.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Look like England and Wales aren't getting on too well at the minute

It's all a good crack mate. English fans have got their heads up their backsides which is fair enough I guess after beating Wales in Cardiff and pipping us to the second place spot they are so fond off so I think any form of positive criticism towards the England team isn't gonna go down well at the moment

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Slade could slot in nicely has all the skills and the kicking game we re missing from midfield. Handy for long pens as well . I d be surprised if he doesnt get a warm up game.

Oh I wouldn't be disappointed with that 7.5. He certainly looks to have all the attributes...but then that's what I said about Twelvetrees and you know my opinion of him

Steffan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Look like England and Wales aren't getting on too well at the minute

It's all a good crack mate. English fans have got their heads up their backsides which is fair enough I guess after beating Wales in Cardiff and pipping us to the second place spot they are so fond off so I think any form of positive criticism towards the England team isn't gonna go down well at the moment

I can assure you as an England fan I don't have my head up my backside. IN fact I couldn't care less about Wales. All im bothered about England fixing their problem areas.

Ps this is an England thread. Welsh wums coming on slating England are bound to get some back...

Steffan wrote:
I agree and I'm not one for giving history lessons as I said before anything that has happened this side of the 2011 RWC is irrelevant to all teams in my opinion as the clock goes back to zero once the RWC is over and everyone needs to start building, but when some clown claims that England have bigger fish to fry than the Celts what do you expect us Welsh to say...'Oh yeah sorry yeah you are right we are small fish'

That was one of the most recent comments and in response to two pages of Gwlad etc posting wum drivel.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:2 outside bets are Slade or Tuilagi.

Yeah 7.5 they are certainly possibilities. But as has been mentioned in this previously, Slade has never played at 12 and Manu is a 13 for me. It would be unfair to drop Joseph as soon / if Manu ever becomes fit again.  

Manu has played plenty at 12 and was taken on the Lions tour as a 12 primarily. I'd have no problems with him there. He offers everything Burrell does and more. Slade would be interesting but I think what Ford really needs outside him is strike runners. That said, Twelvetrees and Ford did a nice job together in the last 20 minutes yesterday, taking it in turns to play those little wrap around passes to Nowell etc. Burrell has unfortunately looked shaky and ill disciplined this championship. Strange that his best England form is all at 13 given he never plays there for Northampton.

One advantage I think we have before the world cup is that our players will have an extended period of time together in their pre-season. We've been one of the least settled sides until now and our players come from a wider range of clubs than Wales and Ireland so that familiarity could benefit us more than the others.

looks as though Steffan and Gwlad have a secret crush on England, just love jumping in and showing off on an England related topic. Love that dare not speak its name. Returning to topic England's young kids have less age and international experience than Wales or Ireland and this has led to (for example) white line fever vs Scotland and other self imposed pressure errors. Big improvement vs France who came in with the best defensive record on tries conceded this 6n. Crazy day as it unfolded but the confidence building from 55points on France will be to the good for the collective attitude of the squad. No comfort or satisfaction in coming second again, players or fans but we are encouraged by the trajectory. RWC will still a bit of an ask in the later stages, so far England just not ready to beat the top two but the summer camp will help blend the squad further. Mixed feelings for me.

Is the fact that England scored 55 points against a France that apparently had good defence a new moral victory? I mean, if they shipped 55 points surely their defence wasn't good at all, and that is reflected in their fourth place finish. Ireland had the best defence in the tournament and you didn't score a try against them.

England's poorest match was against Ireland away no doubt. A mixed tourny for Eng fans. But hopeful signs for this young squad...ok again I know. Thanks for your interest in England, Saint.

England were poor in Dublin (well at least for the first 60 minutes). Ireland executed their gameplan very well, but England were well below par. The other games for me there was plenty of good stuff, and some not so good stuff. Overall, the good probably outweighed the bad.

Positives: pack still doing fine, actually looked to dominate the breakdown vs France (and succeeded), hope it's been duly noted. Youngs-Ford-Joseph all had fine tournaments, Nowell looks a much better player now too. Watson had his moments, but defence a bit lacking at times. Brown was solid overall, but not up to last year's levels.

Negatives: line-out struggled, Hartley wasn't great, IC is a very large concern still.

Going forward, where does this leave them? Let's have a look at a likely-ish WC squad, if everyone were fit. Let's assume we're going with an 18-14 split, with three specialists at LH, HK, TH, SH, FH.

LH: Marler conceded a couple of pens against Scotland, but was pretty good otherwise. Vunipola adds some good carrying from the bench. Corbs (IF he stays fit) will probably make up the trio.

