State of the team: England

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

Hughes hasn't done his 3 years yet has he?

I'd take Clark over Burgess as backup.

Hughes is eligible next year.

Outside the back row specialists, half our locks can turn their hand to blindside to some degree, so we aren't short in that area.

Haskell has been a bit of a disappointment since his bright return to the starting XV. He demonstrated some old bad habits, and hasn't been in such great form for Wasps. He really ought to have done a better job with his team against 14 man Leicester.

For all the talk about getting the right centre pairing, I'm still unconvinced we have good, consistent balance in the back row. When all goes well, and the ref likes us, we look fine. We don't look so hot in adversity, and generally don't have bench options to change the mix. I doubt Burgess is the answer but I'd like us to explore some options there.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd take Clark over Burgess as backup.

Hughes is eligible next year.

World rugby is discussing residency rule changes, so he might not be dependant on if/when they come into force

Rugby Fan wrote:Outside the back row specialists, half our locks can turn their hand to blindside to some degree, so we aren't short in that area.

Haskell has been a bit of a disappointment since his bright return to the starting XV. He demonstrated some old bad habits, and hasn't been in such great form for Wasps. He really ought to have done a better job with his team against 14 man Leicester.

For all the talk about getting the right centre pairing, I'm still unconvinced we have good, consistent balance in the back row. When all goes well, and the ref likes us, we look fine. We don't look so hot in adversity, and generally don't have bench options to change the mix. I doubt Burgess is the answer but I'd like us to explore some options there.

I agree completely , and I said in previous threads POST WC Lancaster needs to look at the set up of the back row.

Of course that depends on which players we have available and how they are performing. We cant knock Lancaster for who he's picked...as Robshaw and Wood...HAVE been the best performing back rowers.

OK. I reckon he'll pick 45+ and an injury list. I also think do something with Armitage and Abendanon (like stick them on an on-call list) just to placate the media. Squad:

LH: Marler, Mako, Corbisiero, Mullan
Hooker: Hartley, Youngs, Webber, Cowan-Dickie
TH: Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas
Lock: Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Attwood, Itoje, Kruis
BS: Wood, Haskell, Burgess, Ewers
OS: Robshaw, Kvesic, Armitage
8: Billy, Morgan (Listed), Easter

SH: Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth, Dickson, Simpson (Listed)
FH: Ford, Farrell, Cipriani, Slade
C: Joseph, Burrell, Tuilagi (Listed), Daly, Eastmond, 12T, Barritt
W: Nowell, Watson, Ashton, Yarde, Wade
FB: Brown, Goode, Abendanon

Here's my list. Solid to shaky.......

Robshaw
Hartley
Youngs (Ben)
Youngs (Tom)
Cole
Marler
Vunipola (Mako)
Vunipola (Billy) (Injured List?)
Ford
Farrell
Joseph
Watson
Nowell
May
Launchbury
Lawes
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Haskell
Care
Wilson
Brown
Goode
Corbisiero
Barritt
Tuilagi (IL)
Cipriani
Wigglesworth
Burrell
Webber
Brookes
Mullan
Thomas
Kvesic
Morgan (IL)
Ashton
Yarde
Daly
Slade
Burgess
Itoje
Easter
Dickson
Eastmond
Twelvetrees
Kruis
Cowan-Dickie
Simpson (IL)
Ewers
Armitage (Stand-by)
Abendanon (SB)

How far away could we be from something like...

1 Marler
2 Cowan Dickie
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 Launchbury
6 Itoje
7 Kvesic
8 Ben / Billy

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 Watson
12 Hill / Stephenson
13 Joseph / Manu
14 Wade
15 Nowell

When Cowen Dickie learns to throw and Wade to tackle I imagine GF

Also when Manu can play more than 3mins without getting injured.

spaynter wrote: I also think do something with Armitage and Abendanon (like stick them on an on-call list) just to placate the media. (SB)

He 'd have should call up kevin pietersen if he wants to shut the media up


The debate with Armitage is always about his French status ... but given hes still facing an assault charge thats really a red herring. Theres simply no way he can be called up in these circumstances, Care was exiled for weeing in a pot. Seriously injuring a fan in a restaurant is a bit beyond the level of saucing a hotel worker, kissing an ex, tossing off a dwarf or going for a swim in your pants.