HK: Hartley, Youngs, and one of Webber/George? the latter's impressed me this season, stepped up well in Brits's absence, but for the WC would probably go with the one who's been in the squads (Webber). Hartley had a disappointing tournament, while Youngs did pretty well from the bench. It's not an area of concern as such, but would like Hartley to get back to last year's levels.

Locks: Lawes, Launchbury and Parling look nailed on. Parling made a difference in the last couple of matches. After that, it's anyone's guess really. Slater should be pushing, but has been unlucky with injuries. Attwood doesn't seem to bring the expected physicality. Kruis I've been quite impressed with, does most things well. Kitchener also a possibility, but I think if he were to be in the reckoning he'd have forced his way in there by now. Possible that England will go with the three mentioned with Easter/Croft as extra cover.

BR: Robshaw Vunipola Wood Haskell will all make the squad. Morgan too if fit. Good to have two very good N°8's there, while surely it's time to put the debate about whether Robshaw's a "proper 7" or not to bed? Immense tournament, and right now one of the best 7's in the world (yes I mean that)? Haskell had a fine start but tailed off, Wood back in to start? I expect both to make the squad. Croft of course in another option, though not sure England will pick three BS flankers (especially as Robshaw and Vunipola can cover there too). Kvesic? Again you'd think he'd have forced his way in had he been in serious contention.

SH: Youngs Wigglesworth and Care seem nailed on. Simpson and Dickson I guess could make a late surge.

FH: Ford and Farrell, Cipriani seems to be the back-up plan. I know people wanted to see more of him this tournament, but for me it's important that Ford get as many minutes as he can. Myler or Burns could force their way into the reckoning with some good form though.

Centres: Joseph at OC. Tuilagi should be in there too (IF fit), and then we get to the biggest problem, which is IC. Barritt, 12T, Burrell, Eastmond, even Farrell, all have their plus points, but all have their problems too. I think for Joseph to shine we do need an IC who's a decent ball player, so that probably rules Barritt out. 12T actually did pretty well off the bench in general in the 6N, but hasn't nailed down the shirt despite many opportunities. Burrell had some decent moments, but was generally not very good. Almost tempted to go for Eastmond here, get that Bath midfield together, though obviously worried re defence.

Back three: Nowell, Watson, Brown are a pretty good back three IMO. Would like Watson to improve his defence a bit though. Then you have Foden (any chance of his being fit) or Goode, and maybe May as back-ups.

Overall, I suspect about 28 or so of the squad are pretty much nailed on if fit, and most of the remaining places are squad places. The biggest concern for me is IC, where I'm genuinely not even sure what England should do...

Good analysis Mad for Chelsea. Foden, Morgan and I believe Croft are all very unlikely to be fit in time, and I am not sure about Launchbury either - he's likely to be fit but doesn't have long to regain match fitness.

Other than that, it's a good squad and the big question, as everyone knows, is the centre combination. Assuming Manu is fully fit at the end of the season, I think Lancaster will try various combinations in training and possibly in the warm-up matches. Personally, I'd prefer to see Manu and Joseph tried in a fluid 13/14 combination with an experienced 12 at 12. That could be Barritt on defensive grounds, given both Manu and JJ have had the tendency to commit too early at times.It

England have by far their best collection of backs in the last 10-12 years.

Ford, Joseph and Nowell were first class IMO.

GunsGerms wrote:England have by far their best collection of backs in the last 10-12 years.

Ford, Joseph and Nowell were first class IMO.

cheers guns. agree with that obviously.

also think angryman brown was really good all tournament, and sorely, sorely missed against ireland.

They just need time playing together. But do we go for ANOTHER 12 or stick with Burrell? Twelvetrees? Eastmond? Barritt?

Well the English attack put fifty-five points past a team who had only conceded 46 (?) in the previous four games. The line-out is still good, in spite of the changes at lock, and the scrum is more than decent. England can summon fantastic intensity at the breakdown, but seemingly struggle to replicate it on a consistent basis.

Overall, as long as England remain relatively injury-free, the semi-finals should be the minimum expectation for 2015.

For me there are 5 things that need to be worked on in order to take England to the next level.

1. Lineout Accuracy. For me the job of a hooker is to nail his set piece first and foremost, anything after that is a bonus, and in that regard we have struggled. Hartley has struggled with a dip in form, but has been missing his go to men from last year and club mates, Lawes and Wood. Bringing them back in will assist him no end. The problem for me though lies in the 16 shirt. For all his excellence as an all-round player, he is pretty damn poor at throwing in the lineout and this has been shown time and time again over the past 2 seasons. For me he has to go. Webber may have dropped in form of late but a lot of that could be attributed to the loss of his place to Youngs. He went very well in the summer in Youngs' absence and again in the Autumn. Give him the backup shirt.

2. Scrum Dominance. England’s scrum hasn’t been the force it can be this passed 6N’s. They are solid enough on their own ball however we are not challenging the opposition anywhere near enough. Is this a mind-set issue? Are they being told to save themselves in order to get around the park more? If so, are we getting the ascendancy out wide as a result of saving ourselves? If they are being told to hold back I would say we’re not getting the ascendancy we would expect as a result. Dominating a team in the scrum offers so many advantages from territory through penalties and turnovers, mentally dominating the opposite pack, but also tiring them out to give you the ascendancy out wide. If it is a mind-set issue that can be changed, if it’s that we’re not as strong scrummaging as we used to be then that’s different. Would a return to Cole Hartley Corbisiero help here?

3. Back 5 Balance. I was a big champion of having more muscle in the pack and thus the inclusion of Haskell, thinking that this wouldn't impact too greatly on our set piece but looking back now I can see I was wrong. Wood looked very good from the bench in the last 2 games and offers a lot of lineout stability whilst also being very busy around the park. He was poor in the Autumn but I wonder whether he was trying too hard due to the form of Haskell. Also I have noticed how we have missed his line speed in defence, last year he worked really well with Robshaw, Lawes and Launchbury in shutting down the opposition. Also the quicker we get Launchbury back the better. We miss his work around the park and the work rate he puts in, along with Robshaw and Wood allows the big ball carriers to carry and the big hitters to rush and hit. A must for me.

4. Bench Composition. England’s new found depth means they could field a very strong bench, providing everyone is fit and firing. But to get it right they need to make a decision on what they want the bench to achieve. Do they go for jack of all trades or specialists. I think they have the depth to allow for the specialists, to maintain ascendancy in key areas such as the set piece, whilst also offering the impact we require. With a fully fit squad, having proper 2nd row cover is a must for me, as is having proper outside back cover. Imagine playing the last 20 against Ireland with Brown on the wing and Cipriani at fullback?

5. Answer the Inside Centre Question. For me the biggest issue, and if Lancaster can find the answer then England really will be challengers come Autumn. The problem Lancaster has though is that none of the contenders tick all the boxes of what he wants to achieve. For me there are only 3 contenders left for the RWC now. As much as people want Eastmond or Slade, I think if Lancaster was going to go down that route, he would’ve used it in the last couple of games. Burrell, despite being the incumbent, has been poor and Twelvetrees, despite having all the skillset required lacks the composure required at this level (and I say that as a former champion of his).

The three left are Barrett, Tuilagi and Farrell. Barrett is the defensive organiser and physical presence we need on the gainline but offers less than Burrell in attack. Tuilagi is the complete physical package and would offer the additional running power to compliment the pack, but lacks the distribution skillset to release the wide players. Farrell offers everything we need defensively and distribution and could help Ford with the game management but offers little running threat.

For me, he needs to try Tuilagi and Joseph alongside Ford in the warmup games. It has the potential to be very good going forward and having Farrell off the bench later in the game could allow England to then spread the ball wide and play expansive.

My 22 for the Wales game (injuries permitting):

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Nowell
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. Webber
17. Marler
18. Wilson
19. Attwood
20. Vunipola
21. Care
22. Farrell
23. May

I'm sure SL will look at Tuilagi at 12 in training, but I still think it will be Farrell who plays there in the WC. He's played outside of Ford at age-group level, and with JJ, Nowell, Watson and Brown I don't think we need desperately need a carrier or runner at 12 (not that it wouldn't be nice to have one as long as they can kick and pass too).

Post WC it will probably be Slade. Apart from probably being the most rounded back of his generation (and it's a good generation for England) he's a decent size and has a track record of being able to run a backline. Seeing as he's played both 10 and 13 I'm pretty sure he understands how 12 works.

Scoring 55 points against a French side that was trying is a fantastic achievement - one better future England sides will probably never match. I think they should get some credit for that.

thomh wrote:Dropping it not forwards and then landing on it with your stomach would be fine, obviously

Correct - thanks for explaining it to him thomh.  I don't know what law he was trying to make up suggesting there was any difference between dropping a ball straight down or backwards (i.e. no knock on) in the in-goal area versus in the main field of play. I don't know where this phrase of being in control in the act of scoring keeps coming from. You can score by either holding the ball in your hands/arms and touching it on the ground - or apply downward pressure to a ball that's on the ground already.