Gooseberry wrote:

spaynter wrote: I also think do something with Armitage and Abendanon (like stick them on an on-call list) just to placate the media.  (SB)

He 'd have should call up kevin pietersen if he wants to shut the media up  


The debate with Armitage is always about his French status ... but given hes still facing an assault charge thats really a red herring. Theres simply no way he can be called up in these circumstances, Care was exiled for weeing in a pot. Seriously injuring a fan in a restaurant is a bit beyond the level of saucing a hotel worker, kissing an ex, tossing off a dwarf or going for a swim in your pants.

Tindall was tossing off a dwarf! Now that really would have been a story!

Gooseberry wrote:

spaynter wrote: I also think do something with Armitage and Abendanon (like stick them on an on-call list) just to placate the media.  (SB)

He 'd have should call up kevin pietersen if he wants to shut the media up  


The debate with Armitage is always about his French status ... but given hes still facing an assault charge thats really a red herring. Theres simply no way he can be called up in these circumstances, Care was exiled for weeing in a pot. Seriously injuring a fan in a restaurant is a bit beyond the level of saucing a hotel worker, kissing an ex, tossing off a dwarf or going for a swim in your pants.

Theres also an argument that Kvesic is performing outstanding in a Glos side that's not setting the world alight. And hes captaincy material and theres no baggage with him so if you want a 7 why pick Armitage anyway?

Post WC how about this as a fantasy back five: -

Launchbury
Lawes
Burgress
Itoje
Vunipola

Don't recognise the Burgress bloke, but if you want to add a known performer how about:

Launchbury
Lawes
Vunipola
Itoje
Morgan

Lacking a 7 though, I don't think any of your three or my three are a match for Robshaw at 7 or ever will be.

with Burgess wearing 20 for a while at least after the RWC to gain experience. Playing well at 6 in the AP is very different from playing against top 8 international sides.

Burgess is a rare case as he's from league so to an extent he has a lot of experience. I still expect him to start at 6 at least once in the warm ups and go to the world cup.

Robshaw wont be discarded straight after the WC...but if Kvesic stays in this form (which he's shown for Wuss also) then he will rightly challenge for that 7 spot.

6 could be wide open

8 Is a straight shout between Billy and Ben

Robshaw is a very good player and we are very very lucky to have him.

I would expect Burgess to be able to make the move up to international level very well, but it is going to be a while before he manages every trick in the blindside book, and it is not like we don't have interesting alternatives. It is good news he is getting the hang of the breakdown though.

Inevitably Hughes as well for the 8 spot, like it or not.

Nah, Robshaw won't be discarded after the World Cup. He is only 28/29 and as England captain unlikely to be swayed by the ovetures from the Top 14. I would say he has another three-four years in him at least (possibly another World Cup too).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Inevitably Hughes as well for the 8 spot, like it or not.

Agree, although I don't like it.

Our team will have more accents than the united nations!!

Manu Tuilagi
Billy Vunipola
Mako Vunipola
Nathan Hughes
Brad Barritt
Dylan Hartley
etc etc

GF
Add in Ashton and Burgess for accents that rather differ from the 'public school toff' stereotype of the England player.

Also, what does Yarde sound like? Presumably still has some of his St Lucian accent, same as Mako still sometimes sounds Welsh

It's only Hughes I'd have an issue with. Stupid 3 year rule but it is what it is.

dummy_half wrote:GF
Add in Ashton and Burgess for accents that rather differ from the 'public school toff' stereotype of the England player.

Also, what does Yarde sound like? Presumably still has some of his St Lucian accent, same as Mako still sometimes sounds Welsh

yes he does sound Welsh doesn't he.....

Ah im not whinging about all of those I listed....most are legit...Hughes I do have an issue with. But as you, SGt and others have said...it is what it is. And until the World Rugby sort it out...it will continue to go on.

Cumbrian wrote:Nah, Robshaw won't be discarded after the World Cup. He is only 28/29 and as England captain unlikely to be swayed by the ovetures from the Top 14. I would say he has another three-four years in him at least (possibly another World Cup too).

Lancaster probably thinks the same way, but he might experiment with a new captain after RWC. I wouldn't mind seeing Robshaw and Kvesic tried together, but a lot depends on Burgess. I think he'll be tried at 6 sooner rather than later, in 2016 if not the RWC warm-ups. If he cuts it at international level, then that probably extends Robshaw's tenure as his work-rate at the breakdown covers for any deficiency Burgess might have there.

I also think Jack Clifford will come through in the next RWC cycle - possibly as a direct replacement for Robshaw. He's been lining up at 6 with Robshaw and Easter the last few weeks, and I can't shake the feeling that if he stays fit he will be better than either of them.

Clifford wins Supporters' Player, Players Player and Young Player of the Season.

http://www.quins.co.uk/news/clifford-takes-the-spoils-at-harlequins-end-of-season-awards-dinner/

What will Cliffords natural position be...?