Steffan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Look like England and Wales aren't getting on too well at the minute

It's all a good crack mate. English fans have got their heads up their backsides which is fair enough I guess after beating Wales in Cardiff and pipping us to the second place spot they are so fond off so I think any form of positive criticism towards the England team isn't gonna go down well at the moment

Now now Steffan, that sounds close to 'wild generalisations' territory. I'd say plenty of us are actively looking for 'positive' criticism.

The major positive we can take is we clearly have the beating of Wales which is quite an important factor as they'll be in our WC group.

Past that, we need to improve to beat the big boys.

At Twickenham we can (not necessarily will) beat Wales, Australia and Ireland. Should all 3 happen we are in the final I think, where anything supposedly can happen. Cannot see us beating SA or NZ though in a month of Sundays.

I can't see Wales being an issue as we've had little trouble against them over the last 2 seasons.

I wouldn't be 100% confident about beating Ireland at home but I'd still fancy our chances. SA & NZ are different beasts, we've had an issue matching SA's physicality over the last 10 years or so. Maybe going all out attack with Ford pulling the strings will get a different result?

I could see SA targetting Ford for a series of slightly late and slightly high challenges.

He'll just pick himself up. Seems unflappable that lad.

I can see SA putting themselves under pressure and imploding in a final. I can't see NZ doing that though.

To be honest if we made the final I would be stunned, inconsistency has plagued this England side so far.

England did play very well against France - creating plenty of chances.

Nathan you are right, England have created a lot of chances.

What you do forget though is that for Lancaster's England, 13 is generally one of the top try scorers - whether that's Joseph,Burrell or Manu. Joseph had a good 6 nations but will he be the same next 6 nations? Also Ireland shut him down with ease.

I said before the French game, England should have dropped Burrell,Haskell and Hartley - it was no coincidence that they were 3 of the weakest players.

I would start T.Youngs, Wood and Barritt instead.


Geordiefalcon totally agree.

England have lacked the reliability of Barritt at 12. He gives you that leadership in the midfield that was missing against Ireland and France. Plus he has that warrior spirit.

Ford is a little guy, I still feel he needs a comfortable blanket against teams that will try and rough him up. Ireland and Sexton completely bullied and bossed Ford. You could imagine the likes of SA and NZ trying the same.

What was the crack with Hartley this 6n. Look a shadow of himself. If they have told him to watch his discipline then they have spoilt him as a player.

To be honest if we made the final I would be stunned, inconsistency has plagued this England side so far.

Yappy I totally agree.
Jeckyll and Hyde team.

The performance against France, the scores of missed chances against Scotland then the lethargic, underwhelmed performance in Ireland.

You cant play like that and win a WC.

jamesandimac wrote:For me there are 5 things that need to be worked on in order to take England to the next level.  

1.  Lineout Accuracy.  For me the job of a hooker is to nail his set piece first and foremost, anything after that is a bonus, and in that regard we have struggled.  Hartley has struggled with a dip in form, but has been missing his go to men from last year and club mates, Lawes and Wood.  Bringing them back in will assist him no end.  The problem for me though lies in the 16 shirt.  For all his excellence as an all-round player, he is pretty damn poor at throwing in the lineout and this has been shown time and time again over the past 2 seasons.  For me he has to go.  Webber may have dropped in form of late but a lot of that could be attributed to the loss of his place to Youngs.  He went very well in the summer in Youngs' absence and again in the Autumn.  Give him the backup shirt.

2.  Scrum Dominance.  England’s scrum hasn’t been the force it can be this passed 6N’s.  They are solid enough on their own ball however we are not challenging the opposition anywhere near enough.  Is this a mind-set issue?  Are they being told to save themselves in order to get around the park more?  If so, are we getting the ascendancy out wide as a result of saving ourselves? If they are being told to hold back I would say we’re not getting the ascendancy we would expect as a result.  Dominating a team in the scrum offers so many advantages from territory through penalties and turnovers, mentally dominating the opposite pack, but also tiring them out to give you the ascendancy out wide.  If it is a mind-set issue that can be changed, if it’s that we’re not as strong scrummaging as we used to be then that’s different.  Would a return to Cole Hartley Corbisiero help here?

3.  Back 5 Balance.  I was a big champion of having more muscle in the pack and thus the inclusion of Haskell, thinking that this wouldn't impact too greatly on our set piece but looking back now I can see I was wrong.  Wood looked very good from the bench in the last 2 games and offers a lot of lineout stability whilst also being very busy around the park.  He was poor in the Autumn but I wonder whether he was trying too hard due to the form of Haskell.  Also I have noticed how we have missed his line speed in defence, last year he worked really well with Robshaw, Lawes and Launchbury in shutting down the opposition.  Also the quicker we get Launchbury back the better.  We miss his work around the park and the work rate he puts in, along with Robshaw and Wood allows the big ball carriers to carry and the big hitters to rush and hit.  A must for me.

4.  Bench Composition.  England’s new found depth means they could field a very strong bench, providing everyone is fit and firing.  But to get it right they need to make a decision on what they want the bench to achieve.   Do they go for jack of all trades or specialists.  I think they have the depth to allow for the specialists, to maintain ascendancy in key areas such as the set piece, whilst also offering the impact we require.  With a fully fit squad, having proper 2nd row cover is a must for me, as is having proper outside back cover.   Imagine playing the last 20 against Ireland with Brown on the wing and Cipriani at fullback?

5.  Answer the Inside Centre Question.  For me the biggest issue, and if Lancaster can find the answer then England really will be challengers come Autumn.  The problem Lancaster has though is that none of the contenders tick all the boxes of what he wants to achieve.  For me there are only 3 contenders left for the RWC now.  As much as people want Eastmond or Slade, I think if Lancaster was going to go down that route, he would’ve used it in the last couple of games.  Burrell, despite being the incumbent, has been poor and Twelvetrees, despite having all the skillset required lacks the composure required at this level (and I say that as a former champion of his).

The three left are Barrett, Tuilagi and Farrell.  Barrett is the defensive organiser and physical presence we need on the gainline but offers less than Burrell in attack.  Tuilagi is the complete physical package and would offer the additional running power to compliment the pack, but lacks the distribution skillset to release the wide players.  Farrell offers everything we need defensively and distribution and could help Ford with the game management but offers little running threat.  

For me, he needs to try Tuilagi and Joseph alongside Ford in the warmup games.  It has the potential to be very good going forward and having Farrell off the bench later in the game could allow England to then spread the ball wide and play expansive.

Good analysis. To tackle each of the points:
1. Lineout. I think that's a bit harsh on Youngs, to be honest. He had a couple of wayward throws, but so did Hartley. Youngs's problem is familiarity with his jumpers - he was generally solid when Parling was on, less so when it was, say, Easter and Lawes. But Lancaster will be able work with and pick from Hartley, Youngs and Webber over the summer.

2. Scrum. Bear in mind that Cole was only just back from injury at the start of the 6N, and the lock combination was unfamiliar. Ireland did a very good job on England - something they will need to be wary of in the future - but assuming Cole and Wilson can both go into camp fit, England should be able to settle. I think it's still a doubt whether Corbisiero will be fully fit, but even if he isn't, England have options.

3. Back 5 Balance. Agreed. Vunipola's new found energy means Haskell's carrying is less important, and I am tired of Haskell's stupid penalties.

4. Bench Composition. I am not entirely sure I agree. In the backs you will inevitably have to have at least one player who can cover multiple positions. Since you generally need specialist 9 cover, you look at what positions your 22 can play and then adapt for that. Farrell can cover 10 and centre, which would allow for a fullback/wing. Cipriani covers 10 & 15, which would allow for an additional centre.

In the forwards, the number of lineout jumpers is probably more important than specialist lock cover. Wood is very good in the lineout, and Robshaw is better than he's given credit for, which means Easter (also a good lineout option) offers reasonable cover for 4 & 8. I think Lancaster values that having seen the wheels fall off without a proper 8. Any mix is going to be a compromise; but I can remember an horrendous game in 2005 (?) when England played 50 minutes with Ben Kay at blindside flanker - it cuts both ways.

5. Inside Centre. I probably favour Barritt at the moment, if Tuilagi and Joseph are both fit at the end of the season. As I've said above, I'd like to see those two tried in a 13/14 combination. Barritt's distribution is under-rated, and when you have the option of hitting Tuilagi, Joseph, Nowell or Brown with a pass as the situation dictates, you don't need to be as much of a threat ball in hand. Farrell, if fit, would also be an option - especially against a team like Ireland where a second kicking option would have been very helpful. What I don't want to see is Ford / Eastmond / Joseph. Robshaw put in a heck of a lot of tackles this 6N to provide some defensive support for Ford, but even he would struggle to cover for all 3. At international level at least one of the centres needs to be a defensive captain.

The good news is that with a lot of options - Barrritt, 36, Burrell, Farrell, Tuilagi, Slade - things can be tried in training and in the warmup games, and the best combinations picked.