Clifford has been playing very well, he looks like a smart rugby player, it will be interesting to see which position he settles in, I believe he captained the side from 8 at the U20s but there is a lot of competition for that place. Although he'd cover the entire backrow from the bench. I'd prefer him on the bench to Burgess in that respect.

Burgess shouldn't be in the WC squad IMO, he should get a break and do pre-season, I don't think he's going to win us the world cup at this stage!

I have to say Kvesic has been playing well whenever I have watched him but the recent red card has meant he's banned for 3 weeks, not great timing.

Not sure. I'd say blindside if he wants to play for England but he could definitely do an all-action job at openside as well. He broke through at 8 but he's not the biggest, though he does have great hands and footwork, and can get the ball out of a retreating scrum with no problem.

thomh wrote:Not sure. I'd say blindside if he wants to play for England but he could definitely do an all-action job at openside as well. He broke through at 8 but he's not the biggest, though he does have great hands and footwork, and can get the ball out of a retreating scrum with no problem.

He's got all the skills to be a No 8 but he's not as powerful as Billy or Ben, both of whom are bigger and young enough that they're not going anywhere soon. He looks equally comfortable at 6 or 7 though, and fast enough to be a real asset in either position.

By the way, there's good form for players who sweep the boards like that at the Quins end of season dinner: the last two to do it were Nick Easter and Mike Brown (who I think also picked up Try of the Season, but was pipped to the Mike Brown Award for Being Mike Brown by Ross Chisholm).

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Don't recognise the Burgress bloke, but if you want to add a known performer how about:

Launchbury
Lawes
Vunipola
Itoje
Morgan

Lacking a 7 though, I don't think any of your three or my three are a match for Robshaw at 7 or ever will be.

with Burgess wearing 20 for a while at least after the RWC to gain experience. Playing well at 6 in the AP is very different from playing against top 8 international sides.

Well Past it I like it though I would change it slightly.


I want to see this pack:

1.Vunipola
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Vunipola
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

Gives you 3 big ball carriers in the pack. You might say that Marler shouldn't be dropped - perhaps not but I personally want to see Mako whose scrummaging isn't as bad as made out, he also makes a load of tackles and his carrying is superior.

It's a shame Mako's scrummaging isn't better as he's strong in the loose. He's a bit off Marler's standard imo, him and Cole are certs for me.

Yeah I would agree about Mako.

For all his carrying etc...I just cant get past his scrimmaging. Id rather we found a carrier elsewhere...ironic as Marler was a great carrier who's never brought that to this level.

I believe that Mako's scrummaging will improve, he's still only 24. Once he hits 28-29 he should be a fearsome prospect for any team to face (assuming he maintains his carrying ability).

Mako Vunipola is the ideal front row impact player/ replacement for me. To have both Vunipolas, T Youngs, Brookes and Attwood coming off the bench for England would bring in great work rate and good ball carriers. As long as Brookes doesn't give away stupid penalties.

Starting with Marler, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw and Morgan. I'm not sure if that pack has ever started together, and I believe it would match anyone. Especially with the half backs we now have. Hopefully all our injuries are now behind us, and all these are fit for the World Cup.

If we were picking the pack purely on ball carrying then Waldrom would be back in with a shout. Unfortunately he still cant touch his toes.

Gooseberry wrote:If we were picking the pack purely on ball carrying then Waldrom would be back in with a shout. Unfortunately he still cant touch his toes.

Can Billy?

Much though I thought the tank engine's time had come and gone you have to respect what he has done this year, and he does have a great reputation for work rate 'padding' or no. I don't know if he can line up anywhere apart from 8. Billy does play 6 a lot and Easter plays at lock which gives them more flexibilitu

Gooseberry wrote:If we were picking the pack purely on ball carrying then Waldrom would be back in with a shout. Unfortunately he still cant touch his toes.

If it came down to it at the World Cup, I would have no problem with Waldrom at 8 if B Vunipola and Morgan weren't available. Hopefully Wood never considered there again.

On a positive note Brown is apparently back training and will be fit for the England squad get together. He just isn't being risked in the game this weekend where there is nothing to play for.

I think we all know exactly or near enough what team will run out if everyone is fully fit.
As to how that team will perform....im just not sure at all. If we click...we are a very tough team to beat....but can also be inconsistent / ponderous and unable to change our game (see Ireland this year)

The real interesting one from me is the changes post WC. There is a number of JWC winners etc coming through in positions we are quite weak...and in a few other positions aswell that I believe will strengthen those positions.

It will be great to see how they fair

lostinwales wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:If we were picking the pack purely on ball carrying then Waldrom would be back in with a shout. Unfortunately he still cant touch his toes.

Can Billy?

Much though I thought the tank engine's time had come and gone you have to respect what he has done this year, and he does have a great reputation for work rate 'padding' or no. I don't know if he can line up anywhere apart from 8. Billy does play 6 a lot and Easter plays at lock which gives them more flexibilitu

Yep but then Easter won his recall by being hands down the best 8 in the country two years running. OK Waldrom is only 1 season into his renaissance but he is breaking records all over the place. Certainly theres no argument if you want a ball carrying try scoring 8 hes your man, its always been his thing and this year its really come back to the fore...alongside his fitness, which both Billy an Morgan have had question marks against in the past.
Is he too much of a one trick pony and too much of an outsider now though? Yes most likely he is. Great signing for Exeter on that basis.

The transformation of Billy V from a 50 minute player (if you are lucky) to the tireless unstoppable trundling machine we have now seems quite miraculous.

Austin Healey points out in his Telegraph column that Mike Catt wasn't in the original World Cup training squad but played a key part in the 2003 tournament.

He says that coaches can suddenly be struck by the need to add something new or different to the mix, which can open the door to a bolter.

I don't think Billy gets enough credit for his work rate at the breakdowns and tackling etc either LIW.

Jaques Burger once said that Billy was one of the hardest working players at the club. High praise coming from Burger.

I think the final world cup squad will be very predictable for many reasons with very few surprises unless there are injuries.  The only main change may be the need to include more utility players, which is not normally necessary (or even desirable).  Possibly Slade might get the nod over Twelvetrees as centre /fly-half  cover since he is more adroit at playing fly-half (assuming Manu, Barritt, Joseph, Burrell are all fit).

The squad by definition has to be fairly conservative (unless there are injuries) and I would expect very few uncapped players.  Really the Scotland match was the time to try a few changes with the World cup in mind, and this did not happen.

Post world cup, things could open up a bit.

Cb

I said before...I think the squad will be very predictable.

The only real "wild cards" I see is...

Slade
Burgess

Goerdie,
I agree with you. I think more of the drama will come with the actual game selections. I certainly would like to see Slade get some quality game time in the pre-RWC preparation matches. Since Burgess is likely in the training squad, we ought to see him in those matches too. Will tell us whether he has the goods at this point in time or not.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Geordiefalcon you're right actually - perhaps Ewers is not on Lancaster's radar - I might change that in my 45 squad - Ksevic and Waldrom probably have a higher chance as it stands.

I think Lancaster has missed a chance with him...big tough 6/8.

Ewers played for England against the Barbarians last summer, trained with the England squad in the lead up to the AIs and played for the Saxons a few months back, so he's definitely on Lancaster's radar.  I think the issue is that in the coaches' opinions Haskell has the spot in the squad that he would fill and they want to retain that experience for the WC.  Post tournament I think we'll see Ewers drafted in as Haskell drops out.

May. Express speed plus added afterburners. Improving this season.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Inevitably Hughes as well for the 8 spot, like it or not.

Agree, although I don't like it.

Our team will have more accents than the united nations!!

Manu Tuilagi
Billy Vunipola
Mako Vunipola
Nathan Hughes
Brad Barritt
Dylan Hartley
etc etc

Are we saying that manu's Leicester accent is now from a different country. I mean come on, I know we have a bad accent (well if your from the city) but to completely disown it....

Gooseberry wrote:If we were picking the pack purely on ball carrying then Waldrom would be back in with a shout. Unfortunately he still cant touch his toes.

He was constantly one of the fittest at Tigers despite his belly

nathan wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:If we were picking the pack purely on ball carrying then Waldrom would be back in with a shout. Unfortunately he still cant touch his toes.

He was constantly one of the fittest at Tigers despite his belly

Yeah I wouldnt question his fitness and high work rate but really lacks agility, a particular problem at the breakdown. I cant remember the exact words but Cockerill joked something along the lines of him not being able to pick the ball up over his belly. He also lacks speed and can often be beaten to the action by others. The way the international game is going at the minute it can be a real problem if your back row players arent keeping up which presumably is why he isnt anything more than a fringe candidate. But he deserve recognition for refinding his form and the attributes that got him caps at a time when Billy V and Ben Morgan werent a thing, and some of the criticism he got was clearly unfair.

Hes also managed to avoid being arrested for his entire career which by England player standards seems pretty good going these days